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Air Canada To Place Large Widebody Order  
User currently offlineAwschucksflyer From Canada, joined Nov 2003, 150 posts, RR: 0
Posted (9 years 5 months 4 weeks 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 14166 times:

In an internal memo, Air Canada is looking to place an order for 50 widebody aircraft over the next few months. The airline is looking at either the A350 or B787 (for delivery in 2010). The airline is looking for funding from either Boeing or Airbus to retro-fit existing B767 with new seats, in-seat tv's, and adding winglets to the 767, the latter the most interesting.

Let the debate begin!

69 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineBackfire From Germany, joined Oct 2006, 0 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (9 years 5 months 4 weeks 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 14091 times:

The debate will probably be: Did you, or did you not, use the 'search' button?  Wink

User currently offlineYVRtoYYZ From Canada, joined Mar 2004, 658 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (9 years 5 months 4 weeks 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 14015 times:

Old topic, dating back to January

http://www.airliners.net/discussions...eneral_aviation/read.main/1933246/

-YVRtoYYZ


User currently offlineTrvlr From United States of America, joined Feb 2000, 4430 posts, RR: 21
Reply 3, posted (9 years 5 months 4 weeks 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 13830 times:

How old is this "internal memo"?

Aaron G.


User currently offlineBeechnut From Canada, joined Apr 2004, 725 posts, RR: 10
Reply 4, posted (9 years 5 months 4 weeks 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 13785 times:

You can read it here yourself in the AC employee newsletter

http://www.achorizons.ca/en/issues/2005/NewHorizons.pdf

Mike


User currently offlineAA777 From United States of America, joined May 1999, 2544 posts, RR: 28
Reply 5, posted (9 years 5 months 4 weeks 10 hours ago) and read 11792 times:
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Ooh... 787 here we come. This is an order Boeing realllly cant afford to lose in my opinion... 50 airliners? Plus they already have the 767.... would make sense for them to stick w/ boeing for that size of an airliner... but then they also have the 340 / 330, so its really a toss-up. My guess is that they'll swing Boeing... esp since the 330 and 350 are really not all THAT different................ just my speculation though.

-AA777


User currently offlineKC135TopBoom From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 12138 posts, RR: 51
Reply 6, posted (9 years 5 months 4 weeks 10 hours ago) and read 11659 times:

If AC orders 50 B-787s, could this be the end of the A-350? I think the A-350 only has about 10 orders.

Or is it more likely that Air Canada splits the order for 25 B-787s and 25 A-350s?

The winglet proposal on the B-767s is interesting.


User currently offlineThrust From United States of America, joined Sep 2003, 2688 posts, RR: 10
Reply 7, posted (9 years 5 months 4 weeks 9 hours ago) and read 11610 times:

How much longer before AA buys the 787? they have $2.9 billion in cash right now...I'm just surprised they have not already placed an order for a small amount like CO did...I definitely agree that AC is more likely to choose the 787 mainly because it is so much more advanced than the A350, I guess....is the A350 to feature a bleedless air system and engines like the 787? If not, I'm almost certain who the winner is  Wink As for the winglet proposal on the Boeing 767, I would love to see that....but what would they do that raked wingtips cannot do?


Fly one thing; Fly it well
User currently offlineUnited Airline From Hong Kong, joined Jan 2001, 9168 posts, RR: 15
Reply 8, posted (9 years 5 months 4 weeks 9 hours ago) and read 11412 times:

Wonder if they will order any 2nd hand B 747-400s, B 747 Advanced or even the A 380 eventually.......

User currently offlineHZ747300 From Hong Kong, joined Mar 2004, 1668 posts, RR: 1
Reply 9, posted (9 years 5 months 4 weeks 9 hours ago) and read 11384 times:
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Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 6):
Or is it more likely that Air Canada splits the order for 25 B-787s and 25 A-350s?

Why would they split the order? That would not make any sense--they will pick one or the other.



Keep on truckin'...
User currently offlineUdo From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 10, posted (9 years 5 months 4 weeks 9 hours ago) and read 11365 times:

I expect Boeing to win this order, simply because the B787 offers more flexibility. AC can use B788/789 for long hauls and as a B767-300ER replacement, while B783 can be used efficiently on domestic and Caribbean runs.


Regards
Udo


User currently offlineFraT From Germany, joined Sep 2003, 1107 posts, RR: 1
Reply 11, posted (9 years 5 months 4 weeks 9 hours ago) and read 11306 times:



Quoting HZ747300 (Reply 9):
Why would they split the order? That would not make any sense--they will pick one or the other.

Because they split the most recent regional jet order between Embraer and Bombardier. Why shouldn't something like that happen again?


User currently offlineNYC777 From United States of America, joined Jun 2004, 5753 posts, RR: 47
Reply 12, posted (9 years 5 months 4 weeks 9 hours ago) and read 11237 times:

Interesting, in the newsletter article, it says that AC expects to make a decision by the end of this month.


That which does not kill me makes me stronger.
User currently offlineWhiteHatter From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 13, posted (9 years 5 months 4 weeks 9 hours ago) and read 11196 times:

My  twocents  is 787, on capacity grounds. A straight replacement for the 767 aircraft, and the A350 is possibly too much plane for some of their route network.

AC have been doing a general downsizing of capacity, and adding more with a jump from 763 seat numbers might not be the best idea for the carrier and its markets.


User currently offlineDeltaWings From Switzerland, joined Aug 2004, 1294 posts, RR: 17
Reply 14, posted (9 years 5 months 4 weeks 9 hours ago) and read 11084 times:

AC can use B788/789 for long hauls and as a B767-300ER replacement, while B783 can be used efficiently on domestic and Caribbean runs.

I agree. The 787 is a better 767 replacement, because of it's size. The A350 is no 762 replacement, it's too big, not like the 788. And if they want a bigger version they can get the 789. They will all be one family, so it would make things easier.


~DeltaWings



Homer: Marge, it takes two to lie. One to lie and one to listen.
User currently offlineLawgman From Canada, joined Feb 2005, 71 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (9 years 5 months 4 weeks 9 hours ago) and read 11063 times:

Does anyone believe Boeing will win this order? My guess is that Airbus will do whatever it takes to get this order. The only thing that I think gives Boeing a fighting chance is the fact the 787-800 and 900 may be better sizing for AC than the larger 350s.

Quoting United Airline (Reply 8):
Wonder if they will order any 2nd hand B 747-400s, B 747 Advanced or even the A 380 eventually

AC got rid of their 747-400s last year and I don't think they will ever order the 380. These aircraft are too big. The biggest we will see from AC would be 340-600 / 777-300 sizing.


User currently offlineKL808 From United States of America, joined May 1999, 1584 posts, RR: 2
Reply 16, posted (9 years 5 months 4 weeks 8 hours ago) and read 10565 times:

How about pricing? Wouldnt Airbus give a better discount since they would be the 2nd airline to order it after Air Europa. Is discounting by Boeing already done for launch customers for the B787?

Drew



AMS-LAX-MNL
User currently offlineYUL332LX From Canada, joined Feb 2004, 820 posts, RR: 1
Reply 17, posted (9 years 5 months 4 weeks 7 hours ago) and read 10432 times:



Quoting DeltaWings (Reply 14):
The A350 is no 762 replacement, it's too big, not like the 788. And if they want a bigger version they can get the 789. They will all be one family, so it would make things easier.

The A358 and 788 will have virtually the same seating capacity so this is pointless. The A359 is a perfect match for the A333/343; the 789 is not (unless it gets the three-row stretch)



E volavo, volavo felice più in alto del sole, e ancora più su mentre il mondo pian piano spariva lontano laggiù ...
User currently offlineDIA From United States of America, joined Jan 2001, 3273 posts, RR: 28
Reply 18, posted (9 years 5 months 4 weeks 7 hours ago) and read 10129 times:

Okay, I'll walk out on the limb then. . .

I think this one will be going to Boeing and the 787. Just want to get that out there. . .oh, and the 787 would be a perfect match for them too.  box 

[Edited 2005-03-10 17:35:23]

Specifically commenting on ONLY the 787/A350 order, not the 777/A340 order!

[Edited 2005-03-10 17:48:43]


Ding! You are now free to keep supporting Frontier.
User currently offlineSebring From Canada, joined Jul 2004, 1663 posts, RR: 14
Reply 19, posted (9 years 5 months 4 weeks 7 hours ago) and read 10088 times:

For the upteenth time, this order will be for two, not one aircraft types. It will either be a combination of Boeing 777/787s, or Airbus 346/350s. And yes, Air Canada does want to have a bit more capacity than it gets from a 343 or 345 for routes like Toronto-London, Toronto-Frankfurt, Montreal-Paris and Vancouver-Tokyo. The reason it got rid of 747s was that the all-passenger models had too much capacity for year-round operations and the combis had poor overall economics. But a 325-seat aircraft like the 773 or 346 would work very nicely on AC's route network.

My guess is that this deal will have about 90 orders and options, split about 60/30. AC has about 70 widebodies now. The 787/350 component is about 50 units, plus 10 or so for growth, while the 777/346 component would be about 20 units, plus 10 or so for growth. AC needs capacity starting next year, and since the 787 won't be flying in commercial service for another few years, the front end aircraft (777/346) is very important.

What AC has asked Boeing and Airbus to do is quote on the replacement of the entire widebody fleet, plus growth aircraft. Obviously, this is a long-term replacement program since AC has some fairly new 767s, ergo the proposal to have the winning bidder fund the installation of winglets and interior cabin refits for that portion of the 767 fleet that will last well into the next decade. However, I am of the view that AC will also have the winner re-market some of its current larger widebodies - the 343s and 345s in particular, but not necessarily the 333s - which shouldn't be hard to do since you can hardly find a decent sized Airbus widebody on the used market these days.

Also, Air Canada will not order several Boeing or Airbus variants. It does not want the 777-200ER, the 777-300ER, the 777-200LR, the 777-200... It will order at most two of these and possibly only one (the 777-300ER). Similarly, with Airbus, it would order the 346-HGW and keep the 333. It would in all likelihood get rid of all 343. The airline has stated a preference for simplicity - not complexity. It finds more value in having an interchangeable fleet rather than one with the perfect A market, B market, C market mix. It does not want to have a situation where the inbound London-Toronto flight (let's say its a 777-300ER) lands with a problem and can't go back out to London, and all it has is a domestic 777 available as a spare). It wants the ability to take any widebody and send it overseas in place of that 777, which AC believes will optimize utilization. What it loses in unit operating efficiency (running a 773ER on a five-hour flight, for example), it believes it can get back through higher unit utilization (not having aircraft sit because they can't do particular missions as required).


User currently offlineBicoastal From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 20, posted (9 years 5 months 4 weeks 6 hours ago) and read 9905 times:

Does anyone know if any Airbus and/or Boeing components are made in Canada?

User currently offlineLawgman From Canada, joined Feb 2005, 71 posts, RR: 0
Reply 21, posted (9 years 5 months 4 weeks 6 hours ago) and read 9840 times:



Quoting Bicoastal (Reply 20):
Does anyone know if any Airbus and/or Boeing components are made in Canada?

There will be zero consideration as to whether any components of the planes will be built in Canada. This issue is a non-starter. If it were, Air Canada would not have ordered the 100+ Embraer planes. All variations of the CRJ are assembled in Canada and I believe that the 717 had components built in Canada.


User currently offlineNYC777 From United States of America, joined Jun 2004, 5753 posts, RR: 47
Reply 22, posted (9 years 5 months 4 weeks 6 hours ago) and read 9823 times:

I think Boeing Canada has some work for the 787.


That which does not kill me makes me stronger.
User currently offlineClickhappy From United States of America, joined Sep 2001, 9629 posts, RR: 68
Reply 23, posted (9 years 5 months 4 weeks 6 hours ago) and read 9804 times:
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The 787 is quite a bit cheaper than the A350, isn't it?

User currently offlineYyz717 From Canada, joined Sep 2001, 16248 posts, RR: 56
Reply 24, posted (9 years 5 months 4 weeks 6 hours ago) and read 9767 times:

For the upteenth time, this order will be for two, not one aircraft types. It will either be a combination of Boeing 777/787s, or Airbus 346/350s.

For the "umpteenth" time? Who are you to predict the future, let alone stifle other opinions? Until the order is placed, no one knows what the breakdown will be. Whether all 787, a mix of 787/777 with several 777 models, or ditto on the Airbus side.

Your guess is no better than anyone else's.



Panam, TWA, Ansett, Eastern.......AC next? Might be good for Canada.
25 Sebring : Actually, my "guess" is a lot better than yours because I have a source on the AC committee making the decision. Not that he's going to give the sligh
26 Yyz717 : Actually, my "guess" is a lot better than yours because I have a source on the AC committee making the decision. Not that he's going to give the sligh
27 N1120A : Or just use the 788 on all of them
28 Sebring : Maybe, but since another AC source - not the same as mine - gave out similar details at a meeting of FlyerTalk frequent flyers in Toronto last Friday,
29 Post contains links YOWguy : Only Robert Milton knows which way he will select...whether it be Airbus, Boeing or a mix of both. He is trying to get the most for AC's money. At the
30 Post contains images A388 : Which airline doesn't see Asia as a growth market A388
31 Dalecary : Sebring, can you tell us what you would regard as the best mix for AC here? I would still regard a split order as a viable option as the 340 is incumb
32 Milan320 : Check the Airbus site for suppliers, I think Goodrich is mentioned for the A380s' landing gear. Plus some unmentioned ones, including some cabin comp
33 Sunnyb : I vote for A350 because it only makes sense to save maintenance, training and other costs.
34 SNATH : Very interesting! I assume these ultra-long range ones would be for services from the East Coast to Asia? Tony
35 Dalecary : Can anyone repeat the AEF rumour that Sebring doesn't is hesitant to do? I don't even know what AEF is.
36 KL808 : I believe too that some how IMHO that AC will go for the A350, because of cost. Cost in a sense that Airbus will give a discount for being the second
37 YUL332LX : It is but in this case, the A350 might very well be cheaper for AC considering that Air Canada would be the prime launch customer for this type and t
38 Sebring : Sebring, can you tell us what you would regard as the best mix for AC here? I would still regard a split order as a viable option as the 340 is incumb
39 PennPal : Just an observation, but here's another thread regarding a major aircraft order, where most of the opinions are that the Boeing product would better s
40 Post contains links QFA001 : How about this chestnut? http://finance.groups.yahoo.com/group/orders/message/27910
41 United Airline : Well they got rid of them partly because of engine deals. Heard that AC is interested in P/W powered second hand B 747-400s. Not sure if they still d
42 SunriseValley : There was a recent thread that AirNZ had looked at cabin refits for their 767-300ER but had decided against it since there would be an increase in we
43 Sebring : I guess it all depends how you reconfigure the cabin. Adding in PTVs probably adds weight, but who is to say that the seat type you buy can't offset s
44 L-188 : Entitled, no. No carrier is "entitled" to a discount.
45 AC7E7 : I believe AC's A340-600 order can be cancelled without penalty. As one of the launch carriers, it is normal practice to offer airlines very steep dis
46 EnviroTO : My bet is that Air Canada is leaning towards Boeing and it will all come down to the discounts Airbus gives. Milton had been interested in the 777 bef
47 NYC777 : I don't know about ''better'' but the A350 wing will feature more composite than the 787. The 787 wing is supposed to be all composite so I don't know
48 Gigneil : The 787's wing is not going to be all composite, and the A350 wing does actually feature more composites. That being said, of course the 787 is more c
49 AC320 : Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't 2010 about the same time when the A350 should be about ready? While the details haven't been completely set in ston
50 YUL332LX : Let's say ''granted'' then. Happy now? The point remains the same however. Wrong. See reply 48.
51 Columba : I think that is an option for Lufthansa. 787-300 as a A300 replacement, 787-800 for low density long haul flights, maybe TXL-EWR ( I hope for it) or
52 QFA001 : I hope you're not fibbing again, Gigneil. If you are happy enough to agree with the claim made, then you must know about the design of both the A350
53 Gigneil : The 787 will also have metallic leading edge devices, and I've seen some reports that the inner flaps may be metal as well. N[Edited 2005-03-12 01:36:
54 Post contains links and images B2707SST : You're certain the A350 will not have metallic leading edges? Most composite primary structures have aluminum- or titanium-reinforced leading edges,
55 Post contains images Lockheed1011 : Air Canada is going the right direction this time! Switching the Widebody fleet to Boeing and keeping the narrowbody with Airbus. Congratulations Air
56 AirbusCanada : I believe AC's A340-600 order can be cancelled without penalty. AC's deliveries were deferred, not canceled. I think the delivery is scheduled around
57 Post contains images CPDC10-30 : The order for the 346s was deferred, and indeed it can be cancelled without penalty. If you believe the rumours, AC got a hell of a deal on those A345
58 SNATH : Is the above percentage for the B788? This is a stupid question but, given that the B789 will have a longer fuselage but the same wing, will it also
59 Carpethead : How about a split order amongst Airbus & Boeing? Say a few A333/A345/A346 for short to medium term growth until the B787s arrive with the B787 for lon
60 QFA001 : You are a lazy bugger aren't you, Gigneil? You continue to regurgitate rubbish because you can't be bothered doing the smallest amount of research. H
61 Scbriml : If all of Boeing's MOU's for 787s turn in to orders, then I don't think any new 787 customers will still "qualify" for launch customer discounts.
62 QFA001 : Didn't you just make two presumptions? 1. That AC doesn't hold refundable B787 deposits; and 2. That the B787 launch phase is over?
63 Post contains images Scbriml : No! I said MOUs, but in my head at least, included refundable deposits. So, my opinion is that any airline that hasn't already announced their intent
64 Post contains images Bmacleod : I putting on AC cancelling the 346 and going for the 777 and the 787 as a replacement for its 767s. There is no Airbus replacement for the 767 and the
65 DeltaWings : The A350 is exactly the same size as the A330, both -200 and -300 versions. The A310 is the 762 compeditor, but now that Boeing is bringing out the 7
66 Gigneil : Better than you, you contribute nothing to the forum at all except your scathing wit. You claim to know everything, yet say nothing. N
67 N1120A : Well, there really is not much scathing wit, so I would say nothing is the word there.
68 Post contains images WunalaYann : Wow. Some people have very short tempers, here.
69 Post contains images QFA001 : Fair enough. The launch discounts have to stop at some point. I'm not sure that I share you view, but there you have it. FWIW, the refundable deposit
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