Wjcandee From United States of America, joined Jun 2000, 4792 posts, RR: 17 Posted (8 years 9 months 2 weeks 4 days 18 hours ago) and read 5727 times:
Well, if I were trying to fly home from the holidays today to LGA or EWR, I would be wishing that I was on Airtran rather than Delta. Since a major meltdown a year or so ago, Delta seems to have made it their policy to pull the plug to NYC as the snow starts to fall when significant snowfall is forecast, whereas Airtran seems to try to persevere. There are costs and benefits to both strategies, of course. One other issue seems to be that Delta has many flight crews based in NYC, and many of them may start calling out with the inclement weather. It at least seems to me that when I fly Airtran from LGA, the crew flying with me is pretty much the crew that came in to LGA. This may be the thing that gives Airtran the ability to fly. As of 10pm, it looks like Airtran completed its entire ATL-LGA and ATL-EWR schedule today, with the exception of one flight to EWR. Delta, meanwhile, pulled the plug in the early afternoon, cancelling everything for the rest of the day. That has to hurt, especially as they were selling tix to LGA for well over $400 from Atlanta. So, the guy who was wise enough to purchase a confirmed, reserved Airtran biz class seat for $240 got to his destination pretty close to on-time despite the horrible storm here, whereas the poor soul who blew $400+ on a center seat in steerage on Delta didn't. Nothing like the legacy carrier making its LCC competition look like not just a better value, but just better.
(Who knows that the carrier he flies more often -- Delta --
could retort that it didn't want to risk stranding people, which
could have happened if the weather had been worse)
MD88Captain From United States of America, joined Nov 2001, 1324 posts, RR: 21 Reply 2, posted (8 years 9 months 2 weeks 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 5613 times:
I'm glad you made it to LGA. Really I am. The call on whether to pare the schedule or not based on forcast conditions is inexact. It is kind of "damned if you do and damned if you don't." Probably part of the reason you got there on time on Airtran was the reduced NYC volume from carriers who chose to cancel. I'm just glad I'm not the guy making the scheduling decisions.
In making the who flys in bad weather comparison, many Airtran passengers could complain about the terrible fog in ATL a week ago. DAL flew because they train to Cat III, while Airtran operations were greatly impacted by lack of Cat III training/capability.
Notdownnlocked From United States of America, joined Sep 2000, 919 posts, RR: 1 Reply 3, posted (8 years 9 months 2 weeks 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 5603 times:
Are you an employee of FL or just trying to put bad press on DL? The same thing happened in ATL a few weeks ago during the ice storm where an FL employee stated the ATL airport was closed because FL cancelled all their flights and he assumed that because FL was grounded all were grounded. He stated this to the local press in ATL and he was live on TV. Needless to say later there were DL employees live too on TV stating that the airport was open and running at a lower capacity but not closed as the employee of FL had made all to believe.
N1120A From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 25996 posts, RR: 78 Reply 6, posted (8 years 9 months 2 weeks 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 5522 times:
Quoting NWAFA (reply 4): Personally Delta did the proper and SAFE operation as AirTran did not. How much time did the crew have on them?
I would much rather have the flight cancelled than have a tired and worn out crew as the AirTran crew had to be.
It is called being SAFE instead of just keeping the flight operating!
Come on now NWAFA. For a long time I have admired the great comments about F/A work and flying you and the no longer with A.net Flyguyclt have made but lately you just seem to be as sour as some of the other members around here. You know that FL complies with FAA regulations and the crew was likely just running the same crew because that was part of their trip for the day. They likely were finishing the day with that trip but they were not flying tired or worn out, and certainly not flying illegally. They were being safe and were taking care of their customers
Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
NWAFA From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 1893 posts, RR: 16 Reply 7, posted (8 years 9 months 2 weeks 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 5486 times:
With all due respect, it does sound like the AirTran crew was pushing the envelope. The smaller airlines, especially the small LCC's like AirTran want to push push push, with out thinking what the situation is.
THANK YOU FOR FLYING NORTHWEST AIRLINES, WE TRULY APPRECIATE YOUR BUSINESS!
GroundStop From United States of America, joined Jun 2003, 611 posts, RR: 6 Reply 8, posted (8 years 9 months 2 weeks 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 5416 times:
Your assumptions regarding our crews are baseless. I have worked this entire afternoon from 1500 EST and I'll be here until 0100 EST. And by work, I mean as the Passenger Movement Coordinator, sitting next to the shift coordinator, all of the dispatchers, the ATC coordinator, Crew Scheduling, and MX Con trol. Let me walk you through my day:
I received my turnover at 1455 and it was something like this...'ATL has a 60+ min delay; PHL, LGA, and EWR have a 180+ minute delay each, and IAD and BWI are taking deicing delays...have a good one!' So, I strapped in and immediately went to work on the schedule. First thing I noticed, all of our ATL-LGA flights were packed to the gills, where the CAK-LGA and PHF-LGA flights were not. Solution? Whack the CAK and PHF flights, using their slot credits to run the ATL-LGA flights on schedule. On top of that, we were able to run extra sections from CAK and PHF to ATL allowing several pax with connections to get to ATL sooner than their originally scheduled flights wouldve allowed them too. LGA problem solved. EWR? Tough one. Three flights, each with a 4 hour delay and no repro from ATL to EWR for 3 days. By cancelling the first of the three, we ran the other two close to on schedule and rerouted affected pax to LGA tonight and tomorrow. EWR problem solved. Next up, PHL, the worst of the three. Right off the top, took out an ATL-PHL turn and ran the next roundtrip on a 73G to accomodate the pax. Took out a PBI-PHL and PHL-MCO turn. Ran the aircraft as 2002 from PBI to MCO, putting in position for the next day and getting the pax to MCO to catch a later MCO-PHL flight. Took out a PHL-BOS-PHL flight that was running 7 hours late...had no choice. Other than that, cancelled an IAD turn, a MEM turn, and an MSY turn that was the result of a runway light failure in MSY this evening. Every move we made was calculated with valid TAF's and RAMTAF's, all the crews were legal and fresh, and there is minimal effect on tomorrow's operation. As far as our crews MD88CAPTAIN?...CAT III. The 73G as an aircraft is not yet certified to CAT III standards but all the 717's are and damn near all the 717 Captains and F/O's are as well. Know what you are talking about before spouting off garbage. At no point during today's operation was safety of flight ever a concern. LGA, EWR, and PHL held above minimums all day, and every single flight we operated into each of these airports made it in without doing so much as one turn in holding. Oh, and I might add that the reason the ATL GDP was so excessive is Delta's great new ATL schedule. Its been acknowledged and questioned by every other airline flying into ATL thats involved in the daily ATC conference. Great for them, and crap for the rest of us.
AirTran737 From United States of America, joined Apr 2004, 3662 posts, RR: 13 Reply 9, posted (8 years 9 months 2 weeks 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 5309 times:
Quoting NWAFA (reply 7): With all due respect, it does sound like the AirTran crew was pushing the envelope. The smaller airlines, especially the small LCC's like AirTran want to push push push, with out thinking what the situation is.
Well done JP. I hate it when ignorant people try to explain how our airline functions. You guys do one hell of a job in MCO. I appreciate having the ability to call down there and be able to have everyone in SOC be open to suggestions as to how to help make our customers experience less hassle in a delay situation. It is very un-nerving to have people question the safety of our airline. If a pilot is going to go over his duty time, you can be damn sure that he is on the phone with crew scheduling to inform them that it is about to occur that way the can come up with a solution. Just because we fly our crews more than three legs a day doesn't make us unsafe. We utilize our crews to the best of our ability, and that is part of the reason that we are making money. Maybe the legacy carriers should take a lesson from the LCC's and that would help plug up the gaping wound that theye are bleeding cash from.
Nice Trip Report!!! Great Pics, thanks for posting!!!! B747Forever
Wjcandee From United States of America, joined Jun 2000, 4792 posts, RR: 17 Reply 10, posted (8 years 9 months 2 weeks 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 5279 times:
MD88 Captain: I thought I was being balanced, and really just trying to observe the differences in judgment calls made by the two carriers. Perhaps my comment at the end reflects a little annoyance that the ATL-LGA Y fare, after coming way down off of $500 at the beginning of Simplifares into the mid-300s, has magically crept back up above $400, and the revenue management folks appear to have been trying to sell a lot more Y fares than they used to at similar apparent loads -- i.e. when I used to be able to get a Q fare. Of course, I understand that Simplifares are supposed to be revenue-neutral or positive, and I appreciate that Delta is hurting and needs the money. But it seems like one effect of Simplifares is to push the short-notice Delta fare up high enough over the competition that I really have to debate who to fly now on certain trips. In other words, is it worth a 75% premium (around $200) to fly on Delta when I'm travelling one-way on short notice? And that's comparing a coach seat on Delta, with the coin-toss of whether I get an upgrade off that Y-fare, against a confirmed biz class seat on Airtran. (My recent experience is that I'll get an upgrade on late-night and Saturday flights, but otherwise I can forget about it as Platinums on Q-or-lower fares sit up front while my Y fare gets me a seat in the rear and sometimes a center seat in the rear.) But that's my problem, not yours. My point was trying to be that today at least, the lower fare was the right choice.
Groundstop: Congratulations on a job well done. I also enjoyed hearing the details of your job.
NWAFA and others: I appreciate your concerns about safety, and I'm in no position to comment on which carrier runs a safer shop, if either, but I do note that more than one American Airlines flight landed in virtually every half-hour period all day through 9pm-ish, and that United and USAirways were also operating more than one flight an hour into LGA throughout the afternoon and evening. Those are all major legacy carriers, so I doubt that Delta was cancelling flights because it was unsafe to land, as opposed to being concerned that the storm would make it difficult to operate reliably.
SHUPirate1 From United States of America, joined Sep 2003, 3670 posts, RR: 18 Reply 11, posted (8 years 9 months 2 weeks 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 5253 times:
Wicandee-Who's to say, however, that those ATL-LGA flights weren't slammed with half-full loads (due to misconnects), whereas that CRJ coming from the point-to-point higher-yield markets into LGA and the Song 757's from Florida weren't packed to the gills?
Burma's constitutional referendum options: A. Yes, B. Go to Insein Prison!
Wjcandee From United States of America, joined Jun 2000, 4792 posts, RR: 17 Reply 13, posted (8 years 9 months 2 weeks 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 5218 times:
Shupirate1: I don't know about misconnects, but I do know that as of this morning, DL was effectively sold-out for most of the day from ATL-NYC, before the cancellations. Given that there was still a lot of traffic trying to get from Florida through ATL to the Northeast today, those pax had to go somewhere. Gonna be a busy Tuesday for our friends at DL. Indeed, the only flights to LGA tomorrow from ATL with seats (using an hourly schedule) are presently at 12:30, 4:30 and 7:30. And those look pretty full.
DeltaMIA From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 1672 posts, RR: 18 Reply 14, posted (8 years 9 months 2 weeks 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 5069 times:
1. Its a lot easier to use the word complete when you are talking about 3 flights. Delta on the other hand has to decide not only among hourly flights from ATL, BOS, DCA, but additional service from 15 other cities.
2. DL elected to cancel flights in an effort to prevent from stranding passengers. And it worked. By canceling the flights in advance (3pm) it allowed the passengers to stay at their origin and go to NY after the storm.
3. DL still operated more flights into LGA after 3pm than FL operated into LGA, EWR, and PHL combined. Just repeating it is a lot easier to complete a schedule when only dealing with a handful of flights.
It's a big building with patients, but that's not important right now.
Falcon84 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 16, posted (8 years 9 months 2 weeks 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 4833 times:
I hint a little DL bashing here. The author makes it sound like that DL was somehow cavalier in cancelling flights. Airlines have to go on forcast, and if that forcast in NYC is for major weather, they have to pre-cancel some flights, so that 1. They don't get crews/planes stranded in the bad weather, and 2. So that they can minimize the effect on the rest of the operation.
It could be DL cancelled, for example, and just for example, a ATL-EWR run, because if they ran it, and didnt get the plane back out of EWR, they might have to cancel 3 or 4 or 5 downline segments out of ATL and beyond. This minimizing of delays/cancellations is prudent, especially for larger hubs. FL may have that to a degree in ATL, but nowhere to the degree DL does. So DL is just being prudent and forward-looking when they cancel, to impact as few customers as possible, and as few flights out of ATL as possible.
I can't say, as NWAFA did, that FL is "pushing the envelope" on anything. Each carrier has to make their own decisions. Out of CLE yesterday, CO flew all but 4 of a scheduled 15 trips into NYC. That was our decison. FL made theirs, and DL made theres. All were made on how much/little such cancellations would impact each of their operations.
GroundStop From United States of America, joined Jun 2003, 611 posts, RR: 6 Reply 17, posted (8 years 9 months 2 weeks 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 4801 times:
"DL still operated more flights into LGA after 3pm than FL operated into LGA, EWR, and PHL combined."
Care to back that statement up with fact? My method is by no means scientific, however I just did a quick check of Delta's flights yesterday to LGA from ATL, BOS, CVG, DCA, FLL, GSO, and MCO after 1500. Granted, there are other cities they could have operated from but seeing as how they operated ZERO flights from any of the 7 markets I just mentioned, I'm thinking your claim is dead wrong. After 1500, we operated 5 ATL-LGA flights, 2 ATL-EWR flights, 2 ATL-PHL flights, 2 MCO-PHL flights, a FLL-PHL flight, a BOS-PHL flight, and TPA-PHL flight.
"DL elected to cancel flights in an effort to prevent from stranding passengers"
Because passengers who flew to ATL from GTR, or MSY, SHV, etc. to connect on to LGA aren't considered stranded if they are stuck in ATL? I highly doubt there weren't several hundred inbound pax to ATL in the air already when this plan was enacted.
"Its a lot easier to use the word complete when you are talking about 3 flights"
A valid point that I will concede. But without operating at least a handful of flights, aren't there several crews out of position, not to mention very few EMO aircraft this morning? The flights we cancelled were done in a manner that allowed us to have full crew staffing this morninng, and we only had to cancel on flight today from PHF to ATL.
Falcon84 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 18, posted (8 years 9 months 2 weeks 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 4757 times:
Because passengers who flew to ATL from GTR, or MSY, SHV, etc. to connect on to LGA aren't considered stranded if they are stuck in ATL?
Duh, you ARE going to get some stranded pax during weather, no matter what. But if you have aircraft, 10 or 15 of them, stuck in the snow in NYC, you're going to strand a hell of a lot more, aren't you? That's because you won't have the aircraft necessary to move people downline of ATL on some routes. Better to cut the flights into NYC and preserve as much of the rest of the operation as possible, and to isolate the difficulty, than to compound it by flying planes up there and maybe not getting them back for a day or so.
Thucydides From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 95 posts, RR: 3 Reply 19, posted (8 years 9 months 2 weeks 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 4728 times:
The fact is the forecasts for the entire Northeast were for a potentially far worse storm, so if flights were cancelled early in anticipation of a heavier storm, I really can't blame DL for being prudent. As several posters have pointed out, DL had a much larger flight load in the region than FL, and the ripples to their system could have been much worse if planes were snowed in up North.
Here in DC, we were told to expect 6-10 inches of snow. In reality we ended up getting only a couple of inches of heavy, wet snow, and the temps never really dipped below freezing. Yet the forecast led school officials to cancel classes, which looked really funny come 4 in the afternoon when the streets were still clear. But change the track of the storm slightly, and it could have been a whole different story. I see that NYC got between 5-8 inches, which for them should not be too bad, but remember, some of the worst blizzards of late have hit in March, and this storm had the potential to be such a blizzard.
Flyinryan99 From United States of America, joined Feb 2001, 1948 posts, RR: 10 Reply 20, posted (8 years 9 months 2 weeks 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 4695 times:
Flyinryan99: Groundstop - Are there any more positions open there in Pax planning for FL? I have tried to apply for other positions there in Dx but haven't gotten anywhere. I would've loved to have something that fast paced and decision making. Give me an email email@example.com so we can chat. I miss what's going on at FL. Great job JP!
UPS Pilot From United States of America, joined May 1999, 869 posts, RR: 3 Reply 22, posted (8 years 9 months 2 weeks 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 4539 times:
I'm still waiting to find the accident report from my girlfreinds fiasco with Delta. During the ice storm pilot returned to gate claiming the deicing truck struck the plane. Delta ops were in chaos. Delta ended up putting her on an Airtran flight the following day. They had quite a few hours but failed to transfer her luggage.
Delta isn't like it use to be.
Wjcandee From United States of America, joined Jun 2000, 4792 posts, RR: 17 Reply 23, posted (8 years 9 months 2 weeks 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 4388 times:
It would be interesting to see if an actual Delta person with actual knowledge could respond to my initial query as to whether the weather issue is a result, in part, of the fact that DL uses NYC-based f/a crews on some of the ATL-bound flights, and that there was a major meltdown up here a year or so ago when they couldn't staff the a/c during a storm. The planes were here. The airport was open. The passengers, ground help, etc. were ready to go, but they didn't have the staff. That's my recollection, and ever since then, it seems like there are a lot of en-masse canx of the ATL flights when it snows here. But that's an *impression*, which was one reason that I started this thread -- to get actual information.
To imply that I am "bashing" Delta is absurd. Only on this board could you see so many accusations, excuses, non-responsive answers and finger-pointing in response to a simple operational query: Did they cancel virtually every flight to NYC after 3pm because they were worried about stranding aircraft because of *staffing* or instead for some other reason?
The fact is that somebody made a judgment call (or didn't and just followed a prearranged plan) which resulted in a markedly-different experience for Airtran travellers (and, for that matter, JetBlue travellers) as compared to Delta travellers on a very important post-Holiday Monday in which Delta was packed to the gills with folks returning to EWR, LGA, JFK and BOS from the Southeast. Those who chose Delta were markedly inconvenienced, which is not consistent with Delta's reputation. Those who chose the budget carriers by and large got home on or pretty close to schedule.
When people in operations make judgment calls, they will then either look brilliant or not brilliant, and factors beyond their control are going to affect which way they look. The storm came in on the high end of the average prediction -- it was pretty much as expected as far as Manhattan was concerned -- so it's not like there were dire predictions which then didn't materialize. Also, I would think that one had at least some ability to play things by ear and respond as things developed, although I realize that it's something like steering an ocean liner -- you have to make decisions NOW that will actually result in a course change singificantly down the line.
However -- and this was the point in bringing all this up in the first place -- if Delta now has a policy that says that under similar circumstances in the future, it is going to just cancel all flights to LGA and EWR for the rest of the day, that's important information for a business traveller to know when making his or her last-minute flight choices.
All the best,
PS N808DE: Of course I'm Medallion. I'm glad that you have the ability to plan so far in advance. My business and schedule don't permit that, usually. And I assure you that it is not an infrequent occurrance nowadays to find that you can buy a Y seat from ATL-NYC and not be offered an automatic upgrade. Why? The Platinum on the Q fare took that seat 4 or 3 or 2 days earlier when he booked.
LTBEWR From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 12679 posts, RR: 13 Reply 24, posted (8 years 9 months 2 weeks 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 4345 times:
Some thought as to the ops of DL vs. FL. Per GroundStop's post, I would suggest that FL may have more flexibility as to their work rules as to flight staff and to reroute, reassign or cancel flights than DL. This storm was mainly on a Monday and not on a peak holiday time, like close to President's weekend or closer to Easter, or College spring breaks, so demand while good wasn't at a peak level. There was plenty of warning of this storm, so probably many potential pax cancelled or changed their flights for another day, thus freeing up space on FL's flights to place rerouted customers.
25 DAYflyer: An ignorant question: Does not the pilot make the final decision based on wether a flight goes or not based on these and other factors?
26 GroundStop: DAYFlyer, That's not an ignorant question at all. The Captain and the dispatcher both have to be in agreement before a flight can depart. If either on
27 DeltaMIA: Not if the flights are canceled prior to them leaving those upline cities. While there were passengers stranded you are only talking about a small pe
28 GroundStop: DeltaMIA, Thanks for clarifying, works for me. A side question for you...do the connection carriers have autonomy in their decision making as far as o