Luv2fly From United States of America, joined May 2003, 11957 posts, RR: 51 Reply 2, posted (8 years 3 months 3 weeks 4 hours ago) and read 3410 times:
Orion737 I have to agree with you. What is sad is now the likes of B6, Frontier and Airtran are starting to offer more entertainment options that the so called full fare majors. Though like others will be quick to point out that the new LCC's do not have the route maps that the established majors now fly. And to some extent that might be the problem of the majors, trying to be all things to all people?
Galapagapop From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 910 posts, RR: 4 Reply 3, posted (8 years 3 months 3 weeks 4 hours ago) and read 3407 times:
We also have yet to see if such a venture would work seeing as its the same crew and same planes. Metrojet lasted for years but it eventually failed. Delta has yet to release any comprehensive numbers on Song and judging by their losses last year it doesn't look great. We know nothing about Ted in terms of finances. AA does not need to go into this area of the market because they are not half as desperate as some of those majors for extra revenue.They also could turn profits this year if fuel stays at or around $50 per barrel. Their revenue unlike other majors is still increasing without a frill or gimmick.
LY4XELD From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 851 posts, RR: 16 Reply 4, posted (8 years 3 months 3 weeks 4 hours ago) and read 3376 times:
I think a portion of it would also be the fact that unions would be opposed to an introduction of an LCC for AA (pay scale, seniority, etc.). It would probably cost them more in the end to reconfigure aircraft, roll out a new marketing campiagn, etc, to implement this rather than just continue down the path AA is currently following.
Quoting Orion737 (reply 1): American are already no-frills on domestic flights!!! just not low fares! there service levels have been cut so much, there wouldnt be anything to cut in a LCC operation
Get rid of first class and add more coach seats...there's your LCC for American.
KKMolokai From United States of America, joined Feb 2000, 760 posts, RR: 3 Reply 5, posted (8 years 3 months 3 weeks 1 hour ago) and read 3252 times:
AA stated last year that they are "monitoring" the success of Ted and Song, however, that they do not have any interest or intent to start a new "airline-within-an-airline," as this concept has proven track record of failing.
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HZ747300 From Hong Kong, joined Mar 2004, 1599 posts, RR: 0 Reply 8, posted (8 years 3 months 2 weeks 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 3079 times:
Probably because flying AA is like flying an LCC without a PTV already. What is interesting is that as fuel prices have risen, airfares have gone down. It is not sustainable, and I suspect that massive failures will start to shake out unless oil can come off its highs.
However, with rising demand for oil from China and India, it is unlikely that oil prices will drop, in fact they will probably rise even more.
Less inflation, prices are actually in line for oil right now when studying it.
NWAFA From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 1893 posts, RR: 16 Reply 10, posted (8 years 3 months 2 weeks 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 3001 times:
Because they are being smart....Song I hear is "having some problems" TED hasn't done much for UA as it still costs them the same amount to fly as mainline. MetroJet..gone. CO Like-gone...UA Shuttle-gone (too bad they did not learn their lesson with that mess)
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Jacobin777 From United States of America, joined Sep 2004, 14968 posts, RR: 61 Reply 11, posted (8 years 3 months 2 weeks 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 2940 times:
Quoting Galapagapop (reply 3): They also could turn profits this year if fuel stays at or around $50 per barrel. Their revenue unlike other majors is still increasing without a frill or gimmick.
Problem is fuel cracked the $53/barrel today
Quoting HZ747300 (reply 8): What is interesting is that as fuel prices have risen, airfares have gone down.
actually, since I fly SFO-ORD-SFO every couple of weeks, I've noticed that the average fare (especially for AA) is up about $40-$50....one can get good fares still, but I've certainly seen higher fares the past 4-6 weeks...come to think of it, they are even higher than $40-$50.....I use aa.com/orbitz/travelocity/expedia/sidestep.com for my fares...
SHUPirate1 From United States of America, joined Sep 2003, 3661 posts, RR: 18 Reply 13, posted (8 years 3 months 2 weeks 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 2842 times:
Gigneil-It actually costs MORE for United to offer Ted than mainline, because of the configuration of the plane. For United mainline flights, the A-320 requires three flight attendants, whereas the Ted-bus requires four flight attendants. It is the same reasoning why I wonder why jetBlue doesn't pull another row, this one in front of the wings, to get down to 150 seats, which would allow them only three flight attendants (certainly the revenue from those six seats aren't going to make up for the pay of a flight attendant)
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Alb222 From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 222 posts, RR: 0 Reply 15, posted (8 years 3 months 2 weeks 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 2780 times:
Part of it I think has to do with competition.
DL has JetBlue at JFK and Airtran at ATL.
UA has Southwest and Alaska on the West Coast and Frontier at DEN.
What they are trying to do is protect their piece of the action by offering more leisure type ideas with lower costs.
As DL says, Song is also being used to experiment with concepts that could be brought to mainline services.
Successful? Nobody knows except the airlines themselves. Forget the rumors, for that is all that they are, rumors with no basis of fact. What the future holds is still the big question. We'll see and the fact is nobody knows the answer. BTW, DLX might still have been around had it not been for 9/11. The competition is what drives the Songs and Teds.................should B6, WN, F9, etc. falter, then we go to another palying field, but until then ,the legacy carriers are looking for anything to drive a wedge into the hearts of the LCCs!
Ckfred From United States of America, joined Apr 2001, 4685 posts, RR: 1 Reply 16, posted (8 years 3 months 2 weeks 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 2621 times:
Back in the mid 90s, when AA had very contentious negotiations with the pilots, I believe that the pilots suggested do something like CO Light, as a means of getting some flexibility for pilot pay.
AA turned down the idea because, in the mid 90s, AA had a very good product, and management felt that an airline within an airline would hurt the reputation of AA.
Now, if AA wanted to try something like Song or Ted, it would want further concessions from pilots and F/As, and that won't happen. Further, by offering first class on routes that compete against Ted and Song, AA has an opportunity to compete for UA and DL frequent flyers that are mad that they have no upgrade opportunities.
The reason that AA doesn't offer IFE on so many flights is that the MD-80 was not purchased to be a long-haul aircraft. So, it never had an IFE system. According to a friend of mine who flies for AA, there was talk of installing IFE when the fleet received new interiors in the late 90s, but the cost was horribly expensive, the equipment would have been very heavy, taking away cargo capability, and the MD-80 cabin has a lower ceiling, so that meant no TV screens in the aisle.
AA has chosen to lower opperating cost rather than cutting ticket prices to boost traffic flow. They cut something like 6 (?) fleet types since 2001, they renegoiated their aircraft delivery schedules, they narrowly avoided a Ch.11 filing, ect.
I would actually say their method of retooling has been more successful than UA/DL's "airline within an airline."
Lvkewlkid From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 104 posts, RR: 0 Reply 18, posted (8 years 3 months 2 weeks 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 2589 times:
Quoting Ckfred (reply 16): The reason that AA doesn't offer IFE on so many flights is that the MD-80 was not purchased to be a long-haul aircraft. So, it never had an IFE system. According to a friend of mine who flies for AA, there was talk of installing IFE when the fleet received new interiors in the late 90s, but the cost was horribly expensive, the equipment would have been very heavy, taking away cargo capability, and the MD-80 cabin has a lower ceiling, so that meant no TV screens in the aisle.
but now on select MD-80 flights, they have digEplayers. I think AA has some great IFE.
WGW2707 From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 1197 posts, RR: 38 Reply 20, posted (8 years 3 months 2 weeks 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 2577 times:
I think the obvious answer to this question, is because LCCs within an airline generally do not work.
The more complex answer is that for sure, creating a Southwest Airlines within an airline doesn't work (see: Continental Lite, Shuttle by United, Delta Express, Go, Metrojet, Zip and Buzz). However, it remains to be seen whether creating a jetBlue within an airline, which appears to be the concept of Song, and to a lesser extent Ted, is viable. Delta claims Song is working, and United hasn't given off any indications of problems with Ted, so we'll have to see. It could be that creating a highly customer-centric, single class, Target-style upscale discount model is viable in the airline industry.
However, given AA's precarious finances, there is no incentive at all for them to attempt to find out, at least not at the moment. Also, with some saying that oil will hit $80 a barrell, you have to wonder...will any airline business plan, no matter how sound, work?
Aa777jr From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 21, posted (8 years 3 months 2 weeks 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 2565 times:
I almost started a blog yesterday about this, here is what I had proposed.
When AA bought out TW, they could have used those planes and turned TW into there LCC, kept ALL TW staff, and turned STL into their hub. I'm sure they could have got rid of the TW a/c they didn't need and use stored MD80s.
TWA902fly From United States of America, joined Dec 1999, 3053 posts, RR: 4 Reply 22, posted (8 years 3 months 2 weeks 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 2554 times:
Quoting MaverickM11 (reply 7): 'Cuz they're not flippin' idiots like United, and realize that they can do the exact same thing as retard-Ted without incurring any incremental costs...
You know as immature as it may seem, that quote just put me in a good mood, always good to get humor out of airliners.net. but anyways, i dont really agree however, i think theres both good and bad sides to an airline within an airline, i think it works better for United/Delta rather than American... maybe because AA is trying to get business passangers to destinations in Song/Ted's main domain: Florida... AA is optimizing on MIA/FLL - Central/South America... while UA/DL are filling their planes with people heading to the beaches... for example AA on ORD-MIA is filled with people connecting to GRU,EZE,SJO,UIO,SCL etc... while UA's A320 is filled with passangers who are using all their miles to fly to Lauderdale for free for some fun in the sun... United figured they'd rather sell $150 a roundtrip on an all-coach A320 instead of flying a mainline A320 full of free pax.. Assuming Ted's costs are somewhat lower than UA's... and people treat miles like cash... whereas UA would charge $300 ... and say now they charge $150, and people buy the ticket instead of getting it for free, and First class isnt all upgrades, theres no first class to lose... so after some time i could see Ted/Song makign profit... and AA is doing something like it on BOS-SNN, BOS-MAN... so i think theyre testing the waters of all-coach transatlantic 757 we'll see...
all prices i said are just for example, and yeah i understand that for Ted to lower costs, UA costs will have to be lowered as well, but making a seperate product to differentiate business and leisure travelers might work pretty well...
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