B747-437B From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Posted (8 years 3 months 1 week 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 4106 times:
Air India will introduce service between Bangkok and Hong Kong this summer with the introduction of 3 weekly direct services between Mumbai and Hong Kong via Bangkok.
These services will be in addition to Air India's already announced increase to daily non-stop services between Delhi and Hong Kong, plus increased services between Delhi and Bangkok continuing to Shanghai, increased services between Delhi and Hong Kong continuing to Osaka and increased services between Mumbai and Bangkok.
Air India will now serve Bangkok nonstop from Mumbai, Delhi, Hong Kong, Shanghai and Tokyo for a total of 18 weekly services and will serve Hong Kong nonstop from Delhi, Osaka and Bangkok for a total of 16 weekly services.
The new services will commence in the first week of May 2005 using Airbus 310 aircraft.
Mrniji From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 1, posted (8 years 3 months 1 week 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 4079 times:
Nice that finally SE Asia is going tb linked nonstop from BOM, too.. Can pax to PVG transit in BKK rather than taking 348 and enduring two stops?
Sean, any idea why they did not use the 74D, which will have spae capacity after the termination of AI165 (74D BOM-DEL-FRA) in favor of the 777 and 74E, respectively? Will the old ladies be used for more services to NRT?
Any idea when SIN will be served from BOM nonstop?
Jaysit From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 3, posted (8 years 3 months 1 week 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 3876 times:
With Cathay and Thai offering daily non-stop services to Bankgok on 773s and A330s who would want to fly AI's rickety A310s? The non-stop service is probably welcome given the volume of traffic to Bangkok, but woe be those who are stuck with having to take a flight via Delhi, and an extra 3.5 hours to what is basically slightly under a 4 hour flight (been there, done that in my poor student days !).
Recently a group of clients were to fly to Mumbai and then on to Bangkok for 2 strategy meetings. The travel services group originally had them on AI, but that was nixed because it was so much more convenient to fly LH to BOM and then Thai on to BKK.
B747-437B From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 4, posted (8 years 3 months 1 week 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 3864 times:
AI is doing this primarily to lock up their allocations under the India-Thailand bilateral before 9W/S2/IC can get their hands on them.
The BKK-HKG service is a smart idea however since it allows connectivity from the TG codeshared destinations of BLR and MAA to HKG over a BKK connection. Plus, there is sufficient traffic (albeit low yield) on that corridor that AI's daytime flights will draw enough 5th freedom traffic to fill the plane.
It also completes the missing leg on the system that allows you to fly between pretty much any major Asian city pair on Indian carriers using 5th freedoms with IC's BKK-SIN flight and AI's BKK-PVG, BKK-NRT, BKK-HKG, SIN-KUL, SIN-JKT and HKG-KIX.
Jasepl From India, joined Jul 2004, 3582 posts, RR: 44 Reply 5, posted (8 years 3 months 1 week 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 3843 times:
Quoting B747-437B (Reply 4): It also completes the missing leg on the system that allows you to fly between pretty much any major Asian city pair on Indian carriers using 5th freedoms with IC's BKK-SIN flight and AI's BKK-PVG, BKK-NRT, BKK-HKG, SIN-KUL, SIN-JKT and HKG-KIX.
Nice. Still, the fact remains that you can't go from AI's primary (and only) hub to any city east of Calcutta without having to stop somwehere.
There are no non-stops from Bombay to any of AI's eastern destinations (BKK, CGK, HKG, KIX, KUL, NRT, PVG or SIN), with Bangkok soon becoming the sole exception.
Mrniji From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 6, posted (8 years 3 months 1 week 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 3783 times:
Quoting Jaysit (Reply 3): Recently a group of clients were to fly to Mumbai and then on to Bangkok for 2 strategy meetings. The travel services group originally had them on AI, but that was nixed because it was so much more convenient to fly LH to BOM and then Thai on to BKK.
This is the big problem.. abroad, you often have to specially request agents to book on AI, since their managed schedule - everyting that goes beyond point to point - is mostly the most inconvenient. I wonder when they put some experts in the management and kick the IAS Babus
Quoting B747-437B (Reply 4): AI is doing this primarily to lock up their allocations under the India-Thailand bilateral before 9W/S2/IC can get their hands on them.
It is always a surprise to read this in the context of IC - good you mention this.. I understand this strategy, but this f----g IC needs to me merged with AI.. them, startingto compete with AI is damn, dumb and every other word that does not come to my mind at the mom.. This by the way shows the good side of competition - AI doing quick actions before 9W and S2 and yackity IC come. I was never sure whether a competitive framework was good for India, but in India, competition and privatization seem to be the key!
Behramjee From Canada, joined Aug 2003, 4478 posts, RR: 43 Reply 8, posted (8 years 3 months 1 week 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 3697 times:
Sean, for AI to fly daily DEL-HKG + 3 weekly BOM-HKG via BKK making HKG a 10 weekly service from India, are their any indications that the bilateral treaty between India and Hong Kong have been changed to allow this increase in frequency.
The reason for me asking is because CX are still complaining and whining about not getting more flight frequencies due to this bilateral agreement which only permits them to fly 4 weekly BOM and 4 weekly DEL services which they want to make daily each plus fly to BLR and MAA. Feedback from you on this matter shall be appreciated...thank you
Mrniji From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 9, posted (8 years 3 months 1 week 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 3675 times:
Quoting Behramjee (Reply 8): The reason for me asking is because CX are still complaining and whining
Following this, isn't CX one of the very few careers having 5th pax right India - DXB? This is a quite big commitment from India, as they won't allow theor own privates to serve that route...
Behram, there was sth in the news about a new bilateral... you could be right
Shawnnyc From United States of America, joined Mar 2005, 241 posts, RR: 0 Reply 10, posted (8 years 3 months 1 week 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 3645 times:
Quoting Behramjee (Reply 8): , for AI to fly daily DEL-HKG + 3 weekly BOM-HKG via BKK making HKG a 10 weekly service from India, are their any indications that the bilateral treaty between India and Hong Kong have been changed to allow this increase in frequency.
My understanding is that the bilateral is a combination of frequency and seats. Since CX flies to India with bigger planes, AI gets more frequencies. As far as CX and complaining....I have no sympathy. CX basically wants more flights to India to take Indian passengers to the US and Canada (not for O&D pass), but the HK gov won't grant Indian carriers the right to pick up passengers in HK and take them to the North Am. You can criticize India all you want, but the Indian gov has been very fair - in markets where the O&D market is satisfied, more frequencies will only be granted if Indian carriers are allowed to transport passengers to the final destination (ie. US, Canada, Oz etc). Just my 2 cents worth.
Behramjee From Canada, joined Aug 2003, 4478 posts, RR: 43 Reply 11, posted (8 years 3 months 1 week 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 3622 times:
Quoting Shawnnyc (Reply 10): but the HK gov won't grant Indian carriers the right to pick up passengers in HK and take them to the North Am.
According to a senior CX executive who has worked for the airline since 1970, he told me that CX and HKG Govt agreed to let Air India since last summer fly with 5th freedom pax on HKG-US West Coast (LAX/SFO) routes in exchange for Indian Govt allowing it to serve BLR and increase BOM and DEL frequencies. Is this information accurate?
Also Shawnnyc, it isnt CXs fault that AI only caters to O&D pax. AI can if it wants have a good hub and spoke system from BOM and DEL enabling HKG originating pax to fly to EU, UK and the Middle East via one of these AI hubs but it doesnt. Look at what EK does from HKG and CX from DXB respectively...surely their main traffic volume isnt O&D between the 2 cities!!!
Mrniji From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 12, posted (8 years 3 months 1 week 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 3581 times:
Quoting Behramjee (Reply 11): AI can if it wants have a good hub and spoke system from BOM and DEL enabling HKG originating pax to fly to EU, UK and the Middle East via one of these AI hubs but it doesnt.
I agree. AI needs to exchange its management and put real managers with knowledge of aviation, rather than these IAS officials who lack any knowledge of how to operate an airline. Being strategically so well located, AI could cater so maaaaaany 6th Generation Passengers.. but for that, we need to talk about airports, too...................................
B747-437B From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 13, posted (8 years 3 months 1 week 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 3569 times:
Quoting Behramjee (Reply 8): Sean, for AI to fly daily DEL-HKG + 3 weekly BOM-HKG via BKK making HKG a 10 weekly service from India, are their any indications that the bilateral treaty between India and Hong Kong have been changed to allow this increase in frequency. According to a senior CX executive who has worked for the airline since 1970, he told me that CX and HKG Govt agreed to let Air India since last summer fly with 5th freedom pax on HKG-US West Coast (LAX/SFO) routes in exchange for Indian Govt allowing it to serve BLR and increase BOM and DEL frequencies. Is this information accurate?
Like you, I only have second-hand information about the issue but unlike you I prefer not to comment or speculate until I have specific knowledge.
COEWR787 From United States of America, joined Mar 2005, 306 posts, RR: 4 Reply 14, posted (8 years 3 months 1 week 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 3467 times:
Quoting Mrniji (Reply 12): I agree. AI needs to exchange its management and put real managers with knowledge of aviation, rather than these IAS officials who lack any knowledge of how to operate an airline. Being strategically so well located, AI could cater so maaaaaany 6th Generation Passengers.. but for that, we need to talk about airports, too...................................
Absolutely agree. AI's inability to exploit 6th freedom opportunities over the decades while SQ and TG built themselves exploiting 6th freedom opportunities on almost the same routes that AI could have exploited is disappointing to say the least.
And yes improving the hub airports so that they are a tad this side of 1970's quality would help a lot to. Aftrerall if one is doing 6th freedom through DEL and BOM essentially those airports have to start looking like and become as convenient as BKK or SIN.
B747-437B From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 18, posted (8 years 3 months 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 3254 times:
Quoting Behramjee (Reply 8): Sean, for AI to fly daily DEL-HKG + 3 weekly BOM-HKG via BKK making HKG a 10 weekly service from India, are their any indications that the bilateral treaty between India and Hong Kong have been changed to allow this increase in frequency
I verified this and my research showed me that the current bilateral permits the Indian side 4 weekly frequencies with ANY aircraft type, plus 1250 additional seats, plus 1 additional frequency with ANY aircraft type OR 2 additional frequencies of an aircraft type with <220 seats.
CXoneWorld From Australia, joined Aug 2004, 311 posts, RR: 0 Reply 19, posted (8 years 3 months 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 3086 times:
Quoting B747-437B (Reply 18): I verified this and my research showed me that the current bilateral permits the Indian side 4 weekly frequencies with ANY aircraft type, plus 1250 additional seats, plus 1 additional frequency with ANY aircraft type OR 2 additional frequencies of an aircraft type with <220 seats.
Hmm... I really don't want to look clumsy.
But could you please kindly elaborate how the numbers add up there? I am a bit confused really...
B747-437B From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 20, posted (8 years 3 months 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 3063 times:
Quoting CXoneWorld (Reply 19): could you please kindly elaborate how the numbers add up there?
The allocation is 4 weekly + 1250 seats + 1 additional frequency with ANY aircraft type OR 2 additional frequencies of an aircraft type with <220 seats
First 4 flights count towards the 4 weekly base allocation. Hence 4 of the DEL-HKG A310 flights are counted towards that limit.
The next 1250 seats count towards the 1250 seat limit. The A310 seats between 210-220 pax, hence 5 of these frequencies (3x DEL-HKG, 2x BOM-BKK-HKG) count towards that limit.
The remaining BOM-BKK-HKG service comes under the 1 additional frequency permitted.
B747-437B From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 21, posted (8 years 2 months 3 weeks 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 2830 times:
I stand corrected vis-a-vis the above information. The 3x DEL-HKG and all 3x BOM-BKK-HKG count towards the 1250 seat limit, leaving 2x additional weekly A310 frequencies available for India to utilize in the market (and there are plans to do this in the mid-summer with extensions to ICN).
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