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Why No Delta Routes To China From JFK?  
User currently offlineJumbojet From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 1159 posts, RR: 0
Posted (9 years 4 months 2 weeks 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 5441 times:

I have often wondered, why doesnt Delta offer routes to China from JFK? Since they have a pretty extensive European network from JFK, why not China? Maybe that will increase there chances of landing future service to China destinations. Is there something that prohibits them from flying JFK to China? Just curious. Nothing is written down where China routes have to originate from Atlanta, any theories on this?

thx

steve

34 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineAeroWesty From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 20358 posts, RR: 62
Reply 1, posted (9 years 4 months 2 weeks 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 5437 times:

1) Frequencies are limited by bilateral agreements,
2) In the last round of route allotments Delta applied for service ex-ATL.

Apparently they don't want to fly to China from JFK. There are a number of threads on US-China service available through the search function.  Smile



International Homo of Mystery
User currently offlineRDUDDJI From Lesotho, joined Jun 2004, 1455 posts, RR: 3
Reply 2, posted (9 years 4 months 2 weeks 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 5438 times:

DL wanted to get the domestic pax lift from their ATL hub. They don't have a major domestic presence in JFK.

Plus JFK has service to China from many other carriers which would limit their premiums on fares.



Sometimes we don't realize the good times when we're in them
User currently offlineSESGDL From United States of America, joined Jan 2001, 3466 posts, RR: 10
Reply 3, posted (9 years 4 months 2 weeks 2 days ago) and read 5422 times:

Quoting RDUDDJI (Reply 2):
DL wanted to get the domestic pax lift from their ATL hub. They don't have a major domestic presence in JFK.

From JFK domestically DL serves:

SEA, SFO, LAX, LAS, DEN, STL, ORD, DTW, IND, CMH, CVG, ATL, DCA, IAD, BWI, PHL, ORF, CHS, CAE, RDU, GSO, JAX, PNS, TLH, MCO, TPA, RSW, FLL, PBI, BOS, CLT, GSP, MLB, MYR, PIT, SLC, SJU, and SAV. That's more destinations than any other carrier at JFK. I'd say DL's network at JFK is sizable.

Jeremy


User currently offlineSTLGph From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 9293 posts, RR: 25
Reply 4, posted (9 years 4 months 2 weeks 2 days ago) and read 5375 times:

I think Delta would be smarter to look into Salt Lake City to China. Or maybe there are just a lot of Chinese who wish to take their kids to Disney World?


Eternal darkness we all should dread. It's hard to party when you're dead.
User currently offlineBobnwa From United States of America, joined Dec 2000, 6440 posts, RR: 9
Reply 5, posted (9 years 4 months 2 weeks 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 5311 times:

Jeremy,

Of the many cities you listed as having DL service to JFK; not too many would be a convieniant connection to China. Maybe DCA, IAD, BWI,PHL,BOS, but the rest, no. It would be faster to head west for a connection!

Junbojet,
DL doesn't have the authority to fly to China from JFK.


User currently offlineGigneil From United States of America, joined Nov 2002, 16347 posts, RR: 85
Reply 6, posted (9 years 4 months 2 weeks 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 5283 times:

Delta applied for JFK-China routes the time prior to this last route, and none were awarded to them.

N


User currently offlineRamerinianAir From United States of America, joined Nov 2003, 1486 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (9 years 4 months 2 weeks 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 5256 times:

SESGDL,
Who is going to connect from SEA, SFO, LAX, LAS, DEN, STL, ORD, DTW, IND, CMH, CVG, ATL . . . .etc . . . to go to China?
Also, DL lacks the long range A/C that could service this route. I do not think that their 763ER could service these routes.
SR



W N = my Worst Nightmare!!!!!
User currently offlineGigneil From United States of America, joined Nov 2002, 16347 posts, RR: 85
Reply 8, posted (9 years 4 months 2 weeks 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 5245 times:

When DL first pitched China (1999) they had just received their first 777, and were planning to put 777s on the China routes while the M11s continued to ply their Europe and Tokyo routes.

N


User currently offlineTinPusher007 From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 970 posts, RR: 1
Reply 9, posted (9 years 4 months 2 weeks 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 5242 times:

SESGDL...Um DL does operate 8 777-232ER's with plenty of range to operate JFK-PEK/PVG.


"Flying isn't inherently dangerous...but very unforgiving of carelessness, incapacity or neglect."
User currently offlineJumbojet From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 1159 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (9 years 4 months 2 weeks 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 5167 times:

Quoting Gigneil (Reply 6):
Delta applied for JFK-China routes the time prior to this last route, and none were awarded to them.

Why would none be awarded to them? After all, Delta has more international flights out of JFK then they do ATL. Apparently, Delta has been denied multiple times routes to China. Why is it, that China routes are some of the most profitable out there?


User currently offlineRamerinianAir From United States of America, joined Nov 2003, 1486 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (9 years 4 months 2 weeks 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 5146 times:

I think the real question is . . . Who does CO and AA know on the inside that DL doesn't???
SR



W N = my Worst Nightmare!!!!!
User currently offlineWDBRR From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 610 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (9 years 4 months 2 weeks 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 5111 times:

Delta has the largest hub in the world in ATL.
If you cannot get somewhere from ATL, the place
doesn't exist. They have a huge feed of traffic
there that would fill up the China flight.


User currently offlineJumbojet From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 1159 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (9 years 4 months 2 weeks 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 5082 times:

Quoting WDBRR (Reply 12):
They have a huge feed of traffic
there that would fill up the China flight.

Apparently the powers that be dont agree with you. However, what was the official reason why DL didnt get the coveted China routes? Was it because of the supposed lack of demand for China from ATL?


User currently offlineIncitatus From Brazil, joined Feb 2005, 4000 posts, RR: 13
Reply 14, posted (9 years 4 months 2 weeks 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 5077 times:

Quoting WDBRR (Reply 12):
They have a huge feed of traffic
there that would fill up the China flight.

Maybe but the China routes were a competitive award: Two spots for three carriers. Look at the relative position of Atlanta in US. Most traffic would have to fly back to Atlanta then on to China. If Atlanta was in Idaho, one of the rights would have gone to Delta.


User currently offlineAAFLT1871 From United States of America, joined Dec 2004, 2333 posts, RR: 10
Reply 15, posted (9 years 4 months 2 weeks 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 4949 times:

Quoting TinPusher007 (Reply 9):
Um DL does operate 8 777-232ER's with plenty of range to operate JFK-PEK/PVG

The problem with that is it would take 3 777's to run the route daily, DL simply does not have any laying around to do such a route without taking 3 of their 8 off of other profitable routes!!!.

Quoting WDBRR (Reply 12):
Delta has the largest hub in the world in ATL

Serious Question

Is that true? I know they get the most passengers, while ORD has total movements, but AirTran is also based there in ATL as well taking account for some of the passenger totals, I always thought AA in DFW was the largest hub with little to no competition from others in DFW.



Where did everybody go?
User currently offlinePaulinbna From United States of America, joined Feb 2003, 1114 posts, RR: 5
Reply 16, posted (9 years 4 months 2 weeks 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 4935 times:
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Quoting AAFLT1871 (Reply 15):
Is that true? I know they get the most passengers, while ORD has total movements, but AirTran is also based there in ATL as well taking account for some of the passenger totals, I always thought AA in DFW was the largest hub with little to no competition from others in DFW.

I think (if I am wrong some one please correct me) when DL closed DFW hub and moved everything back to ATL they became the largest hub in the world.



Canon 50D user; 100-400 MM L IS 10-22 MM, 60MM Macro
User currently offlineDeltaMIA From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 1672 posts, RR: 17
Reply 17, posted (9 years 4 months 2 weeks 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 4934 times:

Quoting Bobnwa (Reply 5):
Maybe DCA, IAD, BWI,PHL,BOS, but the rest, no. It would be faster to head west for a connection!

That is a little far fetched. In some of those cities there is almost no options other than DL. Such as MLB where DL is the ONLY airline. Other cities DL is by far the dominant airline and thus have more frequent fliers and business fliers. A flight RDU-JFK, GSO-JFK, or SAV-JFK would be at best 30 minutes longer than taking UA, NW, AA and that would be assuming it would be advantageous to take one of their limited offerings in those cities. Same holds true for much of those JFK destinations.

However DL did not want JFK they wanted it to be ATL where there is a even a larger feed.



It's a big building with patients, but that's not important right now.
User currently offlineJumbojet From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 1159 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (9 years 4 months 2 weeks 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 4926 times:

The question remains the same:

Its obvious DL has a rather large network from JFK to European countries, so it just doesnt make sense why they either:

A) Don't apply for Asian routes from JFK, or do and,

B) Are denied these routes as posted above.

Whatever the case, I am sure they had a plan to aquire more 777's if they were to have been accepted as one of the carriers of choice.

Also, how do they determine that there arent enough asians or other travelers in the southeast to fill the ATL to China market?


User currently offlineSHUPirate1 From United States of America, joined Sep 2003, 3670 posts, RR: 17
Reply 19, posted (9 years 4 months 2 weeks 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 4927 times:

Paulinbna-I'm almost certain that Delta's Atlanta hub had been the largest in the world, in terms of movements, for quite some time before their Dallas-Fort Worth pull-down.


Burma's constitutional referendum options: A. Yes, B. Go to Insein Prison!
User currently offlineSHUPirate1 From United States of America, joined Sep 2003, 3670 posts, RR: 17
Reply 20, posted (9 years 4 months 2 weeks 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 4924 times:

Jumbojet-According to Delta's own website, as of 12/30/04, in addition to their eight Triple-Sevens already in active service, Delta had 5 firm orders, 20 options, and 5 additional rolling options. However, somebody else would be able to tell me when these delivery slots are, because I have no idea.


Burma's constitutional referendum options: A. Yes, B. Go to Insein Prison!
User currently offlineMariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 24997 posts, RR: 85
Reply 21, posted (9 years 4 months 2 weeks 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 4913 times:
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Delta has over $20 billion in debt, has said it won't be able to pay its bill this year, will report a loss even higher than last year's $5 billion, and is tottering on the edge of bankruptcy.

Perhaps they should be setting their house in order before they start buying new aircraft and planning routes to China.

cheers

mariner

[Edited 2005-03-12 09:38:59]


aeternum nauta
User currently offlineDeltaMIA From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 1672 posts, RR: 17
Reply 22, posted (9 years 4 months 2 weeks 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 4903 times:

Quoting SHUPirate1 (Reply 20):
However, somebody else would be able to tell me when these delivery slots are, because I have no idea.

The next 777 (Ship 7009) is scheduled for delivery 01/31/08. All other 777's scheduled prior to that date have been deferred or sold to other carriers.

The next DL delivery is a 738 (Ship 3772) scheduled to arrive 07/31/06. One of 48 firm orders for the 738 which will be delivered 2 a month for the rest of 2006 and then 3 month in 2007 and on.

There are also several options for the 764 and a couple for 763ER in 2006-2008.



It's a big building with patients, but that's not important right now.
User currently offlineSESGDL From United States of America, joined Jan 2001, 3466 posts, RR: 10
Reply 23, posted (9 years 4 months 2 weeks 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 4819 times:

Quoting AAFLT1871 (Reply 15):
Is that true? I know they get the most passengers, while ORD has total movements, but AirTran is also based there in ATL as well taking account for some of the passenger totals, I always thought AA in DFW was the largest hub with little to no competition from others in DFW.

DL's hub at ATL has been the largest since the 1980s.

Quoting Jumbojet (Reply 10):
Why would none be awarded to them? After all, Delta has more international flights out of JFK then they do ATL. Apparently, Delta has been denied multiple times routes to China. Why is it, that China routes are some of the most profitable out there?

DL serves FAR more international destinations from ATL than JFK.

Quoting AAFLT1871 (Reply 15):
The problem with that is it would take 3 777's to run the route daily, DL simply does not have any laying around to do such a route without taking 3 of their 8 off of other profitable routes!!!.

Why do you think DL applied for ATL-PEK in the first place, just to see if they had a chance?!? DL would have relocated 767s to the 777 routes to Europe and would've used the 777 on ATL-PEK.

Jeremy


User currently offlineJumbojet From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 1159 posts, RR: 0
Reply 24, posted (9 years 4 months 2 weeks 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 4788 times:

Quoting SESGDL (Reply 23):
DL serves FAR more international destinations from ATL than JFK.

According to Delta's timetable, the most flights to European countries originate from JFK.


25 AAFLT1871 : How do they define largest hub? Total daily # of flights, # of gates. Nope ORD retains that title!!
26 DAL767400ER : Not true. From JFK, DL offers 15 daily n/s flights to 14 destinations, plus continuing service to BOM and soon MAA. Other than transatlantic, from JF
27 Jumbojet : That's because there are 2 daily flights from ATL to CDG not to mention the two daily flights from ATL to FRA. Exluding Carribean and the americas, D
28 SESGDL : Jumbojet, WRONG. From ATL: SNN x1 DUB x1 MAN x1 LGW x3 CDG x2 AMS x1 BRU x1 MAD x1 BCN x1 FCO x1 MXP x1 ZRH x1 STR x1 FRA x2 MUC x1 SVO x1 (Starts soo
29 MAH4546 : If you look at current operations, however, JFK and ATL are even, with 13 each. As stated, JFK-TXL and ATL-SVO have not started yet, while ATL-BCN is
30 B4real : SESGDL> For the winter, DL flight 90 goes JFK-BCN-MAD, so your count should be 14 destinations, 14 flights.
31 Avek00 : "Also, how do they determine that there arent enough asians or other travelers in the southeast to fill the ATL to China market?" By examining the cur
32 Jumbojet : Fine, then operateAsia from JFK. as mentioned above, they have an extensive International network from JFK. In any case, it seems to be then that DL
33 DAL767400ER : They will. As has been stated, ATL-SVO and JFK-TXL will start this summer, and to South America DL still has their plans for ATL-GIG. Europe-wise, an
34 Jumbojet : Hopefully these new destinations will aide delta financially in staying clear of filing for bankruptcy. It's to good an airline, IMO anyway, for this
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