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Extra Frequencies On Singapore Airlines To London?  
User currently offlineAirtropolis From Singapore, joined Apr 2000, 142 posts, RR: 0
Posted (9 years 5 months 1 week 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 4677 times:

As many on the board would know, SIN-LHR is one of SQ's most profitable if not the most profitable route on its network. Every now and then we hear that extra frequencies are due (especially a 4th daily frequency), but thus far the news has not translated to actual flights. I read recently on 2 separate forums that:
1. SQ are looking to operate to London Gatwick in view of the difficulty in obtaining slots at London Heathrow. (Flyertalk)
2. SQ have indeed decided to operate a 4th daily frequency to LHR with a B777-200ER. (Sydney Airport Message Board)
Does anyone on the board have anything further to add or any inside information, would love to hear.
Airtropolis

20 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlineHB-IWC From Indonesia, joined Sep 2000, 4503 posts, RR: 72
Reply 1, posted (9 years 5 months 1 week 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 4623 times:

Singapore Airlines in interested in operating additional SIN-LON overnight flights. The airline currently operates just one such flight, and that particular flight has been operating with a 95%+ loadfactor year round, making it a more lucrative flight than SQ's two other LHR operations, which operate as daylight flights from SIN. The midnight flight (SQ323) is expected to become one of the first flights to switch to the new A380 as is comes online in 2006/2007.

The problem with obtaining additional slots is not only that we're talking here about London Heathrow, where extra slots are few and far between, but that an overnight flight from SIN would involve early morning landing slots at Heathrow, which are virtually impossible to pick up.

In order to overcome this dilemma, SQ has been looking at several scenarios. One option is to pursue Heathrow slots at other times, involving yet another daylight flight from Singapore. Another option would be to try and obtain Gatwick slots for an overnight flight from Singapore. Neither would be an optimal solution, but there's no other options for the time being. It must be kind of hard for SQ to see BA and QF operating all these overnight flights from its own home turf of SIN, while SQ itself can't get its hands on other slots. Also CX is gifted with 3 early morning arrival slots at Heathrow.


User currently offlineAF022 From France, joined Dec 2003, 2159 posts, RR: 1
Reply 2, posted (9 years 5 months 1 week 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 4602 times:

i don't understand why there are not more slots open in the early morning. there are arrivals as early as 0445, but few and far between until 0700.

why do people who live LHR have so much sway in noise issues? if you move near an airport, you cannot complain about airplane noise.

will new quieter aircraft get "points" for an early morning arrival? perhaps a 7E7 would be quiet enough to warrant squeezing in an extra arrival?


User currently offlineCornish From United Kingdom, joined Feb 2005, 8187 posts, RR: 54
Reply 3, posted (9 years 5 months 1 week 5 days 20 hours ago) and read 4462 times:

Quoting AF022 (Reply 2):
why do people who live LHR have so much sway in noise issues? if you move near an airport, you cannot complain about airplane noise.

The problem is the approach from the east into LHR takes you across most of LON. Its not just a few people nearby, its a large proportion of the city.



Just when I thought I could see light at the end of the tunnel, it was some B*****d with a torch bringing me more work
User currently offlineBehramjee From Canada, joined Aug 2003, 4772 posts, RR: 43
Reply 4, posted (9 years 5 months 1 week 5 days 19 hours ago) and read 4412 times:

Well then SQ should seriously look at serving LGW if it feels that early morning slots at London are very lucurative. LGW gets a decent Star Alliance feed and many people in London who live in the LGW surrounding area headed to Asia and Australia would like this move by SQ.

Initially a daily B 777-200ER should be deployed on the SIN-LGW-SIN route to test the market's response and based upon that increase capacity to daily B 744 service.


User currently offlineScbriml From United Kingdom, joined Jul 2003, 12497 posts, RR: 46
Reply 5, posted (9 years 5 months 1 week 5 days 19 hours ago) and read 4386 times:
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Quoting AF022 (Reply 2):
if you move near an airport, you cannot complain about airplane noise.

Only a small % of the population that live near LHR have actually moved there. Many of us grew up near there when it was nowhere near so busy.



Time flies like an arrow, but fruit flies like a banana!
User currently offlineFeroze From India, joined Dec 2004, 794 posts, RR: 3
Reply 6, posted (9 years 5 months 1 week 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 4213 times:

Quoting AF022 (Reply 2):
i don't understand why there are not more slots open in the early morning. there are arrivals as early as 0445, but few and far between until 0700.

From BAA:

The most recent restrictions were introduced in October 1999 and consist of three main elements as follows:
A maximum number of flights during each season (3250 in summer and 2550 in winter) between 11.30pm and 6.00am;

A supplementary quota system to encourage the use of quieter aircraft. Aircraft types are given a Quota Count (QC) value, according to how much noise they make on landing and take-off, of QC 0.5, QC1, QC2, QC4, QC8 or QC16, the noisiest category being QC16. Aircraft movements score these QC values against a maximum allowable Quota for each season (5610 for summer and 4140 for winter) between 11:30pm and 6am, "the night quota period".

Aircraft of QC16 and QC 8 cannot be scheduled to operate between 11pm and 7am.

Normally there are no scheduled departures between 11.30pm and 6.30am. There is only one scheduled arrival after 11.30pm which is a mail flight, until the early morning arrivals which make up most of the night flights. The first is scheduled at around 4.55am but they can arrive earlier. Occasionally, aircraft operate after 11.30pm because they have been delayed, eg due to bad weather, or they are small, quieter aircraft which are therefore exempt from the restrictions eg medical flights.


Thus, there is a cap on flights arriving before 6am.

Regards,

Feroze


User currently offlineAirtropolis From Singapore, joined Apr 2000, 142 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (9 years 5 months 1 week 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 4056 times:

Feroze has brought up a very good point. As far as I can recall, one of the main issues SQ had before deciding to place an order for the A380, was that the Rolls Royce engines had to exceed London Heathrow's stringent noise requirements. I wonder if the new aircraft will give SQ any advantage in obtaining those early morning slots at LHR?
Still I hope to hear from any insiders out there about any plans SQ have for extra services to London, I am sure that there is demand to justify the extra flights whether they are to Heathrow or even to Gatwick. After all, airlines less established on the London route than SQ, such as Emirates and Qatar as well as Etihad, have managed to grow their LHR services and have even augmented these with services to Gatwick. In addition, I wonder if any on the board will recall that Heathrow was once virtually closed to new entrants about over a decade ago, with many airlines now considered established at Heathrow, such as Cathay Pacific and Malaysian Airlines operating to Gatwick instead


User currently offlineAF022 From France, joined Dec 2003, 2159 posts, RR: 1
Reply 8, posted (9 years 5 months 1 week 5 days 3 hours ago) and read 4022 times:

is there anyway to determine if a carrier started operating with a super quiet aircraft (B787?) that they would be able to land an early morning slot?

is there any formulation to determine which aircraft are equal to which "QC" value?


User currently offlineZvezda From Lithuania, joined Aug 2004, 10511 posts, RR: 64
Reply 9, posted (9 years 5 months 1 week 5 days 2 hours ago) and read 3991 times:

Quoting Scbriml (Reply 5):
Only a small % of the population that live near LHR have actually moved there. Many of us grew up near there when it was nowhere near so busy.

Aircraft were much louder then.


User currently offlineAF022 From France, joined Dec 2003, 2159 posts, RR: 1
Reply 10, posted (9 years 5 months 1 week 5 days 2 hours ago) and read 3985 times:

is there a way to determine which aircraft types qualify for which "QC" rating?

User currently offlineLutfi From China, joined Sep 2000, 774 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (9 years 5 months 1 week 5 days ago) and read 3944 times:

CX have two early AM slots on a daily basis, plus a D7 early AM freighter slot. The other daily arrival is at 2015

They weren't gifted them - the price to pay was a very long ground time to the departing flights (1800 and 2200) Ground time has improved a bit now there are 3 flights a day. CX now does A checks in LHR to try and make sure the downtime is not a complete waste

Guess it was SQ's choice, back in the day there were slots available, to balance o/night flights vs inefficient ground time (CX added the second daily midnight flight about 8 years ago, and only added a daylight flight relatively recently)


User currently offlineJetWay From India, joined Mar 2005, 49 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (9 years 5 months 1 week 5 days ago) and read 3930 times:

The introduction of the A380 on the SIN-LHR route will ease the pressure on SQ for adding more frquencies to LHR. But I am not sure whether the first SQ A380 will be used on this sector. Guys please comment.

User currently offlineSydscott From Australia, joined Oct 2003, 3018 posts, RR: 20
Reply 13, posted (9 years 5 months 1 week 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 3890 times:

Quoting JetWay (Reply 12):
But I am not sure whether the first SQ A380 will be used on this sector. Guys please comment.

I would think London and Sydney would be the first 2 cities to see SQ A380 scheduled service.


User currently offlineEx_SQer From United States of America, joined Apr 2002, 1436 posts, RR: 5
Reply 14, posted (9 years 5 months 1 week 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 3872 times:

When did Singapore get those extra rights for a fourth daily service to London?

User currently offlineBehramjee From Canada, joined Aug 2003, 4772 posts, RR: 43
Reply 15, posted (9 years 5 months 1 week 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 3862 times:

Quoting Sydscott (Reply 13):

I would think London and Sydney would be the first 2 cities to see SQ A380 scheduled service.

I recall someone saying on this website that SQ plan on using the same A 380 plane to fly LHR-SIN-SYD on a daily basis. But for that to happen, you need 4 A 380s in your fleet for a daily service to both cities on a same plane basis. So initially you will probably see LHR and SYD having 3-4 weekly A 380 services with same aircraft.


User currently offlineZvezda From Lithuania, joined Aug 2004, 10511 posts, RR: 64
Reply 16, posted (9 years 5 months 1 week 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 3773 times:

Quoting Behramjee (Reply 15):
I recall someone saying on this website that SQ plan on using the same A 380 plane to fly LHR-SIN-SYD on a daily basis. But for that to happen, you need 4 A 380s in your fleet for a daily service to both cities on a same plane basis.

Actually, 3 aircraft suffice.

Quoting Behramjee (Reply 15):
So initially you will probably see LHR and SYD having 3-4 weekly A 380 services with same aircraft.

I suspect initially SQ will put their first two A380s on SQ317/SQ322 daily.


User currently offlineTimRees From United Kingdom, joined Aug 2001, 354 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (9 years 5 months 1 week 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 3695 times:

Quoting Airtropolis (Reply 7):



Quoting Airtropolis (Reply 7):
I wonder if any on the board will recall that Heathrow was once virtually closed to new entrants about over a decade ago, with many airlines now considered established at Heathrow, such as Cathay Pacific and Malaysian Airlines operating to Gatwick instead

Don't think Malaysia ever operated into LGW. I can remember (just) Malaysia-Singapore Airlines 707's operating into LHR. The airline subsequently became SIA and MAS and they both operated into LHR. You're right in saying Cathay used to operate into LGW as did Air New Zealand, Air Seychelles, Air China, All Nippon, and there have been a few that moved to LHR then stopped services such as Avianca and Air Namibia. Others have gone the other way such as Adria, Lithuanian Airlines. This list is far from complete however.


User currently offlineAirtropolis From Singapore, joined Apr 2000, 142 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (9 years 5 months 1 week 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 3637 times:

Replying to Tim Rees' post, when MSA split into SIA and MAS, only SIA flew to LHR as MAS concentrated on domestic routes generally in its initial years. MAS only flew to London in the early 1980s, initially I believe to Gatwick. Here is a link to a photo on the board showing a MAS DC10 at Gatwick. If you look hard, you'll see a CX 747 in old livery as well : www.airliners.net/open.file/199446/M/

User currently offlineEx_SQer From United States of America, joined Apr 2002, 1436 posts, RR: 5
Reply 19, posted (9 years 5 months 1 week 3 days 22 hours ago) and read 3553 times:

AFAIK SQ hasn't yet obtained the rights to operate a fourth daily service to London, so this thread is moot anyway.

For those who are interested, when SQ won the rights for its third service, they briefly flirted with the thought of operating into LGW when they could not obtain morning landing slots into LHR. They decided in the end to operate the flight as a daylight service into LHR, and it was timed such that connections could be made from the redeye services from MEL, PER and BNE.

[Edited 2005-03-23 08:29:36]

User currently offlineTimRees From United Kingdom, joined Aug 2001, 354 posts, RR: 0
Reply 20, posted (9 years 5 months 1 week 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 3456 times:

Quoting Airtropolis (Reply 18):
MAS only flew to London in the early 1980s, initially I believe to Gatwick.

Are you sure?

I saw the following 70's at LHR...they were VERY regular...operating flights MH1/2...

9M-ASO 12th August 1975
9M-MCR 5th August 1977
9M-MCS 8th August 1977

The DC10's followed.
9M-MAT 17th July 1978
9M-MAS 13th August 1979

Then the 742's (ex BAW ntu)
9M-MHI 25th April 1982
9M-MHJ 16th July 1982

Could the DC10 in the picture you found visiting LGW have been operating a charter?


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