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China Southern Asking For Routes To Argentina  
User currently offlineArgentina From Argentina, joined Aug 2000, 374 posts, RR: 12
Posted (9 years 9 months 1 week 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 5516 times:

According to Argentinian newspapers today, China Southern executives are in Argentina discussing with local authorities the bilateral agreement between Argentina and China. The executives expressed the interest of China Southern to fly to Argentina soon.

No data regarding dates, routes and aircraft.

Saludos desde Buenos Aires

41 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineEddieDude From Mexico, joined Nov 2003, 7633 posts, RR: 42
Reply 1, posted (9 years 9 months 1 week 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 5497 times:

Wow, interesting news. I wonder where they would stop en route if this ever happens. It will be interesting to read in Monday's papers if there are more concrete news or announcements.


Next flights: MEX-GRU (AM 77E), GRU-GIG (JJ A320), SDU-CGH (G3 73H), GRU-MEX (JJ A332).
User currently offlineKtachiya From Japan, joined Sep 2004, 1805 posts, RR: 2
Reply 2, posted (9 years 9 months 1 week 1 day ago) and read 5457 times:

Yes, I was wondering the same thing as EddieDude.

If they get the 5th freedom rights, then they should look at some destination with a large Chinese population (living there) shouldn't they? I don't know if they are thinking about the states but I know that there are many travelers who avoid it because it means stopping over in the states. (Some security issue discussed in Japan often).

I wonder if they can stop in YYZ?



Flown on: DC-10-30, B747-200B, B747-300, B747-300SR, B747-400, B747-400D, B767-300, B777-200, B777-200ER, B777-300
User currently offline6thfreedom From Bermuda, joined Sep 2004, 3339 posts, RR: 20
Reply 3, posted (9 years 9 months 1 week 1 day ago) and read 5442 times:

don't forget us down under.

I think you will find that operating Guangzhou-BA via Sydney, Auckland or Melbourne is faster than via North America.

And if my memory serves me correct, AR and CZ could interline quite easily over SYD right now.

CZ arrives SYD 09.30, departs 10.50am
AR arrives around 7.30 and departs around 10.30am

VERY EASY!



User currently offlineKtachiya From Japan, joined Sep 2004, 1805 posts, RR: 2
Reply 4, posted (9 years 9 months 1 week 22 hours ago) and read 5388 times:

Yes, on the other hand, SYD or BNE can be good places to stop-over.

I forgot the site of the Great Circle Mapper so I can't do that search right now.... But Australia is so far from anywhere. I know that the earth is round and everything but HKG-SYD takes just about the same time as KIX-SYD which just suprised me when I flew on these routes a few years ago.



Flown on: DC-10-30, B747-200B, B747-300, B747-300SR, B747-400, B747-400D, B767-300, B777-200, B777-200ER, B777-300
User currently offlineKEno From Malaysia, joined Feb 2004, 1842 posts, RR: 27
Reply 5, posted (9 years 9 months 1 week 22 hours ago) and read 5373 times:

From Great Circle Mapper (all in nautical miles) :-

can-jnb-eze 10148
can-syd-eze 10419
can-akl-eze 10563
can-mad-eze 11045
can-lhr-eze 11136
can-jfk-eze 11543
can-yyz-eze 11563
can-lax-eze 11598
can-yvr-eze 11612

Seems like the shortest stopover point is JNB followed by SYD. Going via Europe wouldn't be a bad idea either.

For comparison, flying MH on CAN-KUL-JNB-CPT-EZE is 10410 nm, which is almost exactly as CAN-SYD-EZE.

CZ 365
dep CAN 1900
arr KUL 2240

or

MH 377
dep CAN 1500
arr KUL 1900

< connecting to >

MH 201
dep KUL 0105 +1
arr EZE 1450 +1

Operates Sat & Tue

[Edited 2005-03-20 12:04:10]

User currently offlineYu138086 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 6, posted (9 years 9 months 1 week 18 hours ago) and read 5251 times:

Seems like the recent visit of the Chinese govnt. delegation is opening up doors in the right places. South America definately needs a direct gateway to Asia. It about time. Hopefully it materializes.

User currently offlineAR1300 From Argentina, joined Feb 2005, 1740 posts, RR: 3
Reply 7, posted (9 years 9 months 1 week 14 hours ago) and read 5129 times:

Just read that in Clarin.Marsans also wants to sell AR cause the gov doesn't help or something like that.


Mike.



They don't call us Continental for nothing.
User currently offlineAnxebla From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 8, posted (9 years 9 months 1 week 12 hours ago) and read 5064 times:

AR was thinking fly China via MAD. But like KEno says, it seems via JNB --or CPT-- is shorter than any other way.

AR1300: I don't trust neither Marsans nor G.Pascual. Let's wait and see what happen on the AR subject ...because it's a delicate subject


User currently offlinePPVRA From Brazil, joined Nov 2004, 8976 posts, RR: 39
Reply 9, posted (9 years 9 months 1 week 12 hours ago) and read 5047 times:

A stop in Canada makes sense to me. Maybe Europe.

Quoting Yu138086 (Reply 6):
South America definately needs a direct gateway to Asia. It about time. Hopefully it materializes.

RG flies GRU-LAX-NRT 4X weekly (RG flight to PEK might beggin this July via MUC) and JAL flies NGO-NRT-JFK-GRU 3X weekly.

MH also flies to EZE 2X weekly.

Cheers,

PPVRA



"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
User currently offlineConcordeBoy From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 10, posted (9 years 9 months 1 week 11 hours ago) and read 5003 times:

CZ is an ETOPS-only airline, ergo operating via the S.Pacific is out for them, at the moment.

User currently offline6thfreedom From Bermuda, joined Sep 2004, 3339 posts, RR: 20
Reply 11, posted (9 years 9 months 1 week 10 hours ago) and read 4944 times:

The other point we all need to consider is that an airlines route is most often dictated by uplift rights at the intermediate point, potential 6th freedom traffic, as well as further bilateral considerations. The shortest route is not necessarily the best option, ie saving 1.5-2 hours in flight time is no big deal when looking at the bigger picture.

KEno - good point re: CZ/MH, especially given there move towards SkyTeam. This option would also give CZ an entry to Africa, as well as South AMERICA.


User currently offlineAirbus Lover From Malaysia, joined Apr 2000, 3248 posts, RR: 9
Reply 12, posted (9 years 9 months 1 week 10 hours ago) and read 4928 times:

Going via YVR wouldn't be a bad idea because they already have plans to fly to YVR nonstop from CAN and YVR-EZE, or any Latin America destination for that matter, is a rather sizeable market that has yet been exploited. They will have market catchment beyond EZE not only into YVR, but North America, and I think most importantly to Asia. All these subject to 5th freedom rights which IMHO will definitely be a success if properly done.

User currently offlineYyz717 From Canada, joined Sep 2001, 16367 posts, RR: 56
Reply 13, posted (9 years 9 months 1 week 8 hours ago) and read 4853 times:

I'm surprised there is a market need for China-Argentina service. Does Argentina have a Chinese communiuty (I didn't think so). What is the business basis for this proposed route?


Panam, TWA, Ansett, Eastern.......AC next? Might be good for Canada.
User currently offlineAR1300 From Argentina, joined Feb 2005, 1740 posts, RR: 3
Reply 14, posted (9 years 9 months 1 week 8 hours ago) and read 4837 times:

Quoting Yyz717 (Reply 13):
I'm surprised there is a market need for China-Argentina service. Does Argentina have a Chinese communiuty (I didn't think so). What is the business basis for this proposed route?

you gotta be kidding.We have more chinese here than in china itself....plus all this chinese bussines that has been going around for a while.We are in the China Boom.Everything is ''China''.They buy soy beans n' stuff from us. We are the first in the world in that.Just like in fútbol, simply the best....regardless what anybody else says... Wink

Mike.



They don't call us Continental for nothing.
User currently offlineKEno From Malaysia, joined Feb 2004, 1842 posts, RR: 27
Reply 15, posted (9 years 9 months 1 week 8 hours ago) and read 4827 times:

Quoting AR1300 (Reply 14):
We have more chinese here than in china itself

What???  Wink


User currently offlineAhlfors From Canada, joined Oct 2000, 1347 posts, RR: 4
Reply 16, posted (9 years 9 months 1 week 8 hours ago) and read 4811 times:

Quoting KEno (Reply 15):
.We have more chinese here than in china itself

Wow... more than a billion chinese in argentina... who would have thunk?


User currently offlineAR1300 From Argentina, joined Feb 2005, 1740 posts, RR: 3
Reply 17, posted (9 years 9 months 1 week 7 hours ago) and read 4782 times:

figuratively....


Mike



They don't call us Continental for nothing.
User currently offlineYu138086 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 18, posted (9 years 9 months 1 week 7 hours ago) and read 4773 times:

China has recently decided to invest heavily in Argentina's deteriorating infrastrucure. With the large Chinese demand for Southern Cone agriculture, any direct air link between the countries can only help. These are the main reasons for wanting to open such routes. On the grand sceme of things the trade flow wont be as large as between North America or Europe per se but it will help Argentina nonetheless.

User currently offlineYyz717 From Canada, joined Sep 2001, 16367 posts, RR: 56
Reply 19, posted (9 years 9 months 1 week 7 hours ago) and read 4766 times:

Thanks for the explanation Yu138086. I also presume that Argentina may become a tourist destination for Chinese once links open.


Panam, TWA, Ansett, Eastern.......AC next? Might be good for Canada.
User currently offline6thfreedom From Bermuda, joined Sep 2004, 3339 posts, RR: 20
Reply 20, posted (9 years 9 months 1 week 7 hours ago) and read 4792 times:

http://www.library.ohiou.edu/subjects/shao/databases_popdis.htm

according to this, there are only 30,000 chinese in argentina.
when i was in peru recently i saw an air china B744 at Lima airport.
I would think that a PVG-LIM service would commence prior to CAN-EZE...

FYI - the breakdown for chinese in the america's is....

Antilles (Dutch) 700
Argentina 30,000
Aruba (Dutch) 600
Bahamas (Dutch) 200
Barbados 50
Belize 1,500
Bolivia 12,000
Brazil 100,000
Canada 910,000
Chile 5,000
Colombia 7,000
Costa Rica 63,000
Cuba 6,000
Curacao (Dutch) 600
Dominican Republic 15,000
Ecuador 20,000
El Salvador 1,500
Guatemala 14,000
Guiana (France) 600
Guyana 20,000
Haiti 200
Honduras 1,500
Jamaica 25,000
Mexico 30,000
Nicaragua 3,000
Panama 150,000
Paraguay 10,000
Peru 60,000
Suriname 13,000
Trinidad and Tobago 20,000
Venezuela 50,000
United States 2,000,000
Uruguay 300


User currently offlineMarambio From UK - Scotland, joined Oct 2004, 1162 posts, RR: 25
Reply 21, posted (9 years 9 months 1 week 7 hours ago) and read 4764 times:

Argentina certainly has a respectable Chinese community, but this one does not really deserve a direct aircraft service to China.

The Chinese community in Argentina owns small shops and supermarkets, and belong to the lower middle class, i.e. they mainly travel to see their relatives back home. Also the majority of them come from Taiwan.

There are no big Chinese investments in Argentina besides YCF (Yacimientos Carboníferos Fiscales), the former state-owned, coal-extracting company based at the lost town of Río Turbio, Santa Cruz, in deep Patagonia.

Argentina in general and Buenos Aires in particular enjoy acceptable connections to the Far East through Kuala Lumpur with Malaysia Airlines, and to Japan with Varig via Sao Paulo. Our very own Aerolíneas Argentinas flies to Australia and New Zealand, from where one can catch good flights to Asia.

This said, I strongly believe that should this CZ flight ever materialize, it would have lots to do with the current relationships between both countries. Argentina is one of the world's biggest soja producers, and China desperately needs to buy that soja to feed its one billion citizens' stomachs.

Both Aerolíneas Argentinas and state-owned Líneas Aéreas del Estado (Lade) got rights for flying to Beijing and Shanghai, the latter being only allowed to transport freight on its 707s. There have been rumours about Air Plus Comet starting operations in China, and codesharing with AR on that flight. Let's remember both Air Plus Comet and Aerolíneas are (so far) owned by the Spanish group Marsans.

Flying via Johannesburg wouldn't make any sense. The market is very small and Malaysia already has the rights from both Jo'burg and Cape Town to Buenos Aires. Also South African Airways flies to Sao Paulo with its state-of-the-art A340-600, and passengers can fly to from Guarulhos to Buenos Aires with codeshare partner Varig.

The European route might be interesting, should they pick an unserved city from both countries. Milan for instance comes to my mind, especially with the very srong ties that link Argentina and Italy. Alitalia flies MXP-EZE four times weekly, which means they could try their luck on the three other vacant days.

I remain very skeptical about Australia. Like South Africa, the market is very well served by Aerolíneas from Buenos Aires and by LAN from Santiago de Chile. Both airlines offer a plethora of connections from their hubs, mainly regional but also to the USA and Europe.

Nonetheless, since the whole idea of flying from China to Argentina is completely crazy, no route for this flight would surprise me.

Saludos,
Marambio

[Edited 2005-03-21 03:08:43]


Aerolíneas Argentinas - La Argentina que levanta vuelo
User currently offlineKtachiya From Japan, joined Sep 2004, 1805 posts, RR: 2
Reply 22, posted (9 years 9 months 1 week 6 hours ago) and read 4736 times:

Quoting ConcordeBoy (Reply 10):
CZ is an ETOPS-only airline, ergo operating via the S.Pacific is out for them, at the moment

Then I think this is very likely

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 9):
A stop in Canada makes sense to me

Canada has a large Chinese populations like in YYZ. If they do this, they can compete with AC taking away its monopoly I guess.


 dollarsign 

Then prices on this route by AC will go down; I guess?



Flown on: DC-10-30, B747-200B, B747-300, B747-300SR, B747-400, B747-400D, B767-300, B777-200, B777-200ER, B777-300
User currently offlineIncitatus From Brazil, joined Feb 2005, 4068 posts, RR: 13
Reply 23, posted (9 years 9 months 1 week 6 hours ago) and read 4727 times:

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 9):
RG flies GRU-LAX-NRT 4X weekly (RG flight to PEK might beggin this July via MUC) and JAL flies NGO-NRT-JFK-GRU 3X weekly.

With the economy growing in Brazil, Varig is making a big mistake by keeping the frequency to Japan at less than daily.



Stop pop up ads
User currently offlinePPVRA From Brazil, joined Nov 2004, 8976 posts, RR: 39
Reply 24, posted (9 years 9 months 1 week 5 hours ago) and read 4682 times:

Quoting Incitatus (Reply 23):
With the economy growing in Brazil, Varig is making a big mistake by keeping the frequency to Japan at less than daily.

Agree 100%.

Also, KE is currently looking for a someone to represent them in S. Paulo, so hopefully they will resume operations down here soon. Or better yet, we could fly there, but you know how that goes with the current situation...


View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Carlos A. Morillo Doria



Cheers,

PPVRA



"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
25 Post contains images CXoneWorld : Yeah! This could be ONE exciting development for CZ. However, I am also under the impression that most bilateral rights awarded to Chinese carriers en
26 Arcano : Actually I think it's gonna be Brazil the one taking the most of Chinese money (as well as Spanish). Although it would be great to link the Southern
27 Marambio : The Chinese from Belgrano, where there's our small Chinatown, come from Taiwan. You can see it all over the place, with the "Universal Evangelist Chu
28 B742 : I would love too see China Southern operate: CAN-JFK/EWR-EZE or CAN-LHR-EZE I could see this as a very profitable routes! Rob!
29 AR1300 : Well,Marambio, now you know.... Mike.
30 Post contains images Renton_WA : We should know better than to jump to conclusions. China Southern asked for rights to fly to Argentina, from what I read, that's all that was stated.
31 Post contains images Marambio : What do I know now? No offense, but I don't believe that your almacenero de la esquina is a very reliable source. I have spoken with people who are i
32 LVZXV : I think Argentina's Korean community is >30,000, but again, hard working though they are, most live below the poverty line and their journeys from Kor
33 Post contains images AR1300 : Well, now I know... Mike.
34 The777Man : From an operational standpoint, it makes sense to route the flight via LAX since China Southern (CZ) already has a presence there. Also, there are no
35 Lehpron : Sorry if off topic, is China outsourcing its jobs to Argentina? Then the market for travel would be giant. I do mean to insue: Does anyone not see th
36 ConcordeBoy : Be sweet if they/that would encourage JJ to make a jump to SkyTeam.
37 Arrow : "Any new service to South America by a Chinese carrier would make sense to go thru LAX." YVR is working very hard to line up this kind of Asia to Sout
38 CXYYZ : I don't think CZ would fly through YYZ or YVR as their first choice, especially not from CAN. In both Vancouver and Toronto, the Chinese population is
39 PPVRA : What you guys think of China-MEX-EZE? There are/were plans to either MX or a Chinese airline to fly to MEX some time ago, think they are still on plan
40 Ar1300 : No it wouldn't.They usually come thru some sort of arrengememt with the mafia, so they don't pay a lot, and usually come pennyless.As Marambio said,
41 Chinaeastern : let's not forget chinese passport holders are strickly bound by transiting visas world wide, if CZ starts EZE, SYD/MEL should be ideal points as austr
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