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Get Rid Of Seniority System  
User currently offlineKITH From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 377 posts, RR: 1
Posted (9 years 3 months 3 weeks 6 days 7 hours ago) and read 5731 times:

I've been thinking about this over and over again...
Why don't airlines/new airlines get rid of the seniority system for F/A's, Pilots etc? In most other fields, say banking/real estate/education/retail, you get promoted based on results, not on a number or how many years with the company. I want to hear what everyone thinks, but especially those flying the line. Thanks. -Matt in KITH

64 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineJetjack74 From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 7401 posts, RR: 51
Reply 1, posted (9 years 3 months 3 weeks 6 days 7 hours ago) and read 5723 times:
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And throw out the rule of law while you're at it.


Made from jets!
User currently offlineSllevin From United States of America, joined Jan 2002, 3376 posts, RR: 6
Reply 2, posted (9 years 3 months 3 weeks 6 days 7 hours ago) and read 5706 times:

Doesn't make sense because there's no way to get "results." Pretty much, pilots are all good and of equal value to the company. Seniority is the only differentiator.

Steve


User currently offlineFRA2DTW From Germany, joined Feb 2004, 322 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (9 years 3 months 3 weeks 6 days 7 hours ago) and read 5693 times:

I would like to see a national ALPA seniority system so when someone like TWA goes down, the pilots can integrate into other ALPA carriers. After all, pilots have very little to do with the success or failure of an airline. The current system is archaic.

User currently offlineN766UA From United States of America, joined Jul 1999, 8182 posts, RR: 24
Reply 4, posted (9 years 3 months 3 weeks 6 days 7 hours ago) and read 5662 times:

I don't see any other way besides seniority.... It's been that way since the '30s.


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User currently offlineLemurs From United States of America, joined Mar 2005, 1439 posts, RR: 4
Reply 5, posted (9 years 3 months 3 weeks 6 days 7 hours ago) and read 5661 times:

Quoting Sllevin (Reply 2):
Doesn't make sense because there's no way to get "results." Pretty much, pilots are all good and of equal value to the company. Seniority is the only differentiator.

Right. You need to know the consequences of your incentive programs before you put them in place. In a business like flying, at least for pilots and MX, you want them focused squarely on getting the job done safely. Putting carrots and sticks out there distracts from that to a great degree, and accidents would start happening...even if the goal was based around safety! Once you try and put metrics around anything, people will attempt to game the system for gain. You can't game seniority.



There are 10 kinds of people in the world; those who understand binary, and those that don't.
User currently offlineKITH From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 377 posts, RR: 1
Reply 6, posted (9 years 3 months 3 weeks 6 days 6 hours ago) and read 5629 times:

Well, the idea of paying on experience but it doesn't make sense to me that a 30 year veteran say for US leaves and goes to fly for AA and although he/she has a lot more experience then say a 5 year AA FO he/she starts at the bottom. If I was a chief analyst/manager say for Wal Mart, I wouldn't go start out as a cashier. -Matt in KITH

User currently offlinePDXtriple7 From United States of America, joined Dec 2004, 695 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (9 years 3 months 3 weeks 6 days 6 hours ago) and read 5611 times:

I can understand senority system with Pilots and other important jobs, that makes their jobs easier and safer for everyone, but why not flight attendants and gate/ counter agents on performance? Some do their jobs much better than others, and they should be rewarded for that. Incentives would create more production and customer service from those that wanted to climb up the latter quicker.

User currently offlineAvek00 From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 4336 posts, RR: 19
Reply 8, posted (9 years 3 months 3 weeks 6 days 6 hours ago) and read 5590 times:

"I can understand senority system with Pilots and other important jobs, that makes their jobs easier and safer for everyone, but why not flight attendants and gate/ counter agents on performance? Some do their jobs much better than others, and they should be rewarded for that. Incentives would create more production and customer service from those that wanted to climb up the latter quicker."

Union and non-union airlines alike use the seniority system because of the lack of an acceptable alternative objective retention and promotion regime. For most rank-and-file workers in the airline business, where the duties of a given job are standardized and routine, a "performance"-based system would prove counterproductive, as it encourages cutting corners in the name of meeting targets.



Live life to the fullest.
User currently offlineZippyjet From United States of America, joined Sep 2001, 5467 posts, RR: 13
Reply 9, posted (9 years 3 months 3 weeks 6 days 6 hours ago) and read 5582 times:

Human beings are SUBJECTIVE! There is already way too much favoritism and politicking in almost all work places! If God declared and made us all 100% objective than maybe then we can talk about this unwanted change. I'm a customer service agent with almost three years and am cracking the top 10! So you know damn well that if you came to my station and proposed this, then we might just have to have a little sit down!. Within our company we have programs and recognition for excellence. Change for the sake of change can be another nail in the coffin of common sense and structure. Take one look at our society today and it is evident of the erosion of courtesy, decency and most of all common sense.




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User currently offlineLightsaber From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 12779 posts, RR: 100
Reply 10, posted (9 years 3 months 3 weeks 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 5510 times:
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Quoting Sllevin (Reply 2):
Doesn't make sense because there's no way to get "results." Pretty much, pilots are all good and of equal value to the company. Seniority is the only differentiator.

Out of curiosity, has any airline adopted an hours based seniority system? For pilots and f/a there seems to be an obvious cost reduction benifit as well as reward system. Obviously, current (or modified) faa limits would need to be in place to prevent egregious abuses.

And I disagree on one point: I'd like at least one of the two pilots to have some gray hair! Old-pilot=skilled enough to survive. As long as the person can pass the physical,that is...

Lightsaber



Societies that achieve a critical mass of ideas achieve self sustaining growth; others stagnate.
User currently offlineRevelation From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 12270 posts, RR: 25
Reply 11, posted (9 years 3 months 3 weeks 6 days 4 hours ago) and read 5447 times:

In my non-aviation, high-tech career, I would have found a seniority system to be a huge negative. You only learn so much working with the same people in the same system. After a while, it's time to move on. While the present employer doesn't necessarily agree it's a good idea, in the long run it is. If there were a seniority system there'd be such a penalty in moving, no one would do it once they had a year or two invested in a company, and we'd all rot in place. Seniority leads to a very stagnant workforce.


Inspiration, move me brightly!
User currently offlineVC-10 From United Kingdom, joined Oct 1999, 3697 posts, RR: 34
Reply 12, posted (9 years 3 months 3 weeks 6 days 4 hours ago) and read 5421 times:
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It a way it's quite amusing reading this thread with everybody justifying the seniority system as the only way. In the UK at least, I do not know of a company that uses senority as way of promotion in Mx and it doesn't compromise safety.

Over the last couple of years I have worked closely with a couple of large US operators and from what I have seen all the seniority system does is promote some people above their capabilties which then demotivates good people below them. It also disuades people changing jobs because they have to start at the bottom again regardless of how proficient they are at their chosen career.


User currently offlineSonOfACaptain From United States of America, joined May 2004, 1747 posts, RR: 6
Reply 13, posted (9 years 3 months 3 weeks 6 days 4 hours ago) and read 5412 times:

The seniority system is very important in the sense that it protects the pilots form unfair play. Would it be right to have a 25 year-old pilot fly the A330, and the 55 year-old fly a CRJ, just so the airline saves a little money?

The seniority is bad because once a pilot gets hired at an airline, he officially is married to that airline. They don't want to start all over again.

Quoting FRA2DTW (Reply 3):
I would like to see a national ALPA seniority system so when someone like TWA goes down, the pilots can integrate into other ALPA carriers. After all, pilots have very little to do with the success or failure of an airline. The current system is archaic.

The problem with this is when an airline goes into deep trouble, all the pilots would leave for airlines in a much better shape. They would do this because it wouldn't affect them in any shape.

-SOAC



Non Illegitimi Carborundum
User currently offlineVHXLR8 From Australia, joined Feb 2005, 500 posts, RR: 3
Reply 14, posted (9 years 3 months 3 weeks 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 5402 times:

Actually, at Qantas, promotions are done on the basis of merit, not seniority. A flight attendant can apply for a CSM position if they wish (when positions are available), and the selection process is a merit based system.
This of course hasn't always been the way, and you can always tell the CSMs that hail from the days of seniority based promotions!


User currently offlineVC-10 From United Kingdom, joined Oct 1999, 3697 posts, RR: 34
Reply 15, posted (9 years 3 months 3 weeks 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 5372 times:
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Quoting SonOfACaptain (Reply 13):
Would it be right to have a 25 year-old pilot fly the A330, and the 55 year-old fly a CRJ, just so the airline saves a little money?

I don't see any problem with that. I would say it is rather simplistic to say it would only happen to enable an operator to save money. If the 25 YO had the experience and hours to qualify for such a Captaincy then good luck to him - its called life. It it right that he should be held back while he waits for someone to die and create a promotion? Why should Pilots be mollycoddled?


User currently offlineStarlionblue From Greenland, joined Feb 2004, 16975 posts, RR: 67
Reply 16, posted (9 years 3 months 3 weeks 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 5372 times:

Quoting Revelation (Reply 11):
In my non-aviation, high-tech career, I would have found a seniority system to be a huge negative. You only learn so much working with the same people in the same system. After a while, it's time to move on. While the present employer doesn't necessarily agree it's a good idea, in the long run it is. If there were a seniority system there'd be such a penalty in moving, no one would do it once they had a year or two invested in a company, and we'd all rot in place. Seniority leads to a very stagnant workforce.

I agree, and I also think the seniority system is one of the reasons US legacy carriers are in so much trouble. As has been said by several, seniority simply leads to many sitting on their jobs and thinking about seniority instead of performance. To paraphrase what as B747Skipper once said: "When I worked for Pan Am, I spent my spare time in the cockpit reading seniority tables. Now I read the paper." He was so happy to be spared the seniority thing at Aerolineas.

One way of resolving the issue would be to do the Microsoft thing (also used by many others) where every employee is rated by everyone else they have "touched", while that employee's manager retains the greatest say. By spreading the feedback out among so many ensures politicking is kept to a minimum. Employees rated highest in the relevant disciplines (safety, adherence to procedures, CRM, customer service, language skills for international pilots and F/As, etc...) would gain an advantage in the promotion ladder.

Promote those most competent and hard working, not those who have worked the longest. The correlation between the two is by no means a given!

Quoting SonOfACaptain (Reply 13):
The seniority system is very important in the sense that it protects the pilots form unfair play. Would it be right to have a 25 year-old pilot fly the A330, and the 55 year-old fly a CRJ, just so the airline saves a little money?

Of course. What's the problem with that? Is flying the CRJ less important? At SAS many very senior pilots choose to step away from long haul and fly intra Europe so they can be home more.



"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots."
User currently offlineRAMPRAT980 From United States of America, joined Mar 2005, 600 posts, RR: 3
Reply 17, posted (9 years 3 months 3 weeks 5 days 20 hours ago) and read 5255 times:

I think the seniority system is the best system. Would it be fair to get rid of a dedicated and hard working employee who has seniority instead of one who is lazy and kisses the bosses rear end constantly and has less seniority


With gun control there can be no democracy.. With gun control there can be no Freedom
User currently offlineSWAFA30 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 18, posted (9 years 3 months 3 weeks 5 days 20 hours ago) and read 5193 times:

I think what some who would advocate doing away with seniority fail to fully appreciate are the logistics of airline staffing.

Since I can only speak from my perspective, let's look at how doing away with seniority(or the lack thereof) would impact my Flight Attendant crew base.

There are approximately 1220 crewmembers in my base. Every month, our schedules change as our pairings are altered to reflect how aircraft flow through the system. For the month of April, there were nearly 300 different lines....without seniority how do you decide who gets which schedule?

For the month of April, crew planning decided that to maintain the integrity of the operation BWI needed 323 reserve Flight Attendants. The reserves must surrender control of their lives to the company 4 days a week...meanwhile the lineholders know where they are going, how long they will be there and when they are coming back. How do you decide which 323 of BWI's 1220 F/As are going to get stuck with reserve?

At SWA we earn 2 weeks vacation after 1 year, 3 weeks after 5 years, 4 weeks after 10 years and I believe 5 weeks after 20 years. In BWI with Flight Attendants at each of the above mentioned levels of service, there are literally thousands of weeks of earned vacation to be taken in 2005. To keep the base running smoothly, only so many vacation slots can be awarded per week and per month....who gets the choice Christmas and Thanksgiving vacation slots?


A cabin crew is inbound to BWI and the pilots get a message from Ops to have the Flight Attendants call scheduling on arrival....The stews were supposed to be done for the week on arrival at BWI but, Crew Sked needs to assign additional flying to one person. The voluntary overtime list has been exhausted...which Flight Attendant gets the mandatory OT?

Recruiting, hiring, and training crewmembers is expensive. While senior employees can be pricey....so can constant turnover. The seniority system could be compared to the Frequent Flyer programs that keep airline Customers beholden to a given carrier.


User currently offlineRevelation From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 12270 posts, RR: 25
Reply 19, posted (9 years 3 months 3 weeks 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 5100 times:

Quoting SonOfACaptain (Reply 13):
The seniority system is very important in the sense that it protects the pilots form unfair play. Would it be right to have a 25 year-old pilot fly the A330, and the 55 year-old fly a CRJ, just so the airline saves a little money?

The best pilot should be flying the plane. In many cases, that would be a more senior pilot, but as many of us see in our day-to-day lives, the senior people can start to loose motivation at some point, and their performance then drops off. The seniority system has no way of weeding these people out.

Quoting SonOfACaptain (Reply 13):
The problem with this is when an airline goes into deep trouble, all the pilots would leave for airlines in a much better shape. They would do this because it wouldn't affect them in any shape.

So, what you are saying, is the healthier airlines would attract the most talented and motivated employees, and the less healthy airlines would degrade and presumably would die off. This is how capitalism is supposed to work, no?

Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 16):
One way of resolving the issue would be to do the Microsoft thing (also used by many others) where every employee is rated by everyone else they have "touched", while that employee's manager retains the greatest say. By spreading the feedback out among so many ensures politicking is kept to a minimum. Employees rated highest in the relevant disciplines (safety, adherence to procedures, CRM, customer service, language skills for international pilots and F/As, etc...) would gain an advantage in the promotion ladder.

Sounds like a really good system. My company does keep a ranking of employees, but from what I can tell it's all done by managers.

Quoting RAMPRAT980 (Reply 17):
I think the seniority system is the best system. Would it be fair to get rid of a dedicated and hard working employee who has seniority instead of one who is lazy and kisses the bosses rear end constantly and has less seniority

That's one of the possible outcomes, but keep in mind the bosses are rated too, and if they promote ass kissers then their ratings will fall and they'll be in trouble too. On the other hand, the seniority system does not weed out senior people whose performance drops off.

Quoting SWAFA30 (Reply 18):
without seniority how do you decide who gets which schedule?

You'd still be ranked, but it would not be done solely by how long you've been with the company.

Quoting SWAFA30 (Reply 18):
At SWA we earn 2 weeks vacation after 1 year, 3 weeks after 5 years, 4 weeks after 10 years and I believe 5 weeks after 20 years

In my company, everyone gets the same amount of vacation time, from the CEO to the new hire. It's fairly generous by US standards. While you can say that it doesn't give an incentive to stay, that really isn't a problem for highly motivated individuals (most of us don't end up taking the vacation anyway!), and it does give people a good incentive to join our company, and it does help get rid of the sense of entitlement that senior people seem to get.

Quoting SWAFA30 (Reply 18):
Recruiting, hiring, and training crewmembers is expensive. While senior employees can be pricey....so can constant turnover.

Seniority systems do not weed out senior people who loose their motivation. Motivated new hires see that in action pretty quickly, and decide to move on, and so the source of motivated future senior people is cut off, and you end up with a bunch of people whose main motivation is to acquire more seniority as opposed to working harder and acquiring a better skill set. That's a pretty poor situation if you ask me.



Inspiration, move me brightly!
User currently offlineKITH From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 377 posts, RR: 1
Reply 20, posted (9 years 3 months 3 weeks 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 5099 times:

SWAFA30 thanks for that post, it really gives a good insight into the seniority system. I think that a modified version of the seniority system might work. Once you are working for the company for a year or two, you generally stay as long as the pay/work environment hasn't drastically changed, FF programs and jobs are like apples and Boeings. If I am exec plat w/ AA and they start taking away pillows, losing my bags consistantly, I'd leave AA and fly another comprable airline, even if I lost my status, if I'm that high status anyways I'd gain it back within a year, not so with a job/seniority in an airline.
-Keep intra company seniority for the many reasons you listed above but if one has the experience with airline XXX and airline XXX needs many concessions from the employees, why not be able to go to airline YYY with somewhat comparable pay and since you have the experience in flying say, 777's, fly their 777's (if they have them). I would think it would be cheaper then re training the employee from a 777 to a 737. -Matt in KITH


User currently offlineSWAFA30 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 21, posted (9 years 3 months 3 weeks 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 5038 times:

Quoting Revelation (Reply 19):
You'd still be ranked, but it would not be done solely by how long you've been with the company.

How exactly do you propose to rank the nearly 8,000 Flight Attendants at Southwest Airlines alone? What is the basis for the rankings? Customer Satisfaction? How do you gauge it? Fewest Customer complaints? Most Customer Compliments? What happens when 50 people in the same base have the exact same number of Complaints and Compliments? In an airline environment especially, when you have this many people doing the exact same job....something has to act as a tiebreaker.

Quoting Revelation (Reply 19):
In my company, everyone gets the same amount of vacation time, from the CEO to the new hire. It's fairly generous by US standards. While you can say that it doesn't give an incentive to stay, that really isn't a problem for highly motivated individuals (most of us don't end up taking the vacation anyway!), and it does give people a good incentive to join our company, and it does help get rid of the sense of entitlement that senior people seem to get.

The point of my statement was not about how much vacation we get but rather, to point out the logistical nightmare of trying to assign thousands of vacation weeks around the constraints of a 24/7/365 like an airline without a deciding factor such as seniority.

Quoting Revelation (Reply 19):
Seniority systems do not weed out senior people who loose their motivation. Motivated new hires see that in action pretty quickly, and decide to move on, and so the source of motivated future senior people is cut off, and you end up with a bunch of people whose main motivation is to acquire more seniority as opposed to working harder and acquiring a better skill set. That's a pretty poor situation if you ask me.

Which is why it is so important to hire the right people in the first place whether you are hiring for a position that is merit-based or tenured.

It is important also to point out that there is a difference between simply gaining seniority and being promoted. Should I decide I would like to move into management, I cannot do so simply by nature of seniority. I have to apply, interview and earn the job based on my talents, skills, and merits. I choose to look at it this way. My seniority number and whatever status comes with it by nature of my longevity can indeed act a motivation to put my best foot forward on the job. Even though I'm a union member, I can be let go and the thought of climbing another seniority list is not something I relish.

Quoting KITH (Reply 20):
-Keep intra company seniority for the many reasons you listed above but if one has the experience with airline XXX and airline XXX needs many concessions from the employees, why not be able to go to airline YYY with somewhat comparable pay and since you have the experience in flying say, 777's, fly their 777's (if they have them). I would think it would be cheaper then re training the employee from a 777 to a 737. -Matt in KITH

The problem is $$$. Airlines pay their pilots based on the size of aircraft they operate. The pilot at airline YYY who has been paitently putting in his time on the 737 waiting to move up to the "big iron" with the payraise that comes along with it is going to get real cranky when the pilot from XXX comes along and take the coveted F/O or CA on the 777. The company might save money but morale would be destroyed in the process.


User currently offlineCcrlR From United States of America, joined Aug 2001, 2232 posts, RR: 0
Reply 22, posted (9 years 3 months 3 weeks 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 5011 times:
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Some other places do a pay raise when you can perform the work well. One FBO I had applied for a job said that they raise your pay by the quality of the work you do. But I think it varies with what occupation it is and the type of company it is also.


"He was right, it is a screaming metal deathtrap!"-Cosmo (from the Fairly Oddparents)
User currently offlineStarlionblue From Greenland, joined Feb 2004, 16975 posts, RR: 67
Reply 23, posted (9 years 3 months 3 weeks 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 5000 times:

Quoting RAMPRAT980 (Reply 17):
I think the seniority system is the best system. Would it be fair to get rid of a dedicated and hard working employee who has seniority instead of one who is lazy and kisses the bosses rear end constantly and has less seniority

Well I think the point of my comment was that employees would be ranked by their bosses AND their peers. That way the politicking can be kept to a minimum. Also, I do think there is a role for length of service in the rating mix, just not as the largest factor.

Quoting SWAFA30 (Reply 21):
Quoting Revelation (Reply 19):
You'd still be ranked, but it would not be done solely by how long you've been with the company.

How exactly do you propose to rank the nearly 8,000 Flight Attendants at Southwest Airlines alone? What is the basis for the rankings? Customer Satisfaction? How do you gauge it? Fewest Customer complaints? Most Customer Compliments? What happens when 50 people in the same base have the exact same number of Complaints and Compliments? In an airline environment especially, when you have this many people doing the exact same job....something has to act as a tiebreaker.

The supervisors etc will act as tiebreakers. That's why they pay them the big bucks.

Rankings would be by peer review. For pilots instructor ratings would be included.


Let's face it, there is no way to make a perfect system. I just think that seniority stifles many talented young people or people who have worked 20 years then had to change horses, while promoting those who are best at staying in their seat, regardless of whether they are good or not.

Don't misunderstand me, there are plenty of brilliant 30 year employees and plenty of crappy 3 year ones, but a peer based review would manage to weed those out regardless of length of service.


Example: What if airline A boss wants to hire brilliant customer service supervisor from airline B, because she thinks he could really develop the operation in a certain area, and help the airline do better? This would not be possible due to seniority.


Succesful companies become that way in large part because motivated employees work hard and well. This is by no means a function of length of service. Succesful companies promote on MERIT, not length of service.



"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots."
User currently onlineCALMSP From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 3915 posts, RR: 8
Reply 24, posted (9 years 3 months 3 weeks 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 4989 times:
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i would love to see this abolished for agents.....you could be the laziest, worst, slowest, etc. etc. and still get pay raises becuase of your tenure. nothing is based on performance for an agent.


okay, I'm waiting for the rich to spread the wealth around to me. Please mail your checks to my house.
25 PlaneSmart : The fixation on seniority = length of service is out-dated. It's a 'cover' for not using other ways of assessing people performance, and rewarding acc
26 CALMSP : i bet we could cut half of hte top out agents in IAH!! THERE are many who sit around and will do as little as possible to help others. the ones that y
27 SWAFA30 : Supervisors often make less than line crewmembers because their hours are limited but that's besides the point. I still think the logistics of what w
28 Incitatus : Notice that the current system also benefits the airlines and a single ALPA seniority system would be damaging to the airlines. Airlines tolerate the
29 MaverickM11 : "Airlines tolerate the seniority system because they benefit from it through stability" Airlines do NOT benefit from the seniority system.
30 Starlionblue : Many large corporations such as UBS and Microsoft have peer reviewing. There are computer systems to handle the logistics. Who says it has to be ever
31 EA CO AS : I will agree with you that the logistics are daunting. But is that really an excuse to keep the current unfair system? No, the "excuse" is the fact th
32 Lemurs : Actually, Microsoft does a system of self-reviewing, with management using those self-reviews to rank you among your peers. I don't think that system
33 M404 : How does a pilot show results? How is that gauged against others when bidding a line?
34 EA CO AS : The seniority is bad because once a pilot gets hired at an airline, he officially is married to that airline. They don't want to start all over again.
35 Revelation : Seems like others have described how peer ranking works so I'll skip over that. Well, as Clint Eastwood said in Unforgiven, "Deserve has nothing to do
36 Wbmech : It seems as though most of the posters against the seniority based system do not work in the industry. Seniority is the only fair way to handle things
37 Lemurs : That was one of the things I was trying to drive at earlier in the thread. I come from a very performance based, competitive field, and I acknowledge
38 Starlionblue : Indeed. As I said the logistics are daunting. Peer review. Other pilots he flies with, his boss and instructor pilots in the sim and the line gauge h
39 SonOfACaptain : How would you like to be 55, and only making $30,000 a year? Because that is what would happen. I don't want any pilot to go through what my dad has
40 Post contains images Starlionblue : I'm not disagreeing with you. Well, maybe a little . I think that US carriers have taken the concept of seniority way too far. Of course length of se
41 SonOfACaptain : Yeah, that would be the ideal situation, however, for a major carrier like AA or UA, that would be impossible to do. There are way too many pilots to
42 Post contains images Starlionblue : Impossible is a word I don't like All these pilots have a boss right? And they fly with other pilots right? So how is peer and manager review impossi
43 ContnlEliteCMH : Actually, I find the current seniority system to promote a certain backward concept. The highest risk portions of flight are takeoff and landing. So
44 Starlionblue : Hear hear!!! Of course, this is much more apparent in North America, where pilots on big birds get paid more. At SAS and most Euroairlines, senior pi
45 Post contains images Revelation : It's not about what we'd all like, it's about reality. As someone closer to your father's age than yours, I do wonder if I'll be earning a lot less t
46 OzGlobal : Very true. When I've been lucky enough to travel in First on QF LHR-MEL-LHR the F/A's have been YOUNG (under 26) and outstanding. This could only be
47 NWrr : There are times when seniority systems have their benefits, and then there are times where they don't. In my case, I was a, in my opinion, really good
48 Post contains images Starlionblue : I didn't want to be the first one to bring up Marxism-Leninism, but as OzGlobal says the work ethic easily goes down the toilet if incentives are not
49 OzGlobal : It may even go some way toward explaining QF's recently announced record profits?[Edited 2005-03-18 01:46:57]
50 CanadianNorth : Article 23: (2) "Everyone, without any discrimination, has the right to equal pay for equal work." - United Nations Universal Delcaration of Human Rig
51 Aa757first : That is not what that means at all. What about a "worksheet" similar to this? Base Rate: $1,103.00 month Language Rate: $200.00 month Peer Review: Ex
52 Citjet : As long as you are going to be paying someone based on how long that person has worked for that airline, you must adhere to a seniority based system.
53 ContnlEliteCMH : Yet another reason to laugh in mocking derision at the corrupt, useless debating society that is the United Nations. Equality based purely on results
54 SWAFA30 : Great companies of all but none of them are airlines. It's an apples and oranges of comparison. The logistics we are talking about that make using se
55 SWAFA30 : On the flip-side you have Southwest Airlines one of the most unionized, seniority driven carriers in the United States which is simultaneously one th
56 Incitatus : Of course airlines benefit because it is a disincentive to jump ship. Every employer likes (i.e. it's lower cost) low employee turnover. Now, how abo
57 Malaysia : with my seniority, I just never can take my vacation, so its always shift trades for me.
58 OzGlobal : How do you monitor it in any service industry? Sounds like a question from the Politburo.
59 OzGlobal : Off the topic, but so is this post: the UN is nothing more or less than the assembly of the international community, US included, attempting to work
60 Jetdeltamsy : i think the seniority system must stay in place. we're in positions where there is little room for advancement. a lot of people do move up, but for ev
61 ContnlEliteCMH : I reject the premise of your question. The United Nations is hardly the antidote to 19th century imperialism. Further, this is not a binary choice be
62 SE210Caravelle : As most of the posters have stated, I believe that the seniority system is the only way to do it. There is nothing wrong with it either. It offers a r
63 M404 : And for the very young person who wants seniority abolished for agents I'd like to see him keep his job when age starts telling on his abilities and s
64 Ozglobal : No. That's a tirade. What is your solution? Simply dispanding the UN WILL necessarily lead to 19th century imperialist dynamics, as there will be no
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