Sponsor Message:
Civil Aviation Forum
My Starred Topics | Profile | New Topic | Forum Index | Help | Search 
Japan-Europe Night Flights  
User currently offlineUpperDeck79 From Finland, joined Feb 2005, 1139 posts, RR: 2
Posted (11 years 3 months 18 hours ago) and read 5098 times:

Is the Air France flight AF277 NRT-CDG 2155-0435+1 the only direct flight from Japan to Europe which leaves in the evening and lands the next morning?

There are plenty of night flights from HKG, which is about the same distance and time zone, so why not more from Japan? 10+ hours during the day gets quite boring...

AY and ANA rock!
13 replies: All unread, jump to last
User currently offlineHB-IWC From Indonesia, joined Sep 2000, 4652 posts, RR: 69
Reply 1, posted (11 years 3 months 17 hours ago) and read 5032 times:

The problem with overnight operations from Japan, Korea and Hongkong to Europe is that they typically lead to extended ground times in Asia, and therefore bring down the aircraft utilization rates and increase parking and terminal fees.

In order for a Europe-bound flight to arrive early in the morning after an overnight flight from Japan, this flight should leave Japan late in the evening. However, the inbound flight from Europe typically arrives in Japan in the late morning or afternoon hours. As the ground time would be too long, thereby jeopardizing utilization rates, and airports in Japan are typically very expensive when it comes to parking and terminal fees, the airlines prefer to return to Europe after minimal ground times and on a daylight operation.

As such almost all flights from Japan and Korea to Europe are operated as daylight flights. Even from Hongkong, airlines like KLM and Lufthansa, and when they still flew there Alitalia, operate according to operational patterns whereby they leave Europe in the late afternoon and arrive in Hongkong in the morning, make a quick turnaround and return to Europe as a daylight operation. The same operating pattern goes for many Europe-China flights.

If airlines choose to operate according to a double overnight pattern, they typically leave Europe in the evening, arrive in Asia in the early afternoon, and depart again late in the evening for an early arrival in Europe. In such cases, unless the airline operates an additional tag-on within Asia, the aircraft will be on the ground for anywhere between 4 and 10 hours, which is obviously not a desirable solution.

As an example, look at Lufthansa's Hongkong operation: the daily FRA-HKG flight returns as a daylight operation and has a ground time in HKG of 1h55 (arr.1130/dep.1325); Lufthansa's thrice weekly MUC-HKG operates according to a double overnight pattern and has a ground time of 7h35(arr.15.50/dep.2325).

Now, as for your Air France example, the airline keeps ground time at Tokyo down by leaving CDG very late in the evening and arrive NRT the next evening. It leaves NRT after almost 3 hours of ground time (arr.1900/dep.2155), which is still rather long and thus costly (NRT ground crews will turn around any widebody within 1h45 max), and arrives in Europe very early in the morning at 04.35, an arrival time which is far from commercially interesting. A more optimal arrival time at CDG would demand a departure from NRT around midnight, just as is the case at HKG and other airports in the region like SIN, BKK and KUL, which would lead to increased ground time at NRT and problems with the airport's night curfew.

All in all, it never ceases to amaze me how people keep on moaning about daylight operations from Asia to Europe and how overnight flights on this sector tend to be better booked than daylight flights. Note that flights between Europe and the West Coast of the US and Canada are equally long, operate according to the same operational patterns, and nobody seems to care about the long daylight westbound flights.

User currently offlineHailstone From Germany, joined Nov 2000, 413 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (11 years 3 months 13 hours ago) and read 4905 times:

i still think that the AF model is quite smart, even if it leads to almost 3 hours of ground time at NRT for the evening return flight.

at present one has to stay overnight in TYO with usually an idle morning in order to make it to NRT in time (factor three hours departure from town before flight time, in order to be on the safe side), loosing the entire workday, by sitting on the pnae arriving in europe in the late afternoon - early evening.

with the AF flight at night one saves tons of time and i believe that AF is being rewarded from a utilization point of view (hopefully also from a yield point of view): when i flew with them on AF277, the flight was 100% packed in all three classes - also with plenty of connex traffic via CDG into other european destinations - granted that one will have another 2 - 3 hours of ground time at CDG in order to get onto the connexes, but i found the timing excellent.

maybe somebody can pull up AF's reservations system and see how well AF277 is booked in comparison to AF275 and 279 as well as the european competition

User currently offlineQantas077 From Australia, joined Jan 2004, 5954 posts, RR: 36
Reply 3, posted (11 years 3 months 12 hours ago) and read 4855 times:

the AF evening flight is i believe originated in the Sth Pacific then onwards to Paris from NRT, only reason why it's a night flight is because of it's arrival enroute to CDG via NRT.

not sure if the flight still operates to and from the sth pacific or not though.

the major issue with overnight flights from NRT is the curfew, if they have tech delays the flight is pretty much stuffed til 6am, hence all day flights ex NRT and arvo arrivals or midmorning, most of it is due to curfew and thats most of the reason that they all depart by day.

[Edited 2005-02-28 17:18:26]

a true friend is someone who sees the pain in your eyes, while everyone else believes the smile on your face.
User currently offlineBabybus From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 4, posted (11 years 3 months 6 hours ago) and read 4714 times:

I've done this NRT-CDG night flight and I have to say it was extremely convenient. I could get up late. Have a full day in Tokyo and a leisurely late evening trip to the airport. The check-in starts about 7.30pm and the terminal at this time is virtually empty meaning no queues anywhere and plenty of seats to spread out in.

Before this I was allergic to long haul night flights but the combination a non chaotic Narita airport in the evening and Air France cured me for ever.


User currently onlineCarpethead From Japan, joined Aug 2004, 3049 posts, RR: 3
Reply 5, posted (11 years 3 months 5 hours ago) and read 4681 times:

As some have mentioned the curfew at NRT plus not sufficient difference in local departure to local arrival makes Japan/Korea-European flights worthwhile. There is sufficient local departure & local arrival for SE Asia-Europe flights to make this worthwhile and no curfews at these airports.

I know some who want to skimp out on one night of lodging in Europe to travel from Japan to Europe via HKG or SE Asia.

User currently offlineIluv747400 From United States of America, joined Jan 2000, 372 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (11 years 3 months 3 hours ago) and read 4610 times:

Air France no longer operates flights from the South Pacific to Tokyo. Aircalin and Air Tahiti Nui took over the routes from Noumea and Papeete, respectively.

User currently offlineKtachiya From Japan, joined Sep 2004, 1859 posts, RR: 1
Reply 7, posted (11 years 3 months ago) and read 4530 times:

This twilight express as they call it, calls an extra-routing.

That is, they fly a different route from the rest and fly for 14hr and 30 min. This I read about two years ago in a magazine. As a proof, other flights AF operate take 12.5 hr but this takes 14.5.

I would like to see what kind of routing this takes.

Does anybody know although the routing is different, the aircraft operates out of Sekiyado 4 departure, Niigata transition? I would imagine the tickets on this flight would be more expensive compared to others but I also read that it is very popular amongst pax.

Flown on: DC-10-30, B747-200B, B747-300, B747-300SR, B747-400, B747-400D, B767-300, B777-200, B777-200ER, B777-300
User currently offlineJoFMO From Germany, joined Jul 2004, 2211 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (11 years 3 months ago) and read 4520 times:

I think AF flies the same route as their other flights. The plane for the night flight flies much slower.

Is it economical to fly an 773 much slower than usual oin terms of saving fuel?

User currently offlineAMS From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 1693 posts, RR: 11
Reply 9, posted (11 years 2 months 4 weeks 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 4448 times:

Actually the night flight of AF out of NRT does do very well!. Also because
the aircraft arrives very early morning (next day) many people are able to connect to most AF destinations.


User currently offlineAirGabon From Switzerland, joined Dec 2003, 955 posts, RR: 2
Reply 10, posted (11 years 2 months 4 weeks 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 4325 times:

AF 277 connects with Air Calin A332 flight from Noumea (NOU), New Caledonia, 5 weekly. This flight arrives around 7pm in NRT.

In the past AF 277 was operating by a B744 flying NOU-NRT-CDG.
I tried it, very looonngg journey !

User currently offlineCarfield From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 2127 posts, RR: 8
Reply 11, posted (11 years 2 months 4 weeks 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 4268 times:

Just curious will the curfew at NRT have anything to do with mostly daylight departure from NRT as well? It seems like the last flight departed NRT around 10pm (last flight should be HNL + cargo flights), and any slight delay will result in the planes forced overnight at NRT and additional cost airlines.


User currently offlineFlySSC From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 7494 posts, RR: 56
Reply 12, posted (11 years 2 months 4 weeks 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 4250 times:


AF277 flies slower but also take the further north route to reach CDG.
AF doesn't fly anymore to NOU and PPT with its own planes from NRT. It codeshares with Air Calin & ATN on the NRT-PPT / NRT-NOU route.

AF277 is very popular and shows now the best load factors of all the AF's flights on the NRT-CDG route.

A third DAILY CDG-NRT-CDG will be added for the next season starting March 27th to face the demand. This 3rd daily flight should remain active in the next winter schedule.

User currently offlineUpperDeck79 From Finland, joined Feb 2005, 1139 posts, RR: 2
Reply 13, posted (11 years 2 months 3 weeks 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 4123 times:

In any case, I will definitely try to get myself on AF277 on my way back the next time I go to Japan (hopefully in Sep!). Who cares that it arrives 04:35 - that's 12:35 Japanese time so there will be plenty of sleep.  Smile

AY and ANA rock!
Top Of Page
Forum Index

This topic is archived and can not be replied to any more.

Printer friendly format

Similar topics:More similar topics...
Europe-Mogadishu Flights posted Sun Aug 20 2006 01:48:04 by Soups
UK Govt. Bows To Irrationality Over Night Flights posted Wed Jul 26 2006 19:39:58 by Singapore_Air
Night Flights Are Worse For Global Warming posted Thu Jun 15 2006 17:18:56 by CaptainJon
OLD Late Night Flights posted Tue Mar 21 2006 00:40:27 by N702ML
FNT Friday Night Flights posted Thu Sep 22 2005 01:25:44 by Nwafflyer
Spicejets Night Flights posted Thu Aug 18 2005 19:29:23 by HAWK21M
JAL Japan Airlines Pax Flights To ANC. posted Sat Jul 16 2005 11:56:08 by Sokol
KLM Europe - Australia Flights posted Thu Jun 23 2005 23:24:09 by 777klm
Why No No Frills Airline Night Flights From UK? posted Sat May 28 2005 12:21:11 by Orion737
VFR Night Flights In Vancouver Area (videos Incl) posted Wed Mar 9 2005 07:46:09 by Cdeanda
Night Flights At TXL posted Wed Sep 2 2009 12:31:58 by Tobias2702
(New) Intra-Europe Widebody Flights posted Sun Mar 15 2009 06:01:39 by OHLHD
Why No Europe - Hawaii Flights? posted Mon Jan 19 2009 06:23:18 by CARST
Japan To USA Flights Rerouted South Today posted Mon Aug 11 2008 19:43:14 by JetboyTWA
BA Starts Europe-NY Flights In May 08 posted Wed Dec 12 2007 14:16:31 by LIPZ
Chengdu - Europe Direct Flights posted Wed Oct 24 2007 12:51:11 by ANother
Nigeria Set To Get Night Flights posted Fri Jan 26 2007 15:00:49 by Soups