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EU Compensation: U2 GLA-BRS Cancelled  
User currently offlineGeoffm From United Kingdom, joined Feb 2004, 2111 posts, RR: 6
Posted (9 years 1 month 3 weeks 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 3741 times:

Easyjet flight cancelled last night, GLA-BRS. My colleague got put up for the night by easyJet - but was he entitled to any other compensation under the new EU law? He'll now be missing around 2 hours work time (he's on his way back now - and the flight was delayed again!).

Thanks

Geoff M.

60 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineGkirk From UK - Scotland, joined Jun 2000, 24822 posts, RR: 56
Reply 1, posted (9 years 1 month 3 weeks 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 3720 times:

Probably cancelled due to weather I think.
The EU rules are stupid if the reason for a cancellation/delay is purely because of weather as there is nothing the airlines can do to prevent this.

To answer your question, I think that he could also recieve some money for the cancelation, although I've no idea how much. Maybe £500?



When you hear the noise of the Tartan Army Boys, we'll be coming down the road!
User currently offlineANCFlyer From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 2, posted (9 years 1 month 3 weeks 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 3698 times:

Can someone provide a link where one can read about this "new law". I've heard bits and pieces on news, etc but haven't read much about it.

Thanks in advance!


User currently offlineAirsicknessbag From Germany, joined Aug 2000, 4723 posts, RR: 34
Reply 3, posted (9 years 1 month 3 weeks 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 3629 times:

http://europa.eu.int/comm/transport/...s/doc/2005_01_19_apr_poster_en.pdf

http://europa.eu.int/comm/transport/.../doc/2005_01_19_apr_leaflet_en.pdf

Daniel Smile


User currently offlinePe@rson From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2001, 19108 posts, RR: 53
Reply 4, posted (9 years 1 month 3 weeks 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 3573 times:

I believe that it is absolutely just and reasonable that airlines should not have to pay any compensation or offer anything if the reason for the cancellation was beyond their control, for instance the weather or an ATC strike.

I also believe that an financial compensation should reflect the fare paid, for if it did not some people would get far more than what they paid and others not enough.



"Everyone writing for the Telegraph knows that the way to grab eyeballs is with Ryanair and/or sex."
User currently offlineJGPH1A From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 5, posted (9 years 1 month 3 weeks 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 3555 times:

Quoting Pe@rson (reply 4):
I also believe that an financial compensation should reflect the fare paid, for if it did not some people would get far more than what they paid and others not enough.


The compensation is not being paid for the fact that the flight was cancelled, but for the inconvenience suffered by the passengers as a result of the cancellation. Everyone is equally inconvenienced, so everyone gets the same compensation. The passenger paid the airline to fly them from point A to point B. The price agreed between the passenger and the airline is irrelevant, the contract was agreed and the price paid. The airline failed to deliver on that service, and so the customer is legally entitled to compensation. The best way for an airline to avoid paying compensation is to complete the flight.


User currently offlineZonky From New Zealand, joined Nov 2004, 432 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (9 years 1 month 3 weeks 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 3547 times:

"for instance the weather "

Weather is to an extent, is entirely in control of an airline/suppliers.

The presence of snow, for example, is largely predictable, and if falling in average quantites - the facilities should be present to deal with their effects.

Extreme weather is of course, another matter.


"Strikes"

Reasonably choice by mentioning ATC Strikes- they are regionalised monopolies as a rule- but Strike Action by others should not be exempt. Supplier/Sub-contracter selection is entirely within the scope of comptent management of an Airline. If they're selecting contracters with poor employee relations, then that is their decision they should live with.

[Edited 2005-03-04 11:27:49]

User currently offlinePe@rson From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2001, 19108 posts, RR: 53
Reply 7, posted (9 years 1 month 3 weeks 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 3527 times:

Quoting JGPH1A (reply 5):
Everyone is equally inconvenienced


If I were due in a meeting, where I could get £1 billion, it could be fairly assumed that the cancellation or severe delay of the flight could have more serious consequences for me than for someone who is retired and going to see Aunt Mable for two months.

Quoting JGPH1A (reply 5):
The passenger paid the airline to fly them from point A to point B.


Quoting JGPH1A (reply 5):
The airline failed to deliver on that service


You will find that in numerous airline contracts there are expressed terms to the effect that the airlines will get the offeree to the stated destination by ANY MEANS - not necessarily just flying. If the airline cannot get the offeree to the stated destination by whatever means, then that would indeed amount to a breach of contract for which the airline could be sued. Why? Because they airline would not have performed its side of the bargain.

It is clear, in my mind, that the consequences to passengers of a delayed or cancelled flight will be different, even greatly so, but this might not be quantifiable. Accordingly, it would be much easier to assume a general compensation amount, as has already been stated - based on the miles flown. However, it still seems unfair and unreasonable if Person X paid £10 for his flight and Person Y £100, yet they're both entitled to the same level of compensation. This would, of course, lead to complications and delays in issuing compensation, but it would nevertheless be the method which is most fair and reasonable.



"Everyone writing for the Telegraph knows that the way to grab eyeballs is with Ryanair and/or sex."
User currently offlineZonky From New Zealand, joined Nov 2004, 432 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (9 years 1 month 3 weeks 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 3510 times:

Quoting Pe@rson (reply 7):
However, it still seems unfair and unreasonable if Person X paid £10 for his flight and Person Y £100, yet they're both entitled to the same level of compensation


Becuase they've both contracted the same service; price paid/service provider is immaterial. Compensation is due for failing to furfill the contract obligations (delivery from A to B).

It's no different to other Sales of good services. I can buy a £100 fridge or a £600 bells and whistles fridge. My expectation, and legal rights, are that the fridge is fit for the purpose; chilling.

[Edited 2005-03-04 11:38:08]

User currently offlineJGPH1A From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 9, posted (9 years 1 month 3 weeks 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 3513 times:

Quoting Pe@rson (reply 7):
If I were due in a meeting, where I could get £1 billion, it could be fairly assumed that the cancellation or severe delay of the flight could have more serious consequences for me than for someone who is retired and going to see Aunt Mable for two months.


True - so the legislation attempts to find a happy medium, in order to simplify the system. I am sure that 156 x EUR300.00 works out cheaper for the airline than 155 x a tenner + 1 x a million quid, right ?

Quoting Pe@rson (reply 7):
You will find that in numerous airline contracts there are expressed terms to the effect that the airlines will get the offeree to the stated destination by ANY MEANS - not necessarily just flying.


This is why you are only entitled to compensation if the airline fails to get you to your agreed arrival point within 5 hours of the original scheduled arrival time (I think it is). So if the airline in the case of the GLA-BRS example was able to get hold of a reasonably zippy bus, they might have managed it.


User currently offlinePilot kaz From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 10, posted (9 years 1 month 3 weeks 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 3503 times:

Wait a minuet, your friend gets cancelled on a flight due to weather which is out of the airlines control? He was put up for a night by easyjet? And because he is missing 2 hours of work he wants compensation? Am I reading this right?? Are you serious?

User currently offlineMrniji From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 11, posted (9 years 1 month 3 weeks 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 3476 times:

Quoting Pe@rson (reply 7):
Aunt Mable


 Big grin Haha! Aunt Mable..! Is your aunt called like this??

Quoting Pilot kaz (reply 10):
And because he is missing 2 hours of work he wants compensation? Am I reading this right?? Are you serious?


Yeah, he is serious and he is right.. that are the rules.. - and I know how shitty it can be to be two hours late..  Wink


User currently offlineA340600 From United Kingdom, joined Aug 2003, 4104 posts, RR: 52
Reply 12, posted (9 years 1 month 3 weeks 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 3447 times:

This crap new EU law will send LCC carriers prices rising at this rate. They end up paying more than the people paid for the ticket, for delays, no matter how they happened. It's good for passengers, but very bad news for airlines. EasyJet, especially are very displeased by this law,

Sam



Despite the name I am a Boeing man through and through!
User currently offlineZonky From New Zealand, joined Nov 2004, 432 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (9 years 1 month 3 weeks 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 3433 times:

Quoting A340600 (reply 12):
EasyJet, especially are very displeased by this law


I'd be rather displeased if on a shorthop Easyjet flight i was delayed over two hours. I'm unsure why i'm supposed to be sorry for the LCC's?


User currently offlineGeoffm From United Kingdom, joined Feb 2004, 2111 posts, RR: 6
Reply 14, posted (9 years 1 month 3 weeks 22 hours ago) and read 3362 times:

Kaz, yes. Read the links kindly provided by Airsicknessbag.

He's back now. This is what happened. Yes the flight was cancelled due to the weather... not the weather in the UK, but the weather in southern Europe somewhere (he said Vienna, but I didn't think easyJet flew there?). So neither GLA nor BRS were affected by the weather, which is what is relevant from the pax point of view.

So he was offered either bed and breakfast in the Horrorday Inn (which was actually fairly good apparently) with a flight in the morning; or to spent 6-7 hours on a 6-seater minibus. The few that opted for the minibus (called a "coach") were apparently quite horrified when they saw it.

In terms of the compensation, easyJet did do everything correctly under the EU law, so I'm quite happy with that. Note that my question was genuine and wasn't querying easyJet's actions in any bad way.

Geoff M.


User currently offlineGeoffm From United Kingdom, joined Feb 2004, 2111 posts, RR: 6
Reply 15, posted (9 years 1 month 3 weeks 22 hours ago) and read 3353 times:

Oh, and this morning's delay was due to sickness in ATC at Bristol. Though why other planes took off and landed before and after is a little puzzling.

Geoff M.


User currently offlineCornish From United Kingdom, joined Feb 2005, 8187 posts, RR: 54
Reply 16, posted (9 years 1 month 3 weeks 22 hours ago) and read 3341 times:

While I agree with the principle of compensation, and think that this may remove some practices that have gone on too long by airlines, I do understand why the airlines feel somewhat annoyed that they are held responsible when there may be issues that are the fault of others.

Delays can be the fault of airports or ATC providers on occasion. If an airport is closed because of snow, is it not down to the airports to provide facilities that deal with the clearing of this, not the airlines.

Not all airlines have spare back up aircraft they can provide in the event of an aircraft being stranded somewhere else, and the cost of having ones, would be a high extra cost.

Sadly I think it will result in higher prices in the future as costs will inevitably get passed on to the consumer.



Just when I thought I could see light at the end of the tunnel, it was some B*****d with a torch bringing me more work
User currently offlineZonky From New Zealand, joined Nov 2004, 432 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (9 years 1 month 3 weeks 21 hours ago) and read 3313 times:

Quoting Cornish (reply 16):
Delays can be the fault of airports


Which are suppliers and/or sub-contractors of the airlines. Airport selection is within their control.


User currently offlinePe@rson From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2001, 19108 posts, RR: 53
Reply 18, posted (9 years 1 month 3 weeks 21 hours ago) and read 3298 times:

Quoting Zonky (reply 17):
Which are suppliers and/or sub-contractors of the airlines. Airport selection is within their control.


So you are saying that airlines should be absolutely aware of precisely what every airport served, where the airports are "suppliers and/or sub-contractors," can do in every situation, because they can choose which airports to serve ('airport selection')? It would seem that you are trying to make everything the fault of the airline, including things about which airlines would have no or very little control, such as ATC strikes.



"Everyone writing for the Telegraph knows that the way to grab eyeballs is with Ryanair and/or sex."
User currently offlineZonky From New Zealand, joined Nov 2004, 432 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (9 years 1 month 3 weeks 21 hours ago) and read 3290 times:

Quoting Pe@rson (reply 18):
So you are saying that airlines should be absolutely aware of precisely what every airport served, where the airports are "suppliers and/or sub-contractors," can do in every situation, because they can choose which airports to serve ('airport selection')?


What an odd idea, that a company run in a professional manner should be responsible for selecting comptent suppliers.


User currently offlineCornish From United Kingdom, joined Feb 2005, 8187 posts, RR: 54
Reply 20, posted (9 years 1 month 3 weeks 21 hours ago) and read 3283 times:

Quoting Zonky (reply 17):
Which are suppliers and/or sub-contractors of the airlines. Airport selection is within their control.


So why are the airports not liable to pay on occasion then?

Quoting Pe@rson (reply 18):
It would seem that you are trying to make everything the fault of the airline, including things about which airlines would have no or very little control, such as ATC strikes.


Exactly - couldn't agree more Mr. P.



Just when I thought I could see light at the end of the tunnel, it was some B*****d with a torch bringing me more work
User currently offline1MillionFlyer From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 21, posted (9 years 1 month 3 weeks 21 hours ago) and read 3282 times:

Zonky you are extremely matter of fact for a rather complex industry.

The airline cannot control the weather, "they knew it was going to snow" this is ridiculous. Flying is not a game nor is it the same as driving your car across town or buying a home appliance.

In the case of this chap, I agree he should have had compensation as this was an equipment not available rather than weather on the route.

We all take for granted due to technology and the skill of pilots these days that it is all just ho-hum and "so what". Trust me, flying is still about unknowns, they are just mitigated much better these days. Weather and aiport managment cannot be managed in the FMS on the flight deck!

I can only hope you realize that the airline is there to get you SAFELY from point A to point B and with a reasonable degree of care to live up to the contract of carriage. As we say here in the US "Sh*t happens".

I used to think the US was a great place to be a lawyer/solicitor, I guess the EU is the place to be now.


User currently offlinePe@rson From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2001, 19108 posts, RR: 53
Reply 22, posted (9 years 1 month 3 weeks 21 hours ago) and read 3278 times:

LOL. But it would be impossible to know how Supplier A would respond in EVERY AND ANY given situation. The more likely situations, yes, but not EVERY, as suggested by you.

'Oh dear, Joe - there's a drop of paint on the floor of the terminal.'

'You know the drill - send for the police and ambulance: we have a problem.'

Dear me.



"Everyone writing for the Telegraph knows that the way to grab eyeballs is with Ryanair and/or sex."
User currently offlineAceFreighter From United Kingdom, joined Nov 2003, 179 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (9 years 1 month 3 weeks 21 hours ago) and read 3266 times:

Zonky

I would love to live on the same planet as you - where all possible problems can be forseen and contracts put in place to ensure they are all mitigated for
on every occasion. I should think it would be a very relaxing place. But it would either not have any airlines as they have gone bust - or the airfares would be so high that nobody would travel anywhere.


User currently offlineCornish From United Kingdom, joined Feb 2005, 8187 posts, RR: 54
Reply 24, posted (9 years 1 month 3 weeks 21 hours ago) and read 3264 times:

what may start happening, should it start costing the airlines large amounts of money, is that we could have lots of long and complex court cases where airlines try to get money out of the airports, ATC services and other suppliers, when they feel they are to blame for any delays.

Could lead to chaos - only guarantee is that the lawyers get even richer.....



Just when I thought I could see light at the end of the tunnel, it was some B*****d with a torch bringing me more work
25 Post contains images Zonky : The Ticketted pax has no contract with the airport. They are a sub-contracter of the Airline. The nature of that contractual arrangement is up to the
26 Pe@rson : Oi - I'll be a lawyer soon and I'm not that bad! In fact, money is reason 3 or 4 for why I am doing it.
27 Zonky : If Airline A is quite prepared to take the cheapest bidder with scant regard to deliverability of services by Supplier B, in a bid to maximise profit
28 Cornish : and that's the airlines' fault ???
29 Post contains images GlobeTrekker : A KLM colleague (ground staff) of mine based in AMS told me about a situation. A group of pax was traveling AMS-MSP and the flight was oversold. They
30 Post contains images Cornish : Ooops......
31 Zonky : Airport selection is quite within the scope of the Airlines. Clearly, the professionalism and ability of an airport operating company to cope with av
32 1MillionFlyer : Zonky, I am a business person and ex Cheif Financial Officer for a large automobile supplier, trust me I know debits and credits and business, but as
33 Cornish : So should LHR close down because of bad weather, its the airlines fault for not flying to STN instead ?? That's a bizarre arguement. You don't work f
34 AA7573E : This new legislation highlights the overall disfunctional nature of the EU in general, and more specifically their aviation authorities. I am by no me
35 1MillionFlyer : Hmmm this airport does not meet our standards, but our passengers want to go to the city that airport serves....let's Build our own airport to ensure
36 Zonky : 1MillionFlyer, this discussion is not about flying an airplane; rather the structure of a business to deliver purchased services to consumers. I am me
37 Zonky : I have never made this argument. Try reading the thread again.
38 Cornish : Then by your very argument, if a passenger chooses an airline "incapable of delivering services in a timely manner" when there was an alternative cho
39 Zonky : Don't be tedious. The compensation structure will quite clearly lead Airlines to renegotiate to a position where Airport companies assume risk/penalt
40 1MillionFlyer : buy definition "aviaion" involves flying airplanes, all the suppliers you are mentioning support the flying of airplanes, the purchased service is tr
41 Pe@rson : For expected, predictable and irregular occurences, yes. But to assume the same for things which might occur extremely irregularly is absurd, as it w
42 Zonky : As i've said before, ATC tends to be regionalised monopolies (well.. in the UK i suppose VS/BA should be held accountable....?), thus i excluded them
43 Zonky : Wow. If only i'd mentioned such concepts as 'average weather' and ooh i dunno 'extreme weather' Oh... wait... I did.
44 Pe@rson : LOL. It's no wonder you have a RR of 0: you are very arrogant. And as I have said: it is reasonable and fair for EXPECTED and PREDICTABLE weather. You
45 1MillionFlyer : Thank you Pe@rson I was beginning to think I had left planet earth.
46 Post contains images Cornish : Well if you had, it was obviously the airlines' fault for flying you there
47 Post contains images Pe@rson : I can see it now: a consumer complains that there's a drop of paint on the terminal floor. This would, of course, be expected and predicted by Zonky,
48 Post contains images Cornish : Now you're just trying to do that lawyer-speak thing where you confuse us all
49 Post contains images Pe@rson : It's all those pasties I eat!
50 Cornish : As long as they are proper Cornish ones and none of those rubbishy old Ginsters muck....
51 Pe@rson : Sadly all the locally-produced pasties aren't really available nation-wide! Well, not that I know of, anyhow.
52 Cornish : Going completely off post now - do you not get the West Cornish Pasty Co shops up your way? We've a fair few of them in the South East now, and I hav
53 Zonky : I'm gladd you RR keeps you warm at night. Frankly, i could care less. Wow. have you always been so emotionally stunted? In what way does this paint d
54 1MillionFlyer : Zonky I think you are more dense than a holiday fruit cake. Your logic defeats your last post. EXACTLY, there are many many things beyond an airlines
55 Pe@rson : It should be the airport's responsibility unless the proposed construction works were communicated to the airline well before the commencement of the
56 Bennett123 : I fail to see the problem here. I have a contract with U2 to fly me from GLA to BRS, if they fail to do so then that is breach of contract. I claim co
57 1MillionFlyer : No one is arguing that it is a breach if it was due to: Mechanical malfunction No Aircraft Available No Staff Available Oversold delayed or cancelled
58 LTBEWR : I am more familiar with the rules here in the USA for a flight to/from the USA or by a USA carrier. I do find it strange that the EU rules do not stat
59 Ruscoe : Tort lawyers, and litigatious people nearly caused the collapse of the health sysytem here a few year back. Lets hope this new law doesn't do the same
60 Lufthansa : Actually sam, I think it is going to be worse for full service carriers. Why? In general, LCC like easyjet who don't offer connections etc run ontime
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