Azjubilee From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 3656 posts, RR: 29 Reply 3, posted (8 years 9 months 3 weeks 17 hours ago) and read 3122 times:
This is what we know as FACT:
The Pilot leadership was in an important meeting over the weekend with mgmt. They were forced to sign gag orders/confidentiality agreements. No side has any information to report, but they will when they are able.
Whatever is being discussed is fueling every rumor possible. I'm not going to go into any of the rumors, because they're just that. Rumors and not worth discussing.
But should you feel you must discuss, discuss based on truth. Like, Mesaba will not operate any new 70 seat a/c without change in the NWA scope.
TOLtommy From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 3249 posts, RR: 4 Reply 5, posted (8 years 9 months 3 weeks 14 hours ago) and read 3011 times:
All firm orders for CRJ's have been placed at Pinnacle. There are still a number of options that could be placed wherever NW decides. I was connecting in DTW this evening before flying home to TOL, the agents were talking about a message from the Mesaba CEO who made an announcement that there was nothing to announce. Even I believe that there must be something going on.
Azjubilee From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 3656 posts, RR: 29 Reply 8, posted (8 years 9 months 2 weeks 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 2750 times:
Burnsie, we are not getting rid of saabs. There was a retirement plan in place 2 years ago, but that isn't happening. 106 was removed from the fleet and is in BGR now, probably to die. They're looking for a new saab to replace that one. Burnsie, on what basis do you know ANYTHING about the C8 deal?
Yes, NWA owns the flying above 50 seats, save for the avro. IMO NWA will dangle some sort of pension deal infront of the pilots, and they'll bite. Only to spit out the 70 seat scope. I dunno... unless NWA pilots and the rest of their colleagues work for "regional" sweat shop wages, they won't be economical and therefore will continue to put NWA in a precarious financial situation. Talk is cheap... when it comes down to it, most people will cave. Just look at the recent Comair pay freeze and the "virtual" strike that our MEC screwed up last January.
The avro cannot be replaced with another 70 seat a/c. They are grandfathered in and once they're gone, they're gone for good unless new scope is negotiated. Remember, ANYTHING can be negotiated.
As far as what the whole announcement is supposed to be about, again, nobody knows. The only people that know are MAIR mgmt and the MEC who have signed confidence agreements. The other thing that is known is that "most of the pilot group will like it." That's it. No more facts to go by.
Ejmmsu From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 1692 posts, RR: 0 Reply 10, posted (8 years 9 months 2 weeks 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 2586 times:
I hope they keep the avro's around for a while. I personally think they are the most comfortable coach product in the NW fleet, mainline or regional. However, I hear good things about the E-jets too. I guess if the E-Jets were to replace them, from a comfort standpoint I wouldn't be able to complain too much. I get to enjoy the Avro on saturday on my MEM-OKC return leg. I'll also get my first ever "Snack Box" experience on my outbound OKC-DTW leg on thursday evening.
"If the facts do not conform to the theory, they will have to be disposed of"
Azjubilee From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 3656 posts, RR: 29 Reply 11, posted (8 years 9 months 2 weeks 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 2525 times:
EJ - the jet airlink services agreement is set to expire in 2007. That is also when the leases start ending. NWA does however own the last 11 delivered. We'll see in a few years what they want to do with the plane. Comfort is the last thing on their mind... it's the $$$ that matters. The plane would be better off in an 85 seat config... especially with fewer people actually buying FC anymore.
BTW - 2 avros get new paint this month. Check 'em out.
Azjubilee From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 3656 posts, RR: 29 Reply 14, posted (8 years 9 months 2 weeks 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 2452 times:
Hahaa... anytime. The saabs are also getting new blue cloth seat covers. The whole fleet will be standardized this way and the company will save 2 pounds per seat. Avro/Saab carpets are being replaced as well as the avro seat refurb program. We've also polished as an experiment a saab and an avro. They look really good so hopefully the company will find that experiment a success and the rest of the planes will look nice as well.
AviatorTJ From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 1838 posts, RR: 7 Reply 16, posted (8 years 9 months 1 week 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 2207 times:
Quoting Azjubilee (Reply 14): Hahaa... anytime. The saabs are also getting new blue cloth seat covers. The whole fleet will be standardized this way and the company will save 2 pounds per seat. Avro/Saab carpets are being replaced as well as the avro seat refurb program. We've also polished as an experiment a saab and an avro. They look really good so hopefully the company will find that experiment a success and the rest of the planes will look nice as well.
I have a number of questions regarding the above, so if you would be so kind to do your best to share a little more, I would be very grateful. First, I heard that the scope clause is pretty much toast already and that what Burnsie says is quite the opposite of the truth. Example being that Express pilots could fly anything, including the E195s. Is this someone's prediction that I just misunderstood, or could it be garbage?
In the Saabs, with the new seat covers, are they replacing any of the padding or just the covers? On my most recent ride (444), the seats reminded me of leather wrapped bars. I look forward to seeing an update on the inside of these planes. They are a comfortable ride and good at what they do.
With the polished planes, does this just mean that the current paint has been polished or they were polished a la AA on planes like 441 or 503 (nearly bare metal). Even though I am assuming it is the former, I still like to hope things could be spiced up.
Will the repaints be ARJs only or will they try a SF3 again? Do you know dates or potential routings? Many thanks in advance for answering one or all.
PSU.DTW.SCE From United States of America, joined Jan 2002, 7194 posts, RR: 29 Reply 17, posted (8 years 9 months 1 week 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 2159 times:
The scope clause is still in effect, although it has been somewhat modified.
The original scope clause that was negotiated after the NW pilot strike in 1998 basically stated:
- NW flies everything with 70 seats or more
- Mesaba Avro's are grandfathered under the scope restrictions, limiting 36 of these aircraft, but they will be capped at 69 seats. (There was some odd provision that would've allowed for an additional 36 Avro's, but it never happened)
- A limit for aircraft with more than 44 seats: Thus the limited number of 50 seat CRJ's, with the remainder being capped at 44 seats, hence the CRJ-440's
- No hub overflying with aircraft of more than 44 seats (hence 44 seaters flying the MKE, IND, DSM, LAN, etc) routes. The Avro is allowed to overfly on GRR-DCA, due to the higher aircraft weight which is greater than the capped restricitons.
- Limited Airlink flying to Mesaba & Pinnacle
With the concessionary contract that was voted on last fall:
NW pilots relaxed the 44 seat cap, allowing for more 50 seat CRJ's. All remaining CRJ deliveries will be with 50 seats, and some existing 44 seaters will be converted in 50 seaters.
Allowed for a provision that would allow NW to add up to 40 RJ's for another regional airline in the event of another airline collapse. Hence the "third Airlink" provision, that was basically a hedge to use to big up an orphan regional who was looking for a place to put their RJ's should United, US, whoever go deep-6.
So, no, as of yet, the NW mainline pilots have not released the 70 seat scope. They haven't budged on the 50 seat and up scope, as it is still limited to the 36 Avro's.
It will be interesting to see what plays out. As AZJ predicts it is very likely the scope clause will be relaxed on the 70 seaters, but the 90 seaters will likely be a tough sticking point. Thats the wildcard here.
Some other things to consider:
Pinnacle CRJ deliveries will be running out at the end of '05, or early '06. They're up to 121 CRJ's now, leaving about 18 left to go. Doubtful we will see too many more 50 seaters delivered, there is only so many places they can economically be flown. However, IND expansion and several new cities coming online will take up most of the new deliveries for the time being. Gate space in DTW & MSP will become the constraining issue for the Airlinks.
The Avro's, I agree it makes sense for them to be 85 seaters, and that could very well happen. 69 seats just isn't economical. In scope negotiations it would make sense for them to give up some of the 70 seat issue, and allow the Avro's to become 85 seaters. Only problem now is, that Mesaba most likely can't be a 3 aircraft airline. Saabs, Avro's, and the new 70 seaters, something has got to give. Saab's are going anywhere anytime soon.
In terms of the Saab's, if XJ is looking for a replacement for 106, they might as well replace the rest of the A models with B's. With the seat cover replacement, those leather covers didn't age too well. They used to be a heck of a lot lighter when they were brand new.
Interesting times ahead. However, I bet the big news/annoucement was indeed the Mechanic's Strike Vote. Everything else has been rather quiet lately.
Oh, and why does 513 smell like mayonaisse???? That aircraft has a rank smell!