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Not Guilty Verdicts In Air India 182 Bombing  
User currently offlineWindowSeat From United States of America, joined Sep 2003, 1312 posts, RR: 57
Posted (9 years 7 months 1 week 5 days ago) and read 4767 times:

Judge Ian Bruce Josephson in Canada has just announced a not guilty verdict for the two men on trail for the fatal bombing of Air India 182 over the Atlantic in 1985 killing 329 people.

See the full story link:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/4353555.stm

Twenty years on, no real closure for families I guess. Apart from one suspect who admitted to his role and got 5 yrs, no one has been brought to justice for this crime.


I'm all in favour of keeping dangerous weapons out of the hands of fools. Let's start with keyboards.
54 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineB747-437B From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 1, posted (9 years 7 months 1 week 5 days ago) and read 4734 times:

Shocking.

Having followed the AI 182 case closely for the better part of two decades myself, including a number of days spent at the trial in Vancouver, I am stunned that Josephson could reach this verdict.

I really feel for the families right about now, as well as for the investigators and prosecutors who have given their careers to this case.

The only wish I have now is that this case serves as a wakeup call to reform CSIS and hold them accountable for the wiretap evidence that they destroyed.


User currently offlineJasepl From India, joined Jul 2004, 3582 posts, RR: 39
Reply 2, posted (9 years 7 months 1 week 5 days ago) and read 4703 times:

From the CBC: "Josephson said he simply did not believe the testimony of witnesses who linked the men to the two bombs. Calling them inconsistent, he said they surfaced too late to be credible, though he accepted the Crown's theory that there was a conspiracy to bring down Air India flights."

And here's an excerpt from his actual ruling:

"I began by describing the horrific nature of these cruel acts of terrorism, acts which cry out for justice. Justice is not achieved, however, if persons are convicted on anything less than the requisite standard of proof beyond a reasonable doubt. Despite what appear to have been the best and most earnest of efforts by the police and the Crown, the evidence has fallen markedly short of that standard."


Unexpected verdict, certainly. Perhaps even unacceptable and 'wrong'. But if the Justice's argument is valid, it can't be called unfair.

[Edited 2005-03-16 20:59:14]

User currently offlineCxh From Canada, joined Oct 2004, 146 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (9 years 7 months 1 week 5 days ago) and read 4692 times:

More details from the CBC: (see more information in the background links on the CBC page)

http://www.cbc.ca/story/canada/natio...03/16/air-india-advance050316.html

According to the Judge, the evidence against the two was mostly circumstantial. It should be noted the actual bomb maker got 10 years for the Narita bombing and 5 for this one (but will get paroled early). And the "mastermind" was killed in 1992.

But I agree, the lack of closure must be gut renching for the families and others involved.



I've seen the future, I can't afford it. - Martin Fry
User currently offlineGamps From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 469 posts, RR: 1
Reply 4, posted (9 years 7 months 1 week 5 days ago) and read 4623 times:

Did anyone really expect justice at Canada - a country which even today grants asylum to Sikh terrorists? This verdict will only increase movement of thousands of Khalistanis from India to Canada under the pretext that Indian govt kills Sikhs. And Canadian govt willingly buys it even though India is now ruled by a Sikh Prime Minister.

Wonder why they even bothered to spend all those millions on trial - should have kept aside for hosting the Khalistani terrorists and grant asylum to them. Anyway as one relative of a victim said "God will take care of these Khalistanis". I won't be surprised if Khalistan movement in Indian Punjab raises its head again now that Canada has cleared their leaders.


User currently offlineAseem From India, joined Feb 2005, 2046 posts, RR: 10
Reply 5, posted (9 years 7 months 1 week 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 4580 times:

They have conveniently put blame on of the accused who was slain by Indian police. What's the harm in blaming when he is already dead.
Even their own www.cbc.ca found the verdict shocking.
rgds
Aseem



ala re ala, VT-ALA ala
User currently offlineJaysit From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 6, posted (9 years 7 months 1 week 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 4522 times:

Did anyone really expect justice at Canada - a country which even today grants asylum to Sikh terrorists? This verdict will only increase movement of thousands of Khalistanis from India to Canada under the pretext that Indian govt kills Sikhs. And Canadian govt willingly buys it even though India is now ruled by a Sikh Prime Minister.

Give me a break.

Shocking and unpleasant as the verdict may be, the justice system in Canada has done its best under very difficult circumstances - lousy witnesses, and less than fully incriminating evidence.

Losing one's entire family in what was essentially a mass murder is horrific, but all one can hope from the wheels of justice is a fair trial, not a confirmed verdict.


User currently offlineB747-437B From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 7, posted (9 years 7 months 1 week 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 4473 times:

Quoting Jaysit (Reply 6):
the justice system in Canada has done its best under very difficult circumstances

Sorry Jay, but the system failed here and failed miserably.

If the system had run as prescribed, with all evidence being made available and all agencies acting with a common interest, it would have been a different story.

Notably :

a) Talwinder Singh Parmar was a Canadian citizen who founded the Babbar Khalsa, a terrorist group that was responsible for a number of atrocities in India during the 1980s. He was charged with multiple counts of murder in India in 1982, but the Canadian Government declined an extradition request in 1984.

b) Talwinder Singh Parmar was under round-the-clock surveillance by CSIS in the period leading up to the Air India 182 bombing. CSIS surveillance logs link him conclusively to an explosives test in British Columbia conducted by Inderjit Sigh Reyat mere weeks before the bombing. Yet CSIS failed to notify either the RCMP or the Indian High Commission that Parmar, a wanted terrorist, was engaging in such acts.

c) 150 different tapes of CSIS wiretap surveillance on Parmar and Malik were intentionally destroyed in 1988 for reasons best known to the agency. This information came to light from a whistleblower former CSIS agent in 2000.

d) In 1996, Inspector Graham Bass, the lead RCMP Investigator in the case penned a confidential memo (subsequently obtained by the National Post) where he accused CSIS of interfering with his investigation and destroying evidence.

The problem here appears to be that CSIS was caught with a number of their so-called "informants" and "agents" in the Sikh community having deep involvement in the plot while on CSIS payroll and rather than expose their own shortcomings and failure on that front they instead chose to destroy evidence to cover up.


User currently offlineAvek00 From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 4405 posts, RR: 19
Reply 8, posted (9 years 7 months 1 week 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 4449 times:

"The problem here appears to be that CSIS was caught with a number of their so-called "informants" and "agents" in the Sikh community having deep involvement in the plot while on CSIS payroll and rather than expose their own shortcomings and failure on that front they instead chose to destroy evidence to cover up."

It could be the case that Canada's national security interests require that the information on those tapes not be made public, whatever the cost to a particular trial. It's unfortunate, yes, but perhaps necessary for the greater good of the Canadian people.



Live life to the fullest.
User currently offlineJaysit From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 9, posted (9 years 7 months 1 week 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 4420 times:

c) 150 different tapes of CSIS wiretap surveillance on Parmar and Malik were intentionally destroyed in 1988 for reasons best known to the agency. This information came to light from a whistleblower former CSIS agent in 2000.

Well, thats just it.

I don't doubt that Parmar is guilty, but with the prosecution's best evidence completely destroyed, how could a Court issue a verdict of guilt?

However, you're correct that the Justice system (law enforcement agencies, etc) failed miserably. However, Courts are limited by what they have in front of them, not what they could have had. Thus, the Court's hands appear to have been tied based on what it believed to be inconclusive evidence, even though the prosecution tried its best.

This is very sad. The Indo-Canadian community must be devastated.


User currently offlineGamps From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 469 posts, RR: 1
Reply 10, posted (9 years 7 months 1 week 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 4414 times:

B747-437b,

Interesting observation on destruction of tapes. Are there many Khalistani types in the CSIS? Anyway this verdict is going to haunt Canada in general as the children of these terrorists are growing up not exactly as role models. Chinese, Vietnamese, Russian gangs are fast being replaced or already replaced by these Khalistani youth.

I bet today here at Fremont and San Jose Gurudwaras there will be sweets distributed and verdict celebrated!


User currently offlineWestWing From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 2134 posts, RR: 7
Reply 11, posted (9 years 7 months 1 week 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 4375 times:

I found this link to the full text of the judgement on CBC's AI Backgrounder Page.

[Edited 2005-03-16 23:15:09]


The best time to plant a tree is 40 years ago. The second best time is today.
User currently offlineJaysit From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 12, posted (9 years 7 months 1 week 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 4349 times:

I bet today here at Fremont and San Jose Gurudwaras there will be sweets distributed and verdict celebrated!

That is the stupidest thing said on here so far.
Numerous victims of the AI182 crash were Sikhs.
You're attributing the crimes of a few to the entire Sikh community and all Gurudwara leaders, which puts you somewhere in the same camp as the Congress(I) types who led a pogrom against Sikhs back in 1984 in the wake of Mrs. G's assasination.


User currently offlineAseem From India, joined Feb 2005, 2046 posts, RR: 10
Reply 13, posted (9 years 7 months 1 week 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 4327 times:

Cool down folks!! Not the happiest moment in Indian avaition history. crying 
rgds
Aseem



ala re ala, VT-ALA ala
User currently offlineGamps From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 469 posts, RR: 1
Reply 14, posted (9 years 7 months 1 week 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 4283 times:

Jaysit,

With all due respect I suggest you visit these Gurudwaras and see for yourself how these terrorists are glorified. Khalistani movement has become nothing but immigration attornies playground who take the gullible illegal immigrants for a ride by promising asylum. My concern is this ruling is only going to encourage these thugs.

**

Will Air India still plan on flying to Canada after this ruling? Especially considering Canadian govt does nothing to stop the Sikh terrorists entering under the guise of political asylum?


User currently offlineJaysit From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 15, posted (9 years 7 months 1 week 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 4266 times:

Khalistani movement has become nothing but immigration attornies playground who take the gullible illegal immigrants for a ride by promising asylum.

The Khalistani movement is dead in the water.
I'd love to see some hard statistics showing that any Western government is permitting Sikhs to claim refugee status based on their "Khalistani" status after 1995. I'm sure that some sleazy immigration attorneys will try anything, but what are their odds for success given that the Indian government does not discriminate against Sikhs, other than the brief disgraceful moment back in 1984?

And why should this affect AI's impending operations to YYZ?


User currently offlineJetlagged From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2005, 2565 posts, RR: 25
Reply 16, posted (9 years 7 months 1 week 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 4221 times:

So, Sikhs should be added to Muslims on the automatic terrorist suspect list?

Maybe the defendant was actually guilty. It has to be proved beyond a shadow of a doubt. Canadian justice did not fail, perhaps the prosecutors did.

However, jailing someone won't bring back the victims, nor make relatives feel better about their loss.

Sometimes in a democracy the guilty are acquitted. It's the price we pay for freedom. You can guarantee that those still suspected will be under even more scrutiny.

I can understand if you have Indian links that you would feel extremely strongly about this case. However that also means you would not in the best position to judge.



The glass isn't half empty, or half full, it's twice as big as it needs to be.
User currently offlineGamps From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 469 posts, RR: 1
Reply 17, posted (9 years 7 months 1 week 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 4137 times:

And why should this affect AI's impending operations to YYZ?

Because there are still tons of Khalistani elements in Canada who are still against Indian govt and Indian govt assets. There is a reason Indian Embassy and Consulates in Canada have one of the highest security cover given to any foreign Embassy/Consulates.

And as proved by mysterious disappearance of tapes, it is clear that Khalistani types have penetrated CSIS and other government apparatus in Canada. Imagine Air India planes handled by these Khalistanis and think what they can plant and do when they have full access to the plane.

Far fetched and doomsday scenario? Probably. But as seen from Kanishka bombing the hatred these guys have do not prevent them from killing their own people.

As far as political asylum claims by Sikhs, I just suggest you to look into any Punjabi weekly published in Canada and California. For the record India counts in top 5 countries whose citizens claim political asylum in Western Countries - some 12000 people last year.

From Reuters:

The largest group of asylum seekers in 2004 was from the Russian Federation (30,100), the majority of whom are Chechens; followed by asylum seekers from Serbia and Montenegro (22,300), many of them from Kosovo; China (19,700); Turkey (16,200) and India (11,900).

http://www.alertnet.org/thenews/news...6eb1e7ba80f68d3115e6e0b36494d6.htm
Not all 12000 are Sikhs ofcourse, but going by the advertisements by Immigration attornies promising asylum in Punjabi weeklies in North America I won't be surprised if majority of them are Punjabis.

Sikhs should be added to Muslims on the automatic terrorist suspect list?

When the prime suspect of Kanishka bombing (later killed by Indian forces) is projected as a matryr and honored on the walls of Gurudwara - and when whole community remains mute spectator for this, then there is a problem. You can see Talwinder Singh Parmar in all his glory at Fremont, California Gurudwara - only a blown up 747 is missing in the background.


User currently offlineSchipholjfk From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 579 posts, RR: 6
Reply 18, posted (9 years 7 months 1 week 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 4130 times:

How can a SINGLE judge/person decide an entire case? Doesn't the Canadian system have a system that supports a panel of judges to decide cases? How is it possible that such an important case can be decided by a SINGLE person?


The fun of flying... love it !!!
User currently offlineMrniji From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 19, posted (9 years 7 months 1 week 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 4118 times:

OK, let me try to give on eposition of a non-Punjabi Sikh

First, I am shocked and agree that Canadian Justice has failed in this particular case. Annoying that jurisdiction was not in India. Were they caught in Canada? Probably. Canadian laws did not allow extradiction to a country where ded penalty is possible.

Quoting Gamps (Reply 10):
I bet today here at Fremont and San Jose Gurudwaras there will be sweets distributed and verdict celebrated!

I disagree strongly. The image that all Diaspora Sikhs belong to the dead Khalistan movement is wrong, and very wrong! The image that these Sikhs are happy about what happened cannot be supported, since many of them are more loyal to India than everyone else, and many Sikhs have been killed.

Quoting Gamps (Reply 14):
Will Air India still plan on flying to Canada after this ruling?

I would not see any problem

Quoting Jaysit (Reply 15):
I'd love to see some hard statistics showing that any Western government is permitting Sikhs to claim refugee status based on
their "Khalistani" status after 1995

In Germany, 99,9 % of them are denied Asylum, since India is considered to be entirely safe. The very few receive Asylum on humanitarian grounds. Most of them are caught at the Airport and sent back within few days

Quoting Jetlagged (Reply 16):
So, Sikhs should be added to Muslims on the automatic terrorist suspect list?

Idiot, be ashamed. be aware of your acrimonious words. You completely misunderstood what was said. By the way, tell your prime minister to put Muslims off that mentioned list in your country.

Quoting Jetlagged (Reply 16):
Maybe the defendant was actually guilty. It has to be proved beyond a shadow of a doubt. Canadian justice did not fail, perhaps the prosecutors did.

Maybe, maybe, maybe:

Quoting Jetlagged (Reply 16):
However that also means you would not in the best position to judge.

Dito. You know, ha?



Sad verdict. Is there any possibility to appeal? I have no idea about Canadian jurisprudence, but it seems to be a werid system


User currently offlineJaysit From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 20, posted (9 years 7 months 1 week 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 4119 times:

For the record India counts in top 5 countries whose citizens claim political asylum in Western Countries - some 12000 people last year.

12,000 people may claim asylum in the West, but very few of these are approved. Of the 1200 Indians seeking asylum in the UK for instance, only 5% (60) were granted admission as refugees. Most asylum seekers are just economic immigrants from Gujarat or Punjab who arrive in the West, then tear up their travel documents in a vain attempt at seeking asylum. While this may have worked 20 years ago, rarely does it work today.

Because there are still tons of Khalistani elements in Canada who are still against Indian govt and Indian govt assets.

Tons? Where? Your beliefs are not tantamount to proof. Besides if these supposed Khalistanis wanted to blow up an AI plane, why would they do it from Canada where they are probably under hyper surveillance post AI 182? They'd try if from a soft target like Nairobi or Bangkok or even London where they may even find one or two fellow compadres.


User currently offlineAvek00 From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 4405 posts, RR: 19
Reply 21, posted (9 years 7 months 1 week 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 4099 times:

"And as proved by mysterious disappearance of tapes, it is clear that Khalistani types have penetrated CSIS and other government apparatus in Canada."

LOL - hardly. More likely:

1. The tapes were erased due to an accidental oversight (mishandling, believe it or not, happens from time to time when dealing with large institutions such as bureaucracies, or airlines); or

2. The information on the tapes was of such a highly sensitive nature that the Canadian Government could not allow the material to become public under any circumstances - the potential of a defeat in a criminal trial was far outweighed by grave national security concerns surrounding the protection of valuable sources and methods, or concealing the existence of clandestine operations.



Live life to the fullest.
User currently offlineJasepl From India, joined Jul 2004, 3582 posts, RR: 39
Reply 22, posted (9 years 7 months 1 week 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 4091 times:

I'm sorry, but the purpose of the trial wasn't to rid the world of the Khalistani menace, or discourage asylum seekers or anything. I have to agree with Jaysit's statement that the point any reasonable system of jurisprudence is to provide "a fair trial, not a confirmed verdict." This seems to have been done.

In the Justice's own words: "Despite what appear to have been the best and most earnest of efforts by the police and the Crown, the evidence has fallen markedly short of that standard."


User currently offlineAvek00 From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 4405 posts, RR: 19
Reply 23, posted (9 years 7 months 1 week 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 4085 times:

"In the Justice's own words: "Despite what appear to have been the best and most earnest of efforts by the police and the Crown, the evidence has fallen markedly short of that standard."

Indeed, I gathered from the verdict that the judge *wanted* to find the men guilty, but could not do so without himself committing a breach of justice. It is worth remembering that terrorism seeks to force a society to alter its way of life - throwing out the rule of law to support a guilty finding would have amount to a victory, not a defeat, for the terrorists.



Live life to the fullest.
User currently onlineF9Animal From United States of America, joined Dec 2004, 5078 posts, RR: 29
Reply 24, posted (9 years 7 months 1 week 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 4076 times:

So this means they walk free? They are guilty!!!!! I say fly them to India, and let them walk the streets for a few hours....

This is an absolute insult, and injustice!!!!!! I am saddened for the families who have wanted justice for all these years, just to have a moron judge in a chair let them walk.

Anyone involved in terror deserves the ultimate penalty. Death.

Quoting Jetlagged (Reply 16):
I can understand if you have Indian links that you would feel extremely strongly about this case. However that also means you would not in the best position to judge.

So let me get this right... If the United States captures Osama Bin Laden, we should send him to Canada for trial. I guess the United States would not be a good enough judge to fry the trash hole?

I think India had a right to try them, and I bet they would have given them what they deserved.



I Am A Different Animal!!
25 Aseem : Just follow the Canadian news website and you'll find that it was a serious issue. Those tapes were concerning Canadian Authorities tapping on the ac
26 Jaysit : Absolutely no words to describe the whole thing. What a waste. Undoubtedly. But don't blame the Canadian Courts for that; blame the various law enforc
27 YVR99 : Dear all, I fear that many of the posters in this thread don't really have any idea what justice is and are confusing the law enforcement and intellig
28 Mdsh00 : I am not too familiar with this case as I was pretty young when all of this happened. Their acquittal does seem like a load of crap based on what I've
29 Vimanav : It is completely fallacious to type cast Sikhs (or anybody for that matter) as anti-Indian. Let's not forget that a large number of personnel in our a
30 LH477 : A few observations on my part: -As guilty as these men may be, their guilt it seems was not proven beyond reason of doubt as BC Justice Josephson stat
31 AirIndia : A sikhs reaction: The verdict is indeed surprising and shocking and my heart goes out to the families of all who lost their dear ones. What happened d
32 B747-437B : By all accounts, that proposed operation is under review, but is not expected to be affected significantly. I'd be more concerned about Air Canada's
33 LH477 : Sean..You can't be serious???.....Could this also mean that AC's proposed/rumored expansion into BOM would be effected as well.
34 Mrniji : Guru, thanks for your post. I feel sorry for all this and 100 % myself take distance what was a state-planned and executed pogrom, by the cong(I) - th
35 Aseem : Sorry!! I dont' think so. People like us do get swayed for a moment, but Govts are far more mature. rgds Aseem
36 B747-437B : It is PEOPLE not Governments who will be expressing their displeasure with Canada, I assure you. And even institutions, however noble they may be, ar
37 Concorde001 : Don't be so stupid. The UK has the largest Sikh community outside India, and trust me when I say that the High Commission doesn't have sophisticated
38 Post contains images Avek00 : "Could you please explain how can anything be more sensitive and crucial than the evidence itself. Unless government agencies are trying to hide somet
39 Post contains images Aseem : If that is the case, then whats the point of whole exercise. Why waste time and money to gather information when you can't make a case out of it. The
40 Yu138086 : So who gives retribution for the mishandling of the evidence and inaction of officials in exchange for non-admission of guilt? Indians, Canadians, or
41 B747-437B : The official statement by the Government of India seems to leave this option open.
42 Jaysit : All said and done, the two defendants probably have a rather unhappy life ahead of them as they will be constantly looking over their shoulders for th
43 Post contains images Aseem : here are some photos rgds Aseem
44 Post contains links Gamps : Folks - it was not my intention to paint whole Sikh community as terrorists or as asylumseekers. I am just disgusted at these Khalistanis whom I encou
45 Yyz717 : I was as shocked as everyone that these dudes were acquitted. As someone said above, the "fault" is not with the Canadian legal system, it was simply
46 B747-437B : Neil, I know you love yanking the chains of the Indians on this board (and you do it so well too!!!), but on this thread please accept my sincere tha
47 EnviroTO : Memories of the OJ Simpson trial. As much as we feel we know the people are guilty it doesn't matter if you can't prove it. Hopefully there will be an
48 AirIndia : I dont see any one of these 'extremists' garner support from the sikh community. What happened in the 80s was riding on the KLF wave then initiated b
49 Post contains images Yyz717 : This thread (more than most) is a time for seriousness, not sarcasm or chain yanking, whatever that is. Seriously though, India should advise Canada
50 AirIndia : There are no sikh extremists in India. So they cant emigrate to canada. Even if some exhibit extremist behaviour, it is probably because of people li
51 Yyz717 : You wanna bet? You think peaceful loving Sikhs come to Canada and become Hindu-hating extremists? The hatred started in India. Whether you want to be
52 Gamps : India should advise Canada when Sikh extremists are emigrating to Canada so we can keep an eye on them How about deporting them from Canada when Indi
53 AirIndia : Give me a good reason why sikhs would become hindu-hating. What originated in india in the 80s has died out now. read in the earlier post. Why would
54 Mrniji : This does not make sense. If any extremists were to emigrate from India, they could be sacked at the border and dealt with India. So why inform Canad
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