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Question About Song JFK-SEA/SFO/LAX  
User currently offlineTWA902fly From United States of America, joined Dec 1999, 3125 posts, RR: 4
Posted (9 years 5 months 3 weeks 18 hours ago) and read 4574 times:

Is song replacing Delta on the JFK-SEA/SFO/LAX routes or flying in addition to Delta? Seems like Delta would lose a lot of high-paying customers on the JFK-California routes... or am i wrong?

TWA902


life wasn't worth the balance, or the crumpled paper it was written on
53 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently onlineAeroWesty From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 20552 posts, RR: 62
Reply 1, posted (9 years 5 months 3 weeks 17 hours ago) and read 4561 times:

According to this thread:

http://www.airliners.net/discussions...general_aviation/read.main/1926236

... it will be in addition to. Refer especially to Reply #15 by Alb222 that details the upcoming services, and that flights connecting to international services will still be flown by Delta mainline.

Cheers.



International Homo of Mystery
User currently offlineDeltaMIA From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 1672 posts, RR: 17
Reply 2, posted (9 years 5 months 3 weeks 17 hours ago) and read 4548 times:

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 1):
Refer especially to Reply #15 by Alb222 that details the upcoming services, and that flights connecting to international services will still be flown by Delta mainline.

Its wrong. All flights will be taken over by Song. Throughout the transition there will be both mainline and Song flights operating on a single route, but JFK-LAX will be all Song on 06/18, JFK-SFO will be all Song on 09/01 and JFK-SEA will be all Song on 09/02.

Quoting TWA902fly (Thread starter):
Seems like Delta would lose a lot of high-paying customers on the JFK-California routes... or am i wrong?

They probably will, but will ultimately gain more customers. Those are highly competitive routes and DL didn't like its position as was in the markets. They feel they can generate more revenue by offering Song service over mainline service.



It's a big building with patients, but that's not important right now.
User currently onlineAeroWesty From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 20552 posts, RR: 62
Reply 3, posted (9 years 5 months 3 weeks 17 hours ago) and read 4538 times:

Quoting DeltaMIA (Reply 2):
Its wrong. All flights will be taken over by Song.

Wow, good to know. Thanks for updating that. I read through the entire thread and never saw anyone correct it.

Cheers.



International Homo of Mystery
User currently offlinePadcrasher From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 4, posted (9 years 5 months 3 weeks 11 hours ago) and read 4489 times:

Delta does not have alot of high paying premium flyers on these routes. In fact Delta yields the lowest among the majors flying between NYC and the West coast. What premium there is still left is divided among AA and UA and even this yield has been shot to hell.

User currently offlineSESGDL From United States of America, joined Jan 2001, 3474 posts, RR: 10
Reply 5, posted (9 years 5 months 3 weeks 11 hours ago) and read 4489 times:

Quoting Padcrasher (Reply 4):
Delta does not have alot of high paying premium flyers on these routes. In fact Delta yields the lowest among the majors flying between NYC and the West coast. What premium there is still left is divided among AA and UA and even this yield has been shot to hell.

Problem with NYC-LAX is that the yields are much lower than they used to be. With B6 in the market, and now Song, yields are likely to decrease even more. DL obviously cares more about revenue than high premium paying customers. Many business travellers have moved to flying LCCs anyway, it's really pointless to pay the hgihest fare when a cheaper one exists.

Jeremy


User currently offlinePadcrasher From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 6, posted (9 years 5 months 3 weeks 11 hours ago) and read 4469 times:

I think the big loser in all this is American. They are fighting UA with their "P.S" service for the high yielding passenger up front. UA arguably has a better premium product here. And they are trying to compete with Song that has better coach product. I'm hoping they pull some of their 11 frequencies to bring up the yields.

User currently offlineRoseFlyer From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 9611 posts, RR: 52
Reply 7, posted (9 years 5 months 3 weeks 10 hours ago) and read 4420 times:

The JFK-SFO/LAX route is interesting now. You have UA going for all premium passengers by not even offering regular economy and only having Economy Plus on their P.S. service, and then you have Song going for all the cheap travelers. AA is somewhere in between trying to serve both markets evenly and kind of failing to offer what each class of passengers want. HP is on the route, but doesn't have much frequency and B6 flies to secondary airports.

Overall there is one place where DL will lose. A person from LAX, SFO or SEA connecting in JFK to an international flight in Business class won't be happy spending the first 5-6 hours of their journey in economy (even if it has been Songized). These people may want to take their business to UA, NW, CO or AA out of LAX and go through a different hub, or try to transfer in ATL rather then JFK. I don't know how much of a market this is, but DL is certainly losing it. I am curious to see who does the best, but have a suspicion that UA might pull out ahead with high frequency, and better service even though it is on 757s since New York to LA and SFO does have a lot of premium travelers since it is a rather long flight.



If you have never designed an airplane part before, let the real designers do the work!
User currently offlineAlb222 From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 222 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (9 years 5 months 3 weeks 10 hours ago) and read 4410 times:

The original model was to retain 1 DL mainline between JFK-LAX/SFO for Int'l connections. The model was changed to all Song. The reason had to do with the fare issue. Song and mainline offer different things in their coach product, so how is the same fare going to work.

User currently offlinePadcrasher From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 9, posted (9 years 5 months 3 weeks 10 hours ago) and read 4410 times:

The fare will either be broken in JFK where it will be a Song fare or it will be a International through fare. In this case the Intl ticket is governed by the Intl fare rules.


DL at JFK has alot of unique routes. IST, ATH, NCE, BCN, VCE. Passengers in LAX are looking for a non-stop of course but in absence of this they really do not mind a Song flight to JFK. It's almost an afterthought if they can get the upgrade over the Atlantic. Upgrades are hard to come by to Europe out of LAX.


User currently offlineTWA902fly From United States of America, joined Dec 1999, 3125 posts, RR: 4
Reply 10, posted (9 years 5 months 3 weeks 8 hours ago) and read 4343 times:

Quoting Alb222 (Reply 8):
The original model was to retain 1 DL mainline between JFK-LAX/SFO for Int'l connections. The model was changed to all Song. The reason had to do with the fare issue. Song and mainline offer different things in their coach product, so how is the same fare going to work.

I think that could still possibly work, as many of the 1x daily JFK flights are unreasonably expensive. the ORD-JFK CRJ has never sold under $300, because they are saving those seats for people connecting to Europe. In the winter you can get ORD-JFK-CDG-JFK-ORD for $500 or so... and if you were to try to book ORD-JFK-ORD seperately it would cost you $300 or so... disproportionally expensive. I am thinking if they had a 1x daily 762 or 752 on LAX-JFK with the same pricing structure.... most people would avoid that flight unless they were flying to Europe anyways... SFO and SEA same thing. Friends of mine have been users of the flight in the past, flying SVO-JFK-SFO and SEA-JFK-SVO.

TWA902



life wasn't worth the balance, or the crumpled paper it was written on
User currently offlineRoseFlyer From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 9611 posts, RR: 52
Reply 11, posted (9 years 5 months 3 weeks 8 hours ago) and read 4343 times:

Padcrasher, I don't know about them not caring. I know that there are some top executives in my family that live in SEA, and they are actively avoid connecting through IAD with UA because the domestic first class isn't good enough let alone economy. They prefer a short hop on Star to YVR, SFO, DEN or somewhere else to get where they want to go in Europe. Of course they fly in internantional first almost exclusively, so they wouldn't fly DL anyway, but still I am sure that some people would actively avoid DL if they have to take Song for 1/3 of their trip. If they want to stay with Skyteam to more obscure destinations, then they might just take AF to CDG nonstop and connect from there, or switch carriers. It takes significantly longer connecting through the east coast anyway since it is not close to the normal routes from the west. So the option longer flying times and lower service is not appealing. But I will admit that not everyone considers this as a factor, but you have to remember that most business travelers traveling in the upper cabins are pretty smart and realize this stuff, otherwise they wouldn't be in the position to be flying up there.


If you have never designed an airplane part before, let the real designers do the work!
User currently offlineTWA902fly From United States of America, joined Dec 1999, 3125 posts, RR: 4
Reply 12, posted (9 years 5 months 3 weeks 7 hours ago) and read 4333 times:

Quoting RoseFlyer (Reply 11):
They prefer a short hop on Star to YVR, SFO, DEN or somewhere else to get where they want to go in Europe.

and Star through DEN can get them all over Europe as long as they connect again in FRA

Also- you might try talking to them, as UA has the same first class flying to DEN SFO or IAD... flights to IAD are scheduled at 4:55 flying time, DEN 2:30, SFO 2:10.. which means the IAD flight adds 2-3 extra hours, not bad if youre already sitting there for 2... as for the comment about YVR... i think this family doesnt do good logic thinking, they cant tolerate the first class to IAD, but even the short hop to YVR on a DHC-8-300 prop seems like something they wouldnt even consider. I wish i was rich enough to not want to fly a certain first class.

TWA902



life wasn't worth the balance, or the crumpled paper it was written on
User currently offlineLaxintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 25166 posts, RR: 48
Reply 13, posted (9 years 5 months 3 weeks 7 hours ago) and read 4308 times:

Indeed I feel Delta is making a mistake dropping mainline service on these transcon routes. They will loose not just some premium O&D traffic between the cities, however more importantly those premium passengers looking to fly on DL's extensive Atlantic network beyond JFK.

It is however very hard mixing a LCC product and mainline on the same routes. This is one thing UA paid very close attention to with its TED product. Mixing mainline and LCC not only skews fare buckets, but also can create confusion amongst consumers experiencing a mixed product presentations. United used a revenue model to choose potential mainline routes that could be converted to LCC. Under their model these transcons (especially LAX & SFO) would never qualify due to their nature of having a significant amount of premium business traffic.

Certainly this move by Delta will help increase UA and AA's transcon premium traffic.



From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
User currently offlineDeltaMIA From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 1672 posts, RR: 17
Reply 14, posted (9 years 5 months 3 weeks 7 hours ago) and read 4284 times:

Quoting Alb222 (Reply 8):
The original model was to retain 1 DL mainline between JFK-LAX/SFO for Int'l connections

Actually from the get go it was going to be all Song. Somehow it got circulated that there would be mainline flights along side the Song flights because they had yet to be pulled from the computer system. That caused a little bit of confusion.

Quoting RoseFlyer (Reply 7):

Overall there is one place where DL will lose. A person from LAX, SFO or SEA connecting in JFK to an international flight in Business class won't be happy spending the first 5-6 hours of their journey in economy (even if it has been Songized).



Quoting Padcrasher (Reply 9):
DL at JFK has a lot of unique routes. IST, ATH, NCE, BCN, VCE. Passengers in LAX are looking for a non-stop of course but in absence of this they really do not mind a Song flight to JFK. It's almost an afterthought if they can get the upgrade over the Atlantic.

Delta interlines with all carriers that provide a premium product LAX/SFO/SEA-JFK. If someone is really going to fly full fare business to VCE then they can have a single etkt for travel LAX UA JFK DL VCE. The LAXJFK portion is a small percentage of the ticket DL is willing to forgo that in their effort to increase revenue with point to point traffic. However most travelers will fly Song just to keep their travel within the DL system.



It's a big building with patients, but that's not important right now.
User currently offlineB4real From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 2637 posts, RR: 5
Reply 15, posted (9 years 5 months 3 weeks 6 hours ago) and read 4257 times:

Quoting Alb222 (Reply 8):
The reason had to do with the fare issue. Song and mainline offer different things in their coach product, so how is the same fare going to work

The above is incorrect. Take the following example:

Fares: LAX-JFK on song = on Oct 10 one way was $174.20 at fare code T.

Then I clicked up LAX-CVG-JFK on DL mainline and the fare, fee, and taxes total was $179.90 at fare code T.

Song and DL have the same fare structure. The difference between these two is that there is a segment fee and a landing fee @ CVG. The fare is the same, as long as you are flying a married route. As you are not flying LAX-Cincinnati-JFK, you are flying LAX-JFK, the fare does not matter how you get there, CVG, ATL, SLC.... But the inventory of said fares do matter.

DL needs to keep the same fare basis for their routes, regardless of Song or DL operating it - as they are the same airline (long story..). Song also allocates the inventory of fare code T differently (more T's available) than DL mainline, due to the intent of a lower CSM. Even with Simplifares this is true.



B4REAL, spelled like it sounds
User currently offlineRoseFlyer From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 9611 posts, RR: 52
Reply 16, posted (9 years 5 months 3 weeks 6 hours ago) and read 4228 times:

TWA902, I didn't say they were all that logical, but they hate flying long domestic flights, and then transferring international, when they could get the international standards of service and comfort for the majority of the flight. I am sure there are many other business travelers that will avoid Song across the country. Business travelers might interline or deal with a long economy flight, or they may be inclined to do a one stop through Europe since all the big European carriers fly to LAX and fly far more places in Europe and Asia then DL ever will.

Trasitioning to Song is a risk, and I am sure that DL management has examined the possible ramifications carefully and feel that the loss of premium cabins will be insignificant since a lot of traffic can connect through ATL to Europe since most of the destinations that command a lot of premium traffic are served from both ATL and JFK since JFK keeps transitioning to a lower cost airport.



If you have never designed an airplane part before, let the real designers do the work!
User currently offlineTWA902fly From United States of America, joined Dec 1999, 3125 posts, RR: 4
Reply 17, posted (9 years 5 months 3 weeks 5 hours ago) and read 4216 times:

Quoting RoseFlyer (Reply 16):
am sure there are many other business travelers that will avoid Song across the country.

I agree with you on that, i think DL is losing the top-notch business traveller on these routes, which seem to be the backbone of american air travel... i mean LAX-JFK is between the two biggest cities in america. however, the comment about that family was that they would actually avoid flying UA first class to IAD trans-con was the one i was talking about. really had nothign to do with this thread i guess. if they dont fly the UA A320/A319 on SEA-IAD, i doubt they'd go with DL's mainline 757 to JFK, or is it 738 these days?

TWA902



life wasn't worth the balance, or the crumpled paper it was written on
User currently offlineOzarkD9S From United States of America, joined Oct 2001, 5073 posts, RR: 21
Reply 18, posted (9 years 5 months 3 weeks 4 hours ago) and read 4160 times:

Why don't they just SONG the whole mainline domestic system, DL the international and Connect the rest?

It's where they're headed anyway....



Next Up: STL-LGA-RIC-ATL-STL
User currently offlineAlb222 From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 222 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (9 years 5 months 3 weeks 3 hours ago) and read 4124 times:

Quoting B4real (Reply 15):
The above is incorrect. Take the following example:

You missed the point............it had not to do with charging the same fare on the route..............it had to do with charging the same fare for two different products on the same route.

Quoting DeltaMIA (Reply 14):
Actually from the get go it was going to be all Song. Somehow it got circulated that there would be mainline flights along side the Song flights because they had yet to be pulled from the computer system. That caused a little bit of confusion.

The initial discussion was to keep one mainline ER from LAX continuing to FCO, however that was dropped when aircraft availibility became an issue.

We all have our sources.inhouse, rumor etc. Bottom line, it is all Song.


User currently offlineB4real From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 2637 posts, RR: 5
Reply 20, posted (9 years 5 months 3 weeks 1 hour ago) and read 4059 times:

Quoting Alb222 (Reply 19):
You missed the point............it had not to do with charging the same fare on the route..............it had to do with charging the same fare for two different products on the same route.

I disagree. I think you offer the two different products if it makes sense - for whatever reason. Somewhat like DL mainline running ATL-FLL and song running ATL-FLL - why for access to maintenance. That makes sense. Why run Delta Connection on a route and Delta mainline on the same route? Because it makes sense for reasons of frequency and demand. Why run the 738 in 2 class config ATL-SAV and ATL-GSO (for example) and then squeak in the 738 shuttle config to mix products? Must make sense for some reason. Just to keep GSO pax guessing, we'll also have DL connection on that route. Trust me, DL is not the best at product differentiation, though I think they are trying to do such on SFO/LAX-JFK.

I think it would make sense to have a mainline DL timed for Int'l connections @ JFK. DL thinks otherwise.



B4REAL, spelled like it sounds
User currently offlineDeltaMIA From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 1672 posts, RR: 17
Reply 21, posted (9 years 5 months 2 weeks 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 3957 times:

Quoting B4real (Reply 20):
I think it would make sense to have a mainline DL timed for Int'l connections @ JFK. DL thinks otherwise.

With 7 daily flights from LAX and 5 daily flights from SFO I don't think connections are an issue. The new flights from LAX arrive at 3:19pm, 4:19pm and 6:40pm. 597 seats to make international connections.



It's a big building with patients, but that's not important right now.
User currently offlineB4real From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 2637 posts, RR: 5
Reply 22, posted (9 years 5 months 2 weeks 6 days ago) and read 3842 times:

Quoting DeltaMIA (Reply 21):

With 7 daily flights from LAX and 5 daily flights from SFO I don't think connections are an issue. The new flights from LAX arrive at 3:19pm, 4:19pm and 6:40pm. 597 seats to make international connections.

Agreed, but they are song connections - back to the earlier topic of not being able to sell a premium seat LAX-JFK-SVO or LAX-JFK-IST or LAX-JFK-ATH or the other destinations served...



B4REAL, spelled like it sounds
User currently offlineN1120A From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 26444 posts, RR: 75
Reply 23, posted (9 years 5 months 2 weeks 6 days ago) and read 3812 times:

Quoting B4real (Reply 22):
Agreed, but they are song connections - back to the earlier topic of not being able to sell a premium seat LAX-JFK-SVO or LAX-JFK-IST or LAX-JFK-ATH or the other destinations served...

The thing is, DL is distantly behind UA and AA in premium traffic. Go beyond that and you have the European carriers that offer non-stops anyway. They simply cannot fill the premium cabins for those connections, so they traded off that possibility in order to compete for O&D and lower yield connections



Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
User currently offlineAlb222 From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 222 posts, RR: 0
Reply 24, posted (9 years 5 months 2 weeks 6 days ago) and read 3815 times:

Quoting B4real (Reply 22):
Agreed, but they are song connections - back to the earlier topic of not being able to sell a premium seat LAX-JFK-SVO or LAX-JFK-IST or LAX-JFK-ATH or the other destinations served...

I do agree that I think DL is erring in not providing a premium linkup for SFO/LAX/SEA passengers connecting in JFK, I would imagine that DL crunched the numbers as far as Int'l conections from those locales and found that the numbers did not warrant the mainline service. Route most via ATL or insome cases, CVG. Besides ATH and IST, what other points are not served from ATL n/s?


25 Gokmengs : Talking about unique destinations from JFK, I take the JFK-IST flight on DL very often and its full or almost full most of the time(Business especial
26 Travelin man : I don't think Delta is making a mistake, per se. If I am a premium Delta frequent flyer from LAX, and I want to go to Europe (to any of those "unique
27 SESGDL : Premium passengers are only a fraction of flyers anyway. For instance, DL 757s only have 22 first class seats, compared with 161 economy seats. The ma
28 Travelin man : There will always be a demand for premium service between the coasts, given the entertainment, high-tech, and financial industry crowds. I agree it i
29 B4real : Off the top of my head: VCE, NCE, (BCN and SVO until summer) on DL. Codeshares to PRG, CBN, TLV, and likely others.
30 DeltaMIA : Starting in the summer TXL. Also the direct flights to MAA and BOM. I think you mean CMN instead of CBN.
31 B4real : Yep! Thank,s DeltaMIA. Good note also on TXL.
32 Gokmengs : Guys again I would appreciate if anyone can post the loads on DL JFK-IST route? Thanks a lot.
33 Laxintl : While loads in themselves do not prove if a flight is profitable, here are the DL loads factors for IST-JFK for the last 4 available quarters. 4Q03 -
34 Post contains images Gokmengs : Thank you so much Laxintl, I take that flight very often( I wish tehy cahange the equipment once every while and I knew about the frequency adjustmen
35 DeltaMIA : There is no equipment to change it to. 777's won't ever find their way into IST as they are rarely sent to JFK as it is.
36 Gokmengs : Thats true DeltaMIA you rarely see those birds at JFK. Man but I would love to know the age of the 763ER's that they use for most of the transcon rou
37 Post contains links Padcrasher : Well this came out today. http://biz.yahoo.com/prnews/050315/nytu145_2.html And they just completed the MD-80 interiors not long ago. And the livery
38 Gokmengs : I don't know if I'm being selfish but(My destinations rarely if ever is on MD-80's) I wished they made the improvements in their larger equipment(767
39 Post contains links B4real : MD-80 fleet is NOT complete. Flew 2 birds on Sunday with old interiors. Heck yeah! I'm with you there. The press releases are not clear if the airlin
40 DAL767400ER : Definitely not. The new leather seats were announced not too long ago, and with DL's 120-strong fleet, it will still take them some months before all
41 DeltaMIA : The avg. age is 9.5 years. The first one being delivered in 06/90 and the most recent delivery being 08/01. The appearance is perception. DL never mo
42 B4real : Well said.
43 WindowSeat : . If you only knew the amount of business class travelers who have started flying jetBlue, you would not say that. Exactly, so why should DL think of
44 Gokmengs : I don't think thats too bad, but the outdated interior does give the old plane feeling to pax. I think the appearance is very very important in the w
45 Gokmengs : I think Song has a great chance of being highly profitable in a short time period, but the question is what happens to DL? If Song does great and DL
46 B4real : This is starting to happen to select Int'l destinations - NAS and AUA in particular. If it is successful, sure, I bet we'd see more.
47 Gokmengs : If that works maybe DL will focus on improving service and quality overall, because I believe there is more room to increase prices on International
48 BillElliott9 : I flew Song MCO - LAX on 4 March. Was able to snag an exit row seat and I thought it was one of the best flights I've ever had. Great service, great I
49 Post contains images B4real : Yes, 764 is a bit cramped in F. Seats 7E and 7F are the only good ones, they feel like BizE seats. Preaching to the choir... Me too, but that's a lon
50 BillElliott9 : I had reserved 7F (based on seatguru.com) but my flight was delayed and I was rebooked up on a different flight in 3F! Just seems strange to feel cram
51 B4real : I agree with you. It is truly an inferior product (seats other than 7E/7F). Seatguru says it best that they took a great plane and cramped the heck ou
52 DeltaMIA : Believe it or not, at the time DL was actually trying to make a consistent product. Half the planes were already delivered and PTV's weren't a big de
53 BillElliott9 : Good point.......I would like to clarify my previous statement to read "avoid DL's 7674"!
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