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What Does The 787 Offer?  
User currently offlinePaul From United Kingdom, joined Feb 2005, 374 posts, RR: 3
Posted (9 years 6 months 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 7241 times:

The 787 has sort of been outshadowed by the coming of the big A380. I was wondering what is the 787 offering that the 777LR cannot cater for? I know it is called a dreamliner but what does that mean? Better seats, nicer interior, more space, etc?

Thanks

Paul


Veni, vidi, vici.
34 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offline7E72004 From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 3587 posts, RR: 2
Reply 1, posted (9 years 6 months 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 7192 times:

For one thing, bigger windows  Big grin


The next generation of aircraft is just around the corner!
User currently offlineHZ747300 From Hong Kong, joined Mar 2004, 1665 posts, RR: 1
Reply 2, posted (9 years 6 months 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 7187 times:
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Bigger windows for passengers to start. Moving along, it is lighter, saves on landing when based on aircraft weight--helps airlines in the Asian markets. Planned fuel burn is more efficient too. The interior (more space, nicer seats, etc...) is up to the airline, so that is nothing Boeing would offer.

An example is Ryanair ordering 738s without seat pockets, tray tables, and window shades and reclining seats. That's not anything Boeing pitched to them, it is what the airline requested.



Keep on truckin'...
User currently offlinePaul From United Kingdom, joined Feb 2005, 374 posts, RR: 3
Reply 3, posted (9 years 6 months 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 7114 times:

Thanks for the info.

Interesting about Ryanair, it just shows what a bunch of cheap scheeming bastards RyanAir are really.



Veni, vidi, vici.
User currently offlineNewark777 From United States of America, joined Dec 2004, 9348 posts, RR: 30
Reply 4, posted (9 years 6 months 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 7090 times:

Quoting Paul (reply 0):
The 787 has sort of been outshadowed by the coming of the big A380


I wouldn't say the A380 is outshadowing the 787, since they are in very different levels of development. While the A380 is about to fly for the first time, the 787 is still being designed. The 787 will have its day too, it's just that the A380 is that much closer to going into service.

Harry



Why grab a Heine when you can grab a Busch?
User currently offlineRobK From United Kingdom, joined Sep 2004, 3947 posts, RR: 18
Reply 5, posted (9 years 6 months 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 7076 times:

What does the 787 offer?

The chance for someone to start yet another new thread about it .................  Insane  Big thumbs up

Cheers,

Rob K  Wink/being sarcastic


User currently offlineConcordeBoy From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 6, posted (9 years 6 months 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 7078 times:

C-market range, combined with less-than-200 seats and operational costs less than a 767.

The 777 family cannot match the combination of those attributes.


User currently offlineScbriml From United Kingdom, joined Jul 2003, 12499 posts, RR: 46
Reply 7, posted (9 years 6 months 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 6962 times:
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Quoting ConcordeBoy (reply 6):
combined with less-than-200 seats


All three variants of the 787 easily seat more than 200 pax.  Big grin



Time flies like an arrow, but fruit flies like a banana!
User currently offlineMilan320 From Canada, joined Jan 2005, 869 posts, RR: 11
Reply 8, posted (9 years 6 months 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 6924 times:

Quoting HZ747300 (reply 2):
Bigger windows for passengers to start.



Come on, though, bigger windows cannot be a major selling point, unless for the few (in relation to the millions who fly) that actually care about it.
Most of the time the FAs will tell you to pull-down your window shade, and there goes the bigger-window feature.
Besides, how many people stare out the window constantly. I think the bigger window is not too relavant.

/Milan320



I accept bribes ... :-)
User currently offlineStirling From Italy, joined Jun 2004, 3943 posts, RR: 21
Reply 9, posted (9 years 6 months 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 6889 times:

Quoting Paul (reply 3):
Interesting about Ryanair, it just shows what a bunch of cheap scheeming bastards RyanAir are really.


And how is that?
Because they are thrifty and don't waste their time on non-revenue producing elements that result in negative passenger value and corporate profitability?..(look at my username, as a thrifty Scotsman, I appreciate their attention to details the others have overlooked.)
Protecting my hard-earned Euro (or Pound what have you), that makes them cheap scheming bastards?
Is it because Ryanair doesn't make people pay for things they don't need, or care about?
Because now a family of five can fly for what was once the price of just ONE ticket, well yes, I guess that would make them cheap, but certainly not bastards!?
Is it because Ryanair has brought a value benchmark to European Commercial Aviation? Because they are to commercial aviation, what the automobile was to the horse and buggy?
The world is ever-changing, but amazingly, it's all the same, just the toys of our amusement are different.

Quoting Paul (reply 0):
The 787 has sort of been outshadowed by the coming of the big A380


Really? I can't remember the last time an A380 was ordered....while the 787 is steadily gaining orders, and will do so well into the future. Ethiopian, Icelandic, Air China, China Eastern, Shanghai, Hainan, Xiamen, JAL, Continental.....All in the last 3 months...
The A380 might very well be the Bentley of the skies, but most people I know drive Hondas and Fords.

Paul, I share your excitement over the A380; and while I too cannot wait to see, and ride her for the first time, let's not let our enthusiasm get in the way of the facts.



Delete this User
User currently offlineHZ747300 From Hong Kong, joined Mar 2004, 1665 posts, RR: 1
Reply 10, posted (9 years 6 months 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 6868 times:
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From Milan320:

Quoting HZ747300 (reply 2):
Bigger windows for passengers to start.

Come on, though, bigger windows cannot be a major selling point, unless for the few (in relation to the millions who fly) that actually care about it.
Most of the time the FAs will tell you to pull-down your window shade, and there goes the bigger-window feature.
Besides, how many people stare out the window constantly. I think the bigger window is not too relavant.

/Milan320


As an A.Net'er bigger windows means the world to me... I threw more things in there, and probably left out a bunch of stuff that might even be more relevant.



Keep on truckin'...
User currently offlineDAYflyer From United States of America, joined Sep 2004, 3807 posts, RR: 3
Reply 11, posted (9 years 6 months 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 6846 times:

Quoting ConcordeBoy (reply 6):
C-market range, combined with less-than-200 seats and operational costs less than a 767.

The 777 family cannot match the combination of those attributes.


Indeed, plus is cost substantially less than a 777 to buy per airframe at list prices.



One Nation Under God
User currently offlinePaul From United Kingdom, joined Feb 2005, 374 posts, RR: 3
Reply 12, posted (9 years 6 months 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 6713 times:

Quoting; Stirling

"Because they are thrifty and don't waste their time on non-revenue producing elements that result in negative passenger value and corporate profitability"

Stirling the reason for my disliking of Ryan Air is not because they have made a lot of money, but the way in which they had made it (at the expense of the customers). False/ miss- leading price advertising, charging disabled passenger for wheelchairs, charging for luggage. In addition to cost cutting measures that include; through not putting shutters on the windows, having non- reclining seats, no tray tables or seat pockets, what's next no overhead bins?!

All of these cost saving measures are not reflected in their prices. I mean they can hardly get lower, initially. I hardly think that being "Thrifty" is offering an even less comfortable service by not having a reclining seat, when ones seat pitch is what a measly (30inches).

I bet if you did a survey and asked the general travelling public whether they would prefer or not to have a reclining seat, the results would be overwhelmingly clear. Especially when the fare would not be any cheaper!
Do you really think that having a non reclining seat contributes to negative customer value????

Quoting; Sterling

"Because now a family of five can fly for what was once the price of just ONE ticket, well yes, I guess that would make them cheap."

Do you actually know how many families can fly for the price of one ticket, on the same flight? No more than 1 or 2. And this is because when people see a cheap fare for what will turn out to be roughly £40/50 return to anywhere in Europe, they all try and get it. Needless to say that the cheap fare only applies to the first dozen or so customers who get lured in by the cheap fare. So don't kid yourself they are not as great as you think! RyanAir rip- off customers, how else do you think they have become so successful, fair trade, I think not!



Veni, vidi, vici.
User currently offlineAreopagus From United States of America, joined Sep 2001, 1369 posts, RR: 1
Reply 13, posted (9 years 6 months 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 6636 times:

Quoting Milan320 (reply 8):
Besides, how many people stare out the window constantly.

I do. That's good enough for me. A 737's window top is about even with my chin, so I have to duck and crane my neck to see out. My neck is sore from this during and after a flight.

Another value of the 787 is increased cargo capacity (compared to 767 and 330), both in the lower hold, and on the main deck, when it is made into a freighter.

The 787 will provide wider seats than the 330, and more vertical walls at armrest & eye levels.


User currently offlineUAL-Fan From United States of America, joined Dec 1999, 374 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (9 years 6 months 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 6569 times:

Last I heard there were to be no window shades.....some sort of electronic shade I think..

User currently offlineDfwRevolution From United States of America, joined Jan 2010, 970 posts, RR: 51
Reply 15, posted (9 years 6 months 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 6535 times:

Quoting Scbriml (reply 7):
All three variants of the 787 easily seat more than 200 pax


In many configurations, subtract about 30 seats from what Boeing advertises. The configurations advertised by Boeing and Airbus must straddle between premium configurations and high density configurations....

For example, many 777 carriers opperate at about 225-250 seats.

Quoting Paul (reply 0):
I was wondering what is the 787 offering that the 777LR cannot cater for? I know it is called a dreamliner but what does that mean? Better seats, nicer interior, more space, etc?


- Very low opperating cost
- Ability to serve new markets with combination of small capacity/long range
- Greater revenue potential (i.e. more cargo)
- Reduced maintenance (36 month maintenance cycle)
- "Open Architechture" systems
- Improved passenger comfort integrated into airframe


User currently offlineMidnightMike From United States of America, joined Mar 2003, 2892 posts, RR: 14
Reply 16, posted (9 years 6 months 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 6515 times:

Fuel efficient
Bleedless engines
Dual HUDS in the cockpit
Electric Heating blankets rather than using the traditional anti-ice system.
Increased use of composites and new way of joining the aircraft saving time when building the aircraft.
Electric sensors placed all over the aircraft to better advise the MX crew what is wrong with the aircraft.

New Passenger comforts such as:
Larger Windows (40% bigger)
Larger Overhead bins
Wide cabin
Fresh air, rather than recycled air
Higher ceiling



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User currently offlineCo7772wuh From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 17, posted (9 years 6 months 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 6478 times:

The 787 sounds very impressive . How will Airbus counter the 787's new technology ?

Also , will the wings on the 787 be all composite ?


User currently offlineWagz From United States of America, joined Mar 2003, 516 posts, RR: 16
Reply 18, posted (9 years 6 months 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 6408 times:
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It seems like some people keep trying to compare the 787 to the 772LR. Both do boast a substantial range, but are completely differant categories of aircraft.

The 787 is meant as a 767 replacement, therefore seating in the 200-250 pax range. The 787-8 would have substantially higher range than that of the B763, while also more fuel efficient. It also boats all the technologies others have covered above.

The B772LR fits the 300 pax range.

Quoting Co7772wuh (reply 17):
The 787 sounds very impressive . How will Airbus counter the 787's new technology ?


Airbus is developing the A350, which at this point is nothing more than an A330 with bleedless engines (according to artist's renderings). It is still early in development so we'll see what becomes of that program.



I think Big Foot is blurry, Its not the photographers fault. Theres a large out of focus monster roaming the countryside
User currently offlineDfwRevolution From United States of America, joined Jan 2010, 970 posts, RR: 51
Reply 19, posted (9 years 6 months 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 6403 times:

Quoting Co7772wuh (reply 17):
The 787 sounds very impressive . How will Airbus counter the 787's new technology ?


The Airbus A350 incorperates some of the 787's new technology into the A330 architecture. The A350 will feature a (new) composite wing, extensive use of weight reducing materials like GLARE, 787-like engines, ect. The aircraft isn't well defined, so it's hard to say how it will stack-up against the 787.

In one sense, you could argue that because the 787 is a clean-sheet design while the A350 is only an upgrade, the 787 will be superior, but there have been some very successful upgrades in the past...

Quoting Co7772wuh (reply 17):
Also , will the wings on the 787 be all composite ?


Not 100% composite, but a large percentage of the skin and structure will be composite. I believe the leading edge is aluminum-

http://www.speednews.com/7E7MAT/7E7.jpg


User currently offlineGigneil From United States of America, joined Nov 2002, 16347 posts, RR: 85
Reply 20, posted (9 years 6 months 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 6308 times:

Quoting Co7772wuh (reply 17):
Also , will the wings on the 787 be all composite ?


Not ALL, but primarily.

There will still be metal spars, if I'm not mistaken.

N


User currently offlineN1120A From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 26444 posts, RR: 75
Reply 21, posted (9 years 6 months 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 6291 times:

Quoting Scbriml (reply 7):
All three variants of the 787 easily seat more than 200 pax.


A very easy way to tell how many it will seat is to look at how carriers configure 763s and 764s. If they are in a 2 class, intercontinental configuration, A 788 will take about 230 people and a 789 could do 260-270. In an intercontinental 3 class, the 788 will likely check in around 200 seats, plus or minus and the 789 will be around 230-250. The 2 class, high density 783 (or 788) would check in around 260-280

Quoting Wagz (reply 18):
The B772LR fits the 300 pax range.


For all intents and purposes, it will likely never carry more than 230-240



Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
User currently offlineN200WN From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 784 posts, RR: 6
Reply 22, posted (9 years 6 months 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 6210 times:

Quoting Paul (Reply 12):
RyanAir rip- off customers, how else do you think they have become so successful, fair trade, I think not!

I find it hard to believe that RyanAir "have become so successful" by intentionally, routinely, and consistently ripping people off. They must be offering a service that a lot of people find of value.

Just curious Paul, I see that in your profile you are a student and hope to work in Marketing for one of the airlines someday. If RyanAir were the only airline hiring when your graduate would you apply? Would you take such a position? Perhaps you would be able to make some positive changes to the things you find so offensive about RyanAir. Would the lure of a stable job at a profitable airline be too good to pass up?


User currently offlineRuscoe From Australia, joined Aug 1999, 1561 posts, RR: 2
Reply 23, posted (9 years 6 months 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 6175 times:

Here are a few 787 features
1. all composite load bearing surfaces
2. All composite fuselage which mean
3. Higher pressure inside craft
4. Greater humidity
5. All Boeing figures based on 8 abreast but it can seat 9 abreast with A320 size seats
6, Much lighter weight
7. Bleedless engines which improves fuel efficiency
8. Bleedless engines mean almost no pneumatics abd a very limited hydraulic system saving complexity weight and cost
9.Most powered controls etc are electrically powered
10. No need for bleed air means APU can be simplere, lighter, cheaper
11. Different brand engines are interchangeable thus increasing aftermarket and trade in value, and making them far more attractive to lessors.
12.Bigger windows for open airy cabin feel with
13. No shades, will be electronically controlled by passengers or FA's
14. Increased time interval between major servicing
15. Composites much less prone to fatigue
16. New methods of manufacture which is the reason the 7e7 can be offered much cheaper than 777
17. Open architecture to make future upgrades and enhancements easier

And so on and so on. The 7e7 is much more of anadvance than just a composite fuselage.

Ruscoe


User currently offlineBoeing7E7 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 24, posted (9 years 6 months 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 6140 times:

Quoting DfwRevolution (reply 19):
Not 100% composite, but a large percentage of the skin and structure will be composite. I believe the leading edge is aluminum-

http://www.speednews.com/7E7MAT/7E7.jpg


This is outdated a bit. Not even close on what final design is approaching.


25 Rj111 : Really? I can't remember the last time an A380 was ordered Where have you been? There was a 5 plane order one a month ago for China Southern, and a UP
26 Mountain : Ryanair is not cheap. They are like Southwest. Set the expectations low and achieve them everytime.
27 Post contains links Siggi757 : Don't forget that in their effort to cut costs Ryanair treats their flightcrews in less than adequate way. Interesting thread on pprune.com http://www
28 Co7772wuh : So that's the significance of bleedless engines !!! Boeing really seems to strive for simplicity . Thanks for the info .
29 Milan320 : That may true even of all A.netters, but I'm sure Boeing didn't have A.netters in mind when they created the 787 with bigger windows. Most pax couldn
30 B707Stu : From what I'm seeing, and I'm not the technical expert type of airliner's member, the impact of the 787 will be to shrink the world to the next level.
31 N1120A : You would likely need a 772LR for that flight
32 Gigneil : I don't see any reason why you would. The 7E7-8 has more than sufficient range to fly SGN-LAX. N
33 NDSchu777 : Airbus is developing the A350, which at this point is nothing more than an A330 with bleedless engines (according to artist's renderings). Although th
34 Post contains images Lehpron : It's 787's engines; the windows, the nose, the tail, the seats (if carriers keep them) are just cosmetic and are pretty much not necessary. They are
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