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Does UA Have The Hardest Competition At Their Hubs  
User currently offlineCOEWR777 From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 428 posts, RR: 1
Posted (9 years 1 month 2 weeks 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 4375 times:

Lets see at Denver there is frontier, at dulles there is Indy air, at Ord there is AA and Sw at midway, Sfo not much competition there and LAX not a major hub but AA and Del. Im not saying Lax is a hub but there busy there.

29 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineTWFirst From Vatican City, joined Apr 2000, 6346 posts, RR: 52
Reply 1, posted (9 years 1 month 2 weeks 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 4361 times:

Don't forget NW at NRT.


An unexamined life isn't worth living.
User currently offlineCOEWR777 From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 428 posts, RR: 1
Reply 2, posted (9 years 1 month 2 weeks 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 4353 times:

If we are going to include Non us places LHR not really a hub but very busy.

User currently offlineSHUPirate1 From United States of America, joined Sep 2003, 3670 posts, RR: 17
Reply 3, posted (9 years 1 month 2 weeks 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 4349 times:

COEWR-LAX IS a United hub. And BTW, the largest carrier at LAX isn't American, Delta, or United, but instead Southwest (in terms of O&D traffic).


Burma's constitutional referendum options: A. Yes, B. Go to Insein Prison!
User currently offlineCOEWR777 From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 428 posts, RR: 1
Reply 4, posted (9 years 1 month 2 weeks 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 4336 times:

I am just mentioning the competition there and i didnt want to say LAx was a hub because i was not 100% sure it was labled a hub. If i did and i was wrong i would have those people with there heads up their ass yelling at me.

User currently offlineAADC10 From United States of America, joined Nov 2004, 2019 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (9 years 1 month 2 weeks 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 4303 times:

UA was one of the most exposed to LCCs of the majors, which is why they ended up in bankruptcy. The have a large presence in the West, where early LCCs and later Southwest hit it hard. AA was somewhat protected from WN in Texas by the Wright Amendment.

While UA has little competition at SFO, WN dominates nearby Oakland, across the bay. B6 and others operate out of OAK as well. At IAD JetBlue, America West and AirTran have flights there, in addition to the IndyAir hub and there is a large American airlines presence. As at the San Francisco Bay, Southwest dominates BWI, which serves the same market.

UA says that LAX is a hub, but it sure does not look like it. All of the majors have a significant presence at LAX and Southwest now has the most flights from there. JetBlue serves the market from LGB and soon from BUR.

There has been speculation that creditors will force UA to close a hub, IAD considered the most vulnerable, although DEN is on the table as well. IAD is the smallest and weakest, but it serves the East coast, where UA is weakest. DEN, despite Frontier, still dominates the market, but as a hub, it overlaps ORD. However, as caps are being placed on O'Hare, DEN has tons of capacity so flights can be moved there to relieve ORD.

All of the majors except for Northwest and Continental are facing stiff competition at their hubs now. UA got undercut first.


User currently offlineCOEWR777 From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 428 posts, RR: 1
Reply 6, posted (9 years 1 month 2 weeks 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 4290 times:

For CO we have Jet blue at Jfk and alot of carriers have a large amount of flights from LGA/JFk. Not posotive but SW at hobby is big and thats in Houston same with Iah.

User currently offlineSHUPirate1 From United States of America, joined Sep 2003, 3670 posts, RR: 17
Reply 7, posted (9 years 1 month 2 weeks 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 4262 times:

AADC10-I can't help but think that, if United was forced to close one of its hubs, that it would be one of the West-Coast hubs, probably Los Angeles. United being forced to shut down San Francisco, Denver, or Northern Virginia would mean a SEVERE loss of air service at the respective airports, and with United's headquarters being there, Chicago-O'Hare isn't going anywhere.


Burma's constitutional referendum options: A. Yes, B. Go to Insein Prison!
User currently offlineN1120A From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 26196 posts, RR: 76
Reply 8, posted (9 years 1 month 2 weeks 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 4234 times:



Quoting COEWR777 (Thread starter):
Lets see at Denver there is frontier, at dulles there is Indy air, at Ord there is AA and Sw at midway, Sfo not much competition there and LAX not a major hub but AA and Del. Im not saying Lax is a hub but there busy there.

LAX is a UA hub, they even operate in banks there. They do have a lot of competition, most of it coming from WN, AA and to a point AS, as the other big carriers mainly do hub flights and Hawai'i

Quoting AADC10 (Reply 5):
UA says that LAX is a hub, but it sure does not look like it. All of the majors have a significant presence at LAX and Southwest now has the most flights from there. JetBlue

Of the majors, only WN, AA, UA and to a lesser point AS actually have what can be called a major presence

Quoting COEWR777 (Reply 6):
For CO we have Jet blue at Jfk and alot of carriers have a large amount of flights from LGA/JFk. Not posotive but SW at hobby is big and thats in Houston same with Iah.

EWR not only pulls from NYC, but PHL and the State of NJ. Also, they absolutely domminate IAH. Hubbing is not just about competition but also space at the airport.



Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
User currently offlineCX750 From United States of America, joined Dec 2004, 155 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (9 years 1 month 2 weeks 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 4203 times:

AADC10,

IAD is probably the strongest UA hub, and most protected.


User currently offlineCOEWR777 From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 428 posts, RR: 1
Reply 10, posted (9 years 1 month 2 weeks 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 4198 times:

What do you mean by strongest?

User currently offlineAa777jr From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 11, posted (9 years 1 month 2 weeks 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 4190 times:

UA has to compete heavily with AA at JFK.

User currently offlineWingnutMN From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 633 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (9 years 1 month 2 weeks 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 4154 times:

I think that NW has the most competition of all the majors.......MSP- there is SY, Champion, and the usual suspects. DTW- there is Spirit, and in MEM there is Fedex...............WE NEED MORE COMPETITION!

WingnutMN



Any landing you can walk away from is a good landing! It's a bonus if you can fly the plane again!!
User currently offlineJuventus From United States of America, joined Dec 2004, 2835 posts, RR: 2
Reply 13, posted (9 years 1 month 2 weeks 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 4129 times:

I think that is the reason why UAL and AA are suffering the most. These two majors, have the best hubs in America, by far. But, they also face the most competition, specially from the foreign airlines. CO and NW, with horrible hubs usually do better than most becuase they have nobody to compete agaisnt.

User currently offlineRoseFlyer From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 9385 posts, RR: 52
Reply 14, posted (9 years 1 month 2 weeks 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 4117 times:

UA may have a lot of competition at its hubs, but you have to remember that they are in some of the highest O/D markets in the country. A city like ORD can handle a double hub with UA and AA. UA is larger then AA (kind of like AA and DL in DFW. UA puts way more passengers through ORD and advertises as a home town airline. UA benefits by having a very good set of hubs. The only high yielding city (that is not artificially high like MSP or CVG is NYC. But an airline can't expect everything.

LAX can certainly handle a lot of traffic. Yields however have fallen on short flights with WN and HP serving the southwest very well with short cheap flights. UA does not fight against them too much since Shuttle by United failed. They use Skywest feeder service to take them places in the southwest where WN doesn't go. They also have good service to business destinations in the east and offer first class, which is somewhat important on transcons. UA doesn't try to dominate LAX and destroy WN now like they tried and failed at with Shuttle. TED serves Las Vegas, but most of the other inter california service is on CRJs and EMB 120s (with the exception of SFO).

IAD is the big question since it doesn't have enough O/D to serve as two airline's hubs. DCA takes a lot of the passengers away that pay premium fares. BWI already has a big WN presence along with FL so fares there are cheap too. IAD can't survive like it is now. The perimeter rule isn't enough to allow for a dual hub with a LCC like is currently going on. I predict like many that one of them will go due to economic forces.

DEN is the final question. F9 is doing well and operating cheap service, but UA still appeals to the higher yielding passengers because they go a lot of places that F9 doesn't, even though that is rapidly changing. But DEN has served as a dual hub in the past. It wasn't that long ago that CO was there too. So maybe the city can support two hubs kind of like how ATL does. Of course FL and DL are much bigger in ATL then UA and F9, but still it might work.

SFO of course is a good hub with decent fares and little low cost competition due to high landing fees. WN at OAK and SJC steals many low yielding passengers, but with its huge Pacific presence and domestic domination at the airport, UA can do well there.

[Edited 2005-03-10 23:00:02]

[Edited 2005-03-10 23:33:08]


If you have never designed an airplane part before, let the real designers do the work!
User currently offlineN1120A From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 26196 posts, RR: 76
Reply 15, posted (9 years 1 month 2 weeks 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 4101 times:



Quoting Aa777jr (Reply 11):
UA has to compete heavily with AA at JFK

UA is much, much smaller at JFK than AA is. New York is not a hub city for UA



Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
User currently offlineCOEWR777 From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 428 posts, RR: 1
Reply 16, posted (9 years 1 month 2 weeks 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 4033 times:



Quoting Juventus (Reply 13):
the reason why UAL and AA are suffering the most. These two majors, have the best hubs in America, by far. But, they also face the most competition, specially from the foreign airlines. CO and NW, with horrible hubs usually do better than most becuase they have nobody to compete agaisnt.

What are you talking about Ewr is a great hub i am sure most airlines would kill to have a hub there. Its a good location. Iah houston has the 4th or 5th i think 5th biggest population in America.


User currently offlineUal777 From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 1519 posts, RR: 5
Reply 17, posted (9 years 1 month 2 weeks 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 3993 times:

Let me break it down for you:

ORD- By far United's biggest and most prized hub. This hub will not go anywhere because United uses it for most of the U.S., some pacific, and most of their European ops.

DEN- United kicked CO out and from what I've heard, TED is suprisingly successful agains F9. DEN, however is primarily a domestic hub(also serves HNL) however, they serve latin-american destinations and used to serve FRA as well. The competition is there but it is not intolerable.

IAD- Dulles is extremely important for UA's European operation. LHR, CDG, AMS, FRA, and MUC all have 777 service and I believe that ZRH has 767 from Dulles as well. In addition, Brazil and Argentina are served from dulles with 767s. As far as competition, I believe that Indyair can safely be called a dud. ALL of their first officers were laid off due to Indyair returning leased aircraft and with their yields and abysmal load factor, they need to do something an fast.

SFO- Big on Pacific ops and is a sanctuary from WN. Also serves Europe from the westcoast. Not going anywhere.

LAX- An enigma to us all. UA has a lot of traffic out of LAX to Mexico and Guatamala. In additon I believe that they serve some Pacific as well.

My prediction: I do not believe that any hub will be sacrificed, however if anything was to happen, I believe that it would be a domestic traffic reduction at LAX with the central american flights preserved.



It is always darkest before the sun comes up.
User currently offlineAADC10 From United States of America, joined Nov 2004, 2019 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (9 years 1 month 2 weeks 2 days ago) and read 3934 times:

Quoting SHUPirate1 (Reply 7):
I can't help but think that, if United was forced to close one of its hubs, that it would be one of the West-Coast hubs, probably Los Angeles.

UA management does not want to close any hubs. They would only do so if forced to by the creditors in bankruptcy court. Los Angeles is not really a hub in a normal sense. It does have a number of United Express flights and it is the gateway for the Australia flights and several flights to Mexico but they cut several of its direct international destinations some time ago, such as HKG, CDG, and KIX. It seems to have more O&D traffic than connecting passengers. LAX does have low landing fees, much lower than SFO or DEN.

Quoting CX750 (Reply 9):
IAD is probably the strongest UA hub, and most protected.

What makes it the "strongest"? Unlike UA's other real hubs (I am declaring Los Angeles a fake hub) it was deliberately created, unlike ORD, SFO and DEN which essentially existed before deregulation. It has the fewest passengers of the hubs and there is room for LCCs to move in without having to face WN directly. B6 has several flights out of IAD and could add more. UA was certainly not "protected" from IndyAir and I know many people in Northern Virgnina who dirve to BWI to fly on WN.

I would think that the "strongest" hubs would be ORD or SFO. Obviously AA is also at ORD, but there is little LCC competition in ORD and Chicago is a huge O&D market and is in the Central time zone, the ideal hub location. The LCCs are over at Midway but UA has LCCs either in their hub or in the same market at every hub.

SFO is dominated by UA and is the Pacific gateway, the most profitable part of the system. IAD could be eliminated as a hub but remain an international gateway, as MIA had for a few years before UA moved most of the Latin America operations to the hubs.

Again, current UA management would only shut IAD as a hub if the creditors held a gun to their head (or threatened to replace them) but if the creditors want to restructure UAL as a smaller airline they would kill IAD, DEN and the alleged LAX as hubs and the airline would be very different but would still be able to cover most of the country.


User currently offlineUALAX From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 145 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (9 years 1 month 2 weeks 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 3885 times:

AAD10: How is Los Angeles a fake hub? Granted it's no ORD or DEN, It offers 100+ mainline flights, 200+ flights with express. It's used as a connecting point to Asia, the South Pacific and Central America, not to mention all the *Alliance connections

User currently offlineUA772IAD From Australia, joined Jul 2004, 1698 posts, RR: 3
Reply 20, posted (9 years 1 month 2 weeks 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 3876 times:

AADC10:
IAD is certainly NOT the weakest hub, that is proposterous (bias aside!). As stated above, IAD handles ALL EUROPEAN destinations (plus some that ORD doesn't have: MUC (for now at least), ZCH, BRU)... the loads on these flights are great (hence the increase of 744 service at Dulles, and upgraded 777 service to routes such as MUC)... and not to mention S. American traffic. You people just don't get it, IAD is a huge and vital hub (and it would be to any other airline that dominated it). Granted Washington may not be the largest city in the US (I mean you can't compare it to ORD or LAX...) it is HUGE for tourism and HUGE because the federal government is the LARGEST employer in the area (over 5 million jobs). How do you think all the bureacrats fly, certainly not private, not even Senators fly private, unless they can hitchike on AF-1.
The argument that UA isn't big on the East coast is also a premis. The East Coast is not as developed and heavly populated as the west coast. You have pockes of large cities: Boston, NYC/NJ, Baltimore/Annapolis, DC-Richmond, Charlotte, Atlanta, down to Fl, and THATS It. Nothing but farmland and small cities in between. Also, look at how centrally located DC is compared to NYC, ORD, MIA. It makes PERFECT sense to be there, and it eases traffic off of the "traditional" ports of entry (NYC and ORD, mainly).
INDY is NOT a threat to UA, who dominates O&D at Dulles. The people who drive the 2 hours to Baltimore either cannot afford more than WN, or are just flying somewhere short distance, and do not want to fork out the money. Unless you live in N. Mongomery County/PG Cty, BWI is not convenient. Most Washingtonians are United customers, anyways. Perhaps your right that IAD isn't the biggest domestic desitnation, but it's a huge mid point... The Northeast corridor is huge (DCA-LGA-BOS), and flights to Florida and Colorado are also big. I don't know what else I can say, but IAD is vital to UA operations, and if they were to lose it, it would kill them.


User currently offlineNoMoreRJs From United States of America, joined Sep 2004, 423 posts, RR: 0
Reply 21, posted (9 years 1 month 2 weeks 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 3829 times:

"The East Coast is not as developed and heavly populated as the west coast. You have pockes of large cities: Boston, NYC/NJ, Baltimore/Annapolis, DC-Richmond, Charlotte, Atlanta, down to Fl, and THATS It. Nothing but farmland and small cities in between. Also, look at how centrally located DC is compared to NYC, ORD, MIA."

Interesting. Last time I drove down I95 along the east coast there was no farmland, just traffic! DC centrally located, if you live between NY and ORF. Drive I57 and I55 south out of Chicago, you will go nuts seeing nothing but corn and soy beans on the trip to New Orleans (you do get St. Louis, Memphis, and Jackson - hardly the east coast population).

I agree IAD is important to UA, but not as important as ORD and SFO. UA can connect Tokyo, Osaka, Hong Kong, Beijing, and Shanghai (and soon more cities in Asia) to South America (GRU and EZE) via ORD.


User currently offlineRIOJANEIRO From United States of America, joined Dec 2000, 121 posts, RR: 0
Reply 22, posted (9 years 1 month 2 weeks 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 3816 times:

Ok.... so I am assuming we are talking about which airline hub(including UA) has the biggest competition??

Or are we talking about which UA hub has the most competition?

A litte bit confused here, folks. Regardless, I'm surprised nobody has brought up HP's hubs at PHX/LAS. Both offer terrible yields (on the majority of routes, as opposed to other parts of the country), have the largest WN presence in the nation, with an extremely loyal customer base, I can only imagine where HP would be if they hadn't restructured their fare structure. In addition to having the lowest CASM's in the country, agressive advertising, and the money in the bank to expand aggresively, I cannot compare any other hub nationwide with as much competition as PHX/LAS.


User currently offlineUA772IAD From Australia, joined Jul 2004, 1698 posts, RR: 3
Reply 23, posted (9 years 1 month 2 weeks 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 3789 times:

Quoting NoMoreRJs (Reply 21):
Last time I drove down I95 along the east coast there was no farmland, just traffic! DC centrally located, if you live between NY and ORF

Agreed, there is traffic as urban sprawl in DC continues to grow, but it is still nothing compared to the west coast, CA in particular. There aren't too many big cities that would make profitable hubs (arguably, why DL continues to lose it's ALT-China bids), and why CLT-Europe isn't as strong as it should be for US.


User currently offlineLvkewlkid From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 104 posts, RR: 0
Reply 24, posted (9 years 1 month 2 weeks 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 3775 times:

Quoting AADC10 (Reply 5):
Southwest now has the most flights from there

That would be incorrect, WN has the most flights from LAS.

Quoting RIOJANEIRO (Reply 22):
I cannot compare any other hub nationwide with as much competition as PHX/LAS.

LAS also has Allegiant as part of HP and WNs competition.


25 RoseFlyer : UA772IAD, Man I am sorry I don't like flaming people, but I cannot disagree with you more on the west coast being heavily populated compared to the ea
26 Post contains links UA772IAD : http://www.census.gov/geo/www/maps/m...previews_htm/cbsa_us_wall_1203.htm I'm always up for a good firing at. Your right, I'm wrong. My views were str
27 Tockeyhockey : this is kind of a crazy thread. how can you argue that UA is the carrier with the most competition at its hubs when it basically owns one of the two b
28 MAH4546 : Excepet for the fact US Airways and Delta are suffering significantly more than AA, which itself isn't that much worse off than NW and CO.
29 SESGDL : All the majors are suffering, and let's say, if losses continued for 10 years in the exact way they are now, all of the big 6 would be gone. That's n
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