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Status Of BBI  
User currently offlineSquirrel83 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Posted (9 years 4 months 1 week 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 1749 times:

Does anyone know the status of BBI?
I guess i just need translation http://www.berlin-airport.de/bbi/rubDeutsch/rubProjekt/rubZahlen_Daten_Fakten/index.html



[Edited 2005-03-18 02:23:07]

21 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlineSE210Caravelle From United States of America, joined Dec 2004, 252 posts, RR: 1
Reply 1, posted (9 years 4 months 1 week 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 1730 times:

I wouldn't understand it even if it was in English!

S E 2 1 0 C a r a v e l l e


User currently offlineNudelhirsch From Germany, joined Oct 2003, 1438 posts, RR: 19
Reply 2, posted (9 years 4 months 1 week 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 1720 times:

Next to No 1 is the current airport SXF which will be closed, not sure what they will do with it. The far north runway, painted purple, was main runway for SXF and will be erased.
The upper white runway is already in use with SXF and will be extended from 3,000m to 3,600m towards the west (in orange).
There will be terminals south of the runway, in the beginning with a capacity of 20mio pax, possible extensions to 30mio.
On the south end there will be a new runway, 4,000m long.

In addition, the Autobahn and public transport will get connections to the new main terminal.

Numbers 2 and 3 show road projects, 4 is the actual main feeder autobahn, no1 (green) will be the metro train from Berlin.
The purple color is used for the actual airport SXF as to now, blue for BBI...

That should give some info...

As to the status...
The village of Diepensee is in progress of being erased, project scheduled to be finished by mid05.
Startup for BBI is scheduled to 2010... maybe some of us will live long enough to see BBI up and running... Wink



Putana da Seatbeltz!
User currently offlineDeltaMIA From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 1672 posts, RR: 17
Reply 3, posted (9 years 4 months 1 week 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 1698 times:

Looks like they copied Atlanta. Amazing what the difference will seem like for those that fly to THF and then have to go to this airport.


It's a big building with patients, but that's not important right now.
User currently offlineNudelhirsch From Germany, joined Oct 2003, 1438 posts, RR: 19
Reply 4, posted (9 years 4 months 1 week 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 1676 times:

Copied ATL?
Lol...BBI will be a DL hub...:P



Putana da Seatbeltz!
User currently offlineA350 From Germany, joined Nov 2004, 1100 posts, RR: 22
Reply 5, posted (9 years 4 months 1 week 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 1624 times:

Quoting SE210Caravelle (Reply 1):
even if it was in English!

Try that:
http://www.berlin-airport.de/bbi/rub.../rubZahlen_Daten_Fakten/index.html

A350



Photography - the art of observing, not the art of arranging
User currently offlineMHG From Germany, joined Dec 2004, 774 posts, RR: 1
Reply 6, posted (9 years 4 months 1 week 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 1592 times:

Going back to the original question i have to say it is still very uncertain if they can ever build the BBI in the planned way in the foreseeable future!

The local Berlin state administration are very much focused on building BBI but they are simply ignoring three major facts:

First of all it is very likely that they are not able to raise sufficient funds to finance the project! (the state´s and city´s account are more than just empty... - in fact very close to bankruptcy!)

And secondly analysts from various sources don´t see even a basic demand of an airport project of that size in Berlin! That is also the reason why private funds are very difficult to get!
Closing Tegel (TXL) and just providing Schönefeld (SXF) with a suitable terminal complex and maybe an upgrading of the existing runways would be sufficient for the forseeable future if Tempelhof (THF) is kept for the local market´s business travellers and general aviation. Why not making a combination of SXF/THF comparable to ORD/MDW (despite the fact that THF-aircraftsizes will remain limited due to runway length and obstacles in the dep/app-path)

Finally it is also quite likely that the approval of the project by the responsible court will be denied due to a couple of "formal-errors" of the application!

The big problem in Berlin is that the decisions regarding airports are not made depending on economics but based on ideology and dreams!!!



I miss the sound of rolls royce darts and speys
User currently offlineA350 From Germany, joined Nov 2004, 1100 posts, RR: 22
Reply 7, posted (9 years 4 months 1 week 1 day ago) and read 1559 times:

Quoting MHG (Reply 6):

The big problem in Berlin is that the decisions regarding airports are not made depending on economics but based on ideology and dreams!!!

Although I partially agree with your analysis of politics in Berlin, some things are more complicated. I think there are three important issues:

1) The politics of Berlin want to remove all Airports from the city because of safety and environmental concerns. Large parts of the city suffer from the noise, a crash would be awful. Remember, there are apartment buildings just at the fence. Furthermore, there is the question of terror. The distance from the approach path to the parliament/chancellor's office/Brandenburg Gate is about 5 km. However, removing airports which make money is economically is difficult affair.

2) Berlin is economically the weakest large city in Germany. However, things might change in 10 or 20 years. The BBI airport is already designed for the future's growth.

3) The legal situation for large projects in Germany is very difficult for many reasons. Remember what happened in Hamburg with the runway lengthening for Airbus. You have to prove that your project is necessary, and that it is of public interest. These rules are aimed to protect our small and densely populated country from stupid planning mistakes, but they make every project difficult. In the case of BBI, the opponents say the airport is not necessary since the existing ones provide sufficient capacity. It is possible that they succeed at the court.

In general, I think the project makes sense and should be built, however, we are not in a hurry and a delay would not be a big problem.

Greetings from Berlin

A350



Photography - the art of observing, not the art of arranging
User currently onlineOzarkD9S From United States of America, joined Oct 2001, 4997 posts, RR: 21
Reply 8, posted (9 years 4 months 1 week 1 day ago) and read 1545 times:

Seems to me there's room for more than 2 parallel runways. The one due to close could be extended westwards and the eastern portions closed for the proposed road.

If Berlin is going to close the four runways at Tegel and Tempelhof shoudn't BBI have at least 3?



Next Up: STL-LGA-RIC-ATL-STL
User currently offlineA350 From Germany, joined Nov 2004, 1100 posts, RR: 22
Reply 9, posted (9 years 4 months 1 week 1 day ago) and read 1527 times:

Quoting OzarkD9S (Reply 8):
If Berlin is going to close the four runways at Tegel and Tempelhof shoudn't BBI have at least 3?

THF doesn't have very much traffic and will maybe closed down soon. Furthermore, the parallel runways at TXL and THF are very close to their neighbors. As a result, the 2nd runway offers only a modest capacity increase (some issue as in FRA). The two runways in BBI will have sufficient distance to be fully independent as in many modern airports, e.g. MUC. For a long time, TXL was the only airport in Berlin with heavy traffic. However, the situation changed with the LCCs in SXF.

Greetings from Berlin

A350



Photography - the art of observing, not the art of arranging
User currently onlinePHX Flyer From United States of America, joined Apr 2001, 542 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (9 years 4 months 1 week 1 day ago) and read 1521 times:

@ Ozark:
The two runways at Tegel are too close for simultaneous approaches, so they count only for one and a half or less. Tempelhof is hardly utilized at all. So, two fully functional runways - far enough apart and sufficiently long - should probably suffice for the time being. Nonetheless, if I were involved in the planning, I would preserve the northernmost runway in the diagram for slower commuter aircraft.


User currently offlineA350 From Germany, joined Nov 2004, 1100 posts, RR: 22
Reply 11, posted (9 years 4 months 1 week 1 day ago) and read 1520 times:

Another remark to the capacity issue. Politics is afraid about overcapacities, not undercapacities, because of Berlin's poor economic situation and because the airport is so expensive.

There is a private former military airport with a 2500m runway at Neuhardenberg, approx. 30 km east of Berlin. The owners wants to open it for scheduled traffic, and about two years ago (before the LCC boom in SXF begun), Ryanair was interested and wanted to come. However, politics refused permission to avoid competition to BBI. IF there are suddenly capacity issues in BBI, it is still possible to go to Neuhardenberg.


There is an interesting website of an action group in favour of the airport and new jobs in a region with unemployment at about 20% (unfortunately in german):
http://www.proairport.neuhardenberg.org/

Greetings from Berlin

A350



Photography - the art of observing, not the art of arranging
User currently offlineNudelhirsch From Germany, joined Oct 2003, 1438 posts, RR: 19
Reply 12, posted (9 years 4 months 1 week 22 hours ago) and read 1499 times:

Quoting A350 (Reply 7):
Furthermore, there is the question of terror. The distance from the approach path to the parliament/chancellor's office/Brandenburg Gate is about 5 km. However, removing airports which make money is economically is difficult affair.

Not a factor. The distance might be 15km or maybe 20 in the future, but most modern airliners can handle that range, and it so close, that if terrorists would use a plane, there would not be sufucient time to react.



Putana da Seatbeltz!
User currently offlineSquirrel83 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 13, posted (9 years 4 months 1 week 17 hours ago) and read 1476 times:

Quoting MHG (Reply 6):
And secondly analysts from various sources don't see even a basic demand of an airport project of that size in Berlin!

I must agree to this because last time I was there Aviation travel seemed not to be in great demand right now,

Quoting A350 (Reply 7):
Berlin is economically the weakest large city in Germany. However, things might change in 10 or 20 years. The BBI airport is already designed for the future's growth.

but I do like the idea they are thinking ahead.

Thank you For all your Help~

On the following page it states that they are closing TXL; do you think this would be very wise?

Closure of Tegel: After the beginning of operations at BBI Tegel is closed

http://www.berlin-airport.de/bbi/rubEnglish/rubProjekt/rubZeitplan/index.html

[Edited 2005-03-19 03:39:55]

User currently offlineA350 From Germany, joined Nov 2004, 1100 posts, RR: 22
Reply 14, posted (9 years 4 months 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 1433 times:

Quoting Squirrel83 (Reply 13):
On the following page it states that they are closing TXL; do you think this would be very wise?

Exactly that is the reason why Berlin politics wants BBI: getting rid of Tegel. I think once BBI is in service there is actually no reason at all to keep Tegel. However, it would make sense to keep Tempelhof.

But exactly that is the strategy for BBI: closing down or blocking all competing airports (TXL,THF,Neuhardenberg) to fill a new airport which is not demanded by the market.

BBI will be nice to have, but I don't think that a city which does not know how to pay for the schools and repair the streets should spend several billion Euros for a new Airport.

Greetings from Berlin



Photography - the art of observing, not the art of arranging
User currently offlinePelican From Germany, joined Apr 2004, 2531 posts, RR: 8
Reply 15, posted (9 years 4 months 5 days 6 hours ago) and read 1409 times:

I wouldn't call a capacity of 20 mio pax 'based on dreams'. In 2004 TXL, SXF had 14,3 Mio passengers.
Furthermore financing isn't the biggest issue at the moment. The really big issues are the 'formal errors' during the planning process. Because of this the responsible court could stop BBI or at least delay it for several years.

pelican


User currently offlineCornish From United Kingdom, joined Feb 2005, 8187 posts, RR: 54
Reply 16, posted (9 years 4 months 5 days 6 hours ago) and read 1400 times:

Quoting A350 (Reply 14):
But exactly that is the strategy for BBI: closing down or blocking all competing airports (TXL,THF,Neuhardenberg) to fill a new airport which is not demanded by the market.

BBI will be nice to have, but I don't think that a city which does not know how to pay for the schools and repair the streets should spend several billion Euros for a new Airport.

While I agree with the basic theory of building one new airport for Berlin to replace the existing three, and that traffic can long term expand to meet demand (especially with LCC growth). But I do agree with the point made that as far as I am aware the city of Berlin is broke. This more than any other factor is what is controversial about the new airport.

I think I'm right in saying (perhaps one of our Berlin residents can confirm) that the Lande of Brandenburg refused to pay anything towards the project, leading to Berlin having to fund it all.



Just when I thought I could see light at the end of the tunnel, it was some B*****d with a torch bringing me more work
User currently offlinePelican From Germany, joined Apr 2004, 2531 posts, RR: 8
Reply 17, posted (9 years 4 months 5 days 6 hours ago) and read 1395 times:

Quoting Cornish (Reply 16):

I think I'm right in saying (perhaps one of our Berlin residents can confirm) that the Lande of Brandenburg refused to pay anything towards the project, leading to Berlin having to fund it all.

Being a Brandenburg resident I can assure you this is not true at all. Although the financial state of Brandenburg isn't bright either.
But funding isn't the biggest problem at the moment.

pelican


User currently offlineCornish From United Kingdom, joined Feb 2005, 8187 posts, RR: 54
Reply 18, posted (9 years 4 months 5 days 6 hours ago) and read 1390 times:

Quoting Pelican (Reply 17):
Being a Brandenburg resident I can assure you this is not true at all. Although the financial state of Brandenburg isn't bright either.

Apologies Pelican - I meant to Berlin or B.burg residents. Also my suggestion was that B.burg refused to pay because it couldn't afsord to - not as a criticism.

So where is the funding coming from ? and what were the planning errors you mentioned?



Just when I thought I could see light at the end of the tunnel, it was some B*****d with a torch bringing me more work
User currently offlinePelican From Germany, joined Apr 2004, 2531 posts, RR: 8
Reply 19, posted (9 years 4 months 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 1379 times:

Why do you apologise? I'm not offended, not even a little bit. If you think so because of my reply I will have to improve my English... (I've to do it anyway) or my manners  embarrassed   Wink

Berlin, Brandenburg and "der Bund" -the federal government of Germany will pay the bill together.

One formal error was made during the selection process of the location of BBI. Schönefeld which is the location where BBI will/is be built was not the winner of the selection process. Nonetheless the governments of Berlin and Brandenburg opted for Schönefeld instead of Sperenberg (which won the selection process).
Schönefeld is in contrast to Sperenberg a relative densely populated area.
Hence the opponents of BBI can argue BBI will make a negative impact (noise, exhaust fumes, crash risks) on many people although it wouldn't be necessary. It's not unlikely the court will think so too.

pelican


User currently offlineCornish From United Kingdom, joined Feb 2005, 8187 posts, RR: 54
Reply 20, posted (9 years 4 months 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 1375 times:

Quoting Pelican (Reply 19):
Why do you apologise? I'm not offended, not even a little bit. If you think so because of my reply I will have to improve my English... (I've to do it anyway) or my manners

Nein, nein - dein Englisch ist besserer als mein Deutsch - with its v.poor grammar  Wink

Whereabouts is Sperenberg ? I'm interested as I lived in Berlin for a while some years ago, so i'm curious to where they had planned to build the airport, as I've not heard the name before.



Just when I thought I could see light at the end of the tunnel, it was some B*****d with a torch bringing me more work
User currently offlinePelican From Germany, joined Apr 2004, 2531 posts, RR: 8
Reply 21, posted (9 years 4 months 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 1361 times:

Sperenberg is located in the south of Berlin. The village is 40km away from Berlin.
Near Sperenberg was a secret military area from 1870-1945 where new weapons were tested. It's quiet an interesting location. A nuclear research facility was build during WW2 at this area.
After WW2 the Soviets had occupied the area. They used it as airforce training facility. Now it's a some square kilometer wide deserted area.
The advantage of Sperenberg is - as already stated - the sparsely populated location which would allow 24/7 operations without restrictions. The disadvantage is the distance between Berlin and Sperenberg which would increase the costs of an Autobahn connection. The railway track Berlin-Dresden is not far away.

pelican

[Edited 2005-03-21 16:42:38]

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