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Southwest Has Charlotte In It's Sights  
User currently offlineCasInterest From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 4432 posts, RR: 2
Posted (9 years 3 months 3 weeks 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 5699 times:

News article

Herb visited Charlotte for a Homeland security meeting but made some pretty interesting statements.
Although not really new, it definately presents itself as opening up the realm of Charlotte being the next city that Southwest moves into. Provided they can get the slot I could see this as being the definative death blow to US Airways.

Any idea on how long it may take Southwest to move in considering new plane deliveries and Pittsburgh startup?


Older than I just was ,and younger than I will soo be.
61 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineQwerty From United States of America, joined Mar 2001, 383 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (9 years 3 months 3 weeks 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 5666 times:

IMO, they'd be better off heading to Columbia, S.C. first.

With Lake Norman, etc. there is a lot of population that lives North of Charlotte and closer to striking distance of GSO. So maybe heading into GSO to surround CLT might be smart.

GSO and CLT seem a lot like DAY and CVG to me.


User currently offlineATLhomeCMH From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 770 posts, RR: 3
Reply 2, posted (9 years 3 months 3 weeks 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 5652 times:

Quite frankly, US' deathblow was dealt long ago and their safety net of creditors will give out eventually...I wouldn't say that WN moving into Charlotte would be a "deathblow," but it wouldn't be good...that's for sure.

A good way for WN to hurt US by doing this would be to offer service from CLT on routes to cities/regions where US typically had a pretty solid presence...i.e., CLT-PHL, CLT-BWI (Washington area), Florida destinations, the Northeast.

Give people lower fare options, and they'll want to save money, local airline loyalties be damned.

...edited for spelling errors b/c i type fast...

[Edited 2005-03-23 20:41:07]


"The most terrifying words in the Engligh language are, 'I'm from the government and I'm here to help.'"-Ronald Reagan
User currently offlineSlider From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 6774 posts, RR: 35
Reply 3, posted (9 years 3 months 3 weeks 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 5636 times:

Vultures only circle over dead or dying carrion, not the living.

User currently offlineCasInterest From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 4432 posts, RR: 2
Reply 4, posted (9 years 3 months 3 weeks 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 5627 times:

Quoting Qwerty (Reply 1):
IMO, they'd be better off heading to Columbia, S.C. first.

I think Greenville/Spartenburg would be better. Split some Atlanta and Charlotte traffic, As for GSO I still think it is too close to RDU.

Quoting ATLhomeCMH (Reply 2):
A good way for WN to hurt US by doing this would be to offer service from CLT on routes to cities/regions where US typically had a pretty solid presence...i.e., CLT-PHL, CLT-BWI (Washington area), Florida destinations, the Northeast.

I wonder though if Southwest may back off charlotte a bit and see what develops with AirTran. Airtran may do the job that Southwest wants done.



Older than I just was ,and younger than I will soo be.
User currently offlineGarnetpalmetto From United States of America, joined Oct 2003, 5345 posts, RR: 53
Reply 5, posted (9 years 3 months 3 weeks 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 5596 times:

Quoting CasInterest (Reply 4):
I think Greenville/Spartenburg would be better.

Not to sound like a homer, but I think there'd be more demand to traffic for CAE due to Fort Jackson, USC, Benedict, Allen, Columbia College, and the National Advocacy Center. While we do have DH, there's a fairly strong sentiment that WN would be a nice addition.



South Carolina - too small to be its own country, too big to be a mental asylum.
User currently offlineDoninfc From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 135 posts, RR: 2
Reply 6, posted (9 years 3 months 3 weeks 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 5525 times:

If and when US closes up shop, there will be a tremendous hole left in the CLT market. Initially, there will only be a hand full of flights to major hubs to service a local population of almost 2 million. The remaining carriers will be scrambling with limited resources to add service. It would serve WN well to get their foot in the door now, like they've done in PIT, to take maximum advantage when the inevitable happens. The potential rewards at CLT far out weigh what can be had at GSO, GSP or CAE.

User currently offlineStlgph From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 9266 posts, RR: 25
Reply 7, posted (9 years 3 months 3 weeks 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 5454 times:

Quoting Doninfc (Reply 6):
If and when US closes up shop, there will be a tremendous hole left in the CLT market. Initially, there will only be a hand full of flights to major hubs to service a local population of almost 2 million. The remaining carriers will be scrambling with limited resources to add service. It would serve WN well to get their foot in the door now, like they've done in PIT, to take maximum advantage when the inevitable happens. The potential rewards at CLT far out weigh what can be had at GSO, GSP or CAE.

Yes but even Southwest can't jump on an entire airline's route network like that. They are going to have to make a choice. Philadelphia, Pittsburgh, Charlotte, or Washington National.

Since Southwest doesn't service Washington National, it looks likely other airlines could apply for all the slots they could get out of there. Of course, with Southwest's backing, ATA could leave Chicago Midway and Indianapolis all but entirely and move in on those slots if they could get them.
Their best best ultimately is to get as much as Philadelphia as they can. That's 8 million plus as compared to Charlotte with 2 million, and with close neighbors airport-wise.

Also, it's an interesting choice for Charlotte officials to make. Keep Southwest out and bank on the US Airways hub for selfish economic reasons, or take a chance and lobby for a gamble on Southwest to provide you with something like 2 nonstops a day to Orlando and Tampa serving as a stop over point for somewhere like....Albany.



Eternal darkness we all should dread. It's hard to party when you're dead.
User currently offlinePanAm330 From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 2669 posts, RR: 9
Reply 8, posted (9 years 3 months 3 weeks 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 5447 times:

Quoting CasInterest (Reply 4):
I wonder though if Southwest may back off charlotte a bit and see what develops with AirTran. Airtran may do the job that Southwest wants done.

And have AirTran take potential profits? I hardly think they're going into these markets just to see US Airways fold. They want the money- Herbie and the top brass know exactly where the money is, and that's where US Airways has it's two hubs. The only problem in regards to profitability for US is their cost structure. WN can flourish even more at the PHL and CLT hubs, as well as PIT.


User currently offlineDoninfc From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 135 posts, RR: 2
Reply 9, posted (9 years 3 months 3 weeks 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 5304 times:

stlgph: I pretty much agree with everything you said, but I wasn't thinking in terms of WN taking over US's entire route structure at CLT. More like 30-40 flights a day to some key point-to-point destinations like BWI/PHL/MDW/MCO/TPA and LAS/PHX for connecting opportunities. That would certainly help take up some of the slack and fill a lot of seats.

User currently offlineSTLGph From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 9266 posts, RR: 25
Reply 10, posted (9 years 3 months 3 weeks 2 days ago) and read 5270 times:

Quoting Doninfc (Reply 9):
stlgph: I pretty much agree with everything you said, but I wasn't thinking in terms of WN taking over US's entire route structure at CLT. More like 30-40 flights a day to some key point-to-point destinations like BWI/PHL/MDW/MCO/TPA and LAS/PHX for connecting opportunities. That would certainly help take up some of the slack and fill a lot of seats.

Don-

I hear you on your point entirely. They could probably follow my example of running flights from the north (Pittsburgh, Hartford, Albany, Providence, Manchester, Cleveland, etc.) and have them stop on the way to Ft. Lauderdale, Orlando, Tampa, New Orleans, and Houston. They could extend Phoenix and Las Vegas to Little Rock, Oklahoma City, or Tulsa out to Charlotte, or start in Charlotte and stop in either one of those three latter cities on the way out to say even Los Angeles or San Francisco. Starting with just one flight a day to from these points that's 15 flights a day you've got there already before you start even running to Chicago, Kansas City, etc.

It's probably very possible to fit in Charlotte as a stop along the way and pick up some great business. Classic Southwest strategy. But at the same time, it would still require a taking of planes here and there from the routes they are concentrating on their point to point focus they've been developing.



Eternal darkness we all should dread. It's hard to party when you're dead.
User currently offlineGsoflyer From United States of America, joined May 2001, 1093 posts, RR: 1
Reply 11, posted (9 years 3 months 3 weeks 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 5019 times:

Remember, like Richmond, Southwest has promised GSO.

User currently offlineGsoflyer From United States of America, joined May 2001, 1093 posts, RR: 1
Reply 12, posted (9 years 3 months 3 weeks 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 5004 times:

"The potential rewards at CLT far out weigh what can be had at GSO, GSP or CAE."

I am not sure about that. The polutation base in CLT is really not significantly bigger than GSO. There are more white collar jobs but just about equal in blue colalr jobs. Both have banking centers as well as centers for other industry.

With CLT you can serve other small areas like GSP, AVL and CAE easily and would maybe split GSO with RDU. With GSO you could draw from CLT, AVL and ROA along with western NC and Western VA where there are a ton of private schools and students who fly out a lot.

Who knows, it seems like a draw to me. The one things about GSO is that there are soon going to be plenty of available gates as well as GSO has the lowest landing fees in the South right now.


User currently offlineERJ170 From United States of America, joined Apr 2004, 6748 posts, RR: 18
Reply 13, posted (9 years 3 months 3 weeks 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 4969 times:

Quoting Gsoflyer (Reply 12):
The one things about GSO is that there are soon going to be plenty of available gates as well as GSO has the lowest landing fees in the South right now.

What is the landing fees at GSO? Are they tacking on added passenger fees for the concourse addition or are they adding it to the airlines?



Aiming High and going far..
User currently offlineDAYflyer From United States of America, joined Sep 2004, 3807 posts, RR: 3
Reply 14, posted (9 years 3 months 3 weeks 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 4927 times:

Quoting Stlgph (Reply 7):
Yes but even Southwest can't jump on an entire airline's route network like that. They are going to have to make a choice. Philadelphia, Pittsburgh, Charlotte, or Washington National.

Charlotte would likely then be the choice since PIT is not that great of a market. They would need it to keep the likes of Airtran from swallowing up the entire SE USA if US closes up.



One Nation Under God
User currently offlineDAYflyer From United States of America, joined Sep 2004, 3807 posts, RR: 3
Reply 15, posted (9 years 3 months 3 weeks 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 4890 times:

Quoting Gsoflyer (Reply 12):
Who knows, it seems like a draw to me. The one things about GSO is that there are soon going to be plenty of available gates as well as GSO has the lowest landing fees in the South right now.

GSO Sounds like a good opportunity, but CLT is the largest city between Washington and Atlanta and has better per capita incomes, a larger industrial base and better high-tech opportunities. This is where Peidmont grew up to become a pretty powerful little airline before US gobbled them up.

I bet if Airtran or SouthWest could move in there, the fares would plummet overnight, driving US to it's final resting place in the history pages of defunct carriers. For this very reason SouthWest will go into CLT with a vengence if afforded the chance. Plus, they need a better southeast hub presence to be a big thorn in Airtran's side. It would also spoil the dream of FL to be the next EA.



One Nation Under God
User currently offlineGsoflyer From United States of America, joined May 2001, 1093 posts, RR: 1
Reply 16, posted (9 years 3 months 3 weeks 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 4860 times:

Quoting ERJ170 (Reply 13):
What is the landing fees at GSO? Are they tacking on added passenger fees for the concourse addition or are they adding it to the airlines?

I am not sure. I talked to someone at the airport three weeks ago when I flew out. Apparently the FAA, NC DOT and Greensboro/High Point fund pretty much everything there without piggy backing extra fees on to the customers.

Charlotte being the largest area between Washington and Atlanta is true. But looking at the south as a whole, outside of Florida. Atlanta, Norfolk, Raleigh, Greensboro, Charlotte and Nashville are the largest areas by far. Greensboro is by far the underserved airport of all the majors in the South.


User currently offlineCltguy From United States of America, joined Sep 2004, 598 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (9 years 3 months 3 weeks 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 4834 times:

Logistics question:

Just about all 85 Gates at CLT are used....where would SWA go?

Certainly not Concourse A,B,C, or E. There is some gate availability in D...but those are all designed for International use. I am sure the airport charges more for those gates since they have added security and FIS.

So those in the know...where would they go?


User currently offlineERJ170 From United States of America, joined Apr 2004, 6748 posts, RR: 18
Reply 18, posted (9 years 3 months 3 weeks 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 4822 times:

I think there is something else to think about.. with the way US Airways has itself set up now..

Southwest will not only be trying to invade US Airways, but also Air Wisconsin, Republic, and possibly Mesa.. so, with all those players on their side, will the US Group be able to defend their turf and keep WN out.. will CLT look at US as a good investment to keep WN out.. or will WN be able to come in and cause some drama..



Aiming High and going far..
User currently offlineCltguy From United States of America, joined Sep 2004, 598 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (9 years 3 months 3 weeks 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 4802 times:

ERJ170....you got it backwards..

US is investing in CLT....CLT is not investing in US.

If SWA wants to invest in CLT...then we welcome them with welcome arms...just got to figure out where the hell to put everybody.


User currently offlineERJ170 From United States of America, joined Apr 2004, 6748 posts, RR: 18
Reply 20, posted (9 years 3 months 3 weeks 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 4793 times:

No.. I got it right.. CLT should be investing in US..

US provides over 14,000+ jobs in the CLT area.. should WN come.. how many jobs will they invest? Ohh.. let's say ~150. Should US goes under, sure.. CLT could get some of it's service back.. but how many of those jobs will be there..

Oh.. I"ll say about 600-1000 total.. CLT would be a hub for NO ONE if US leaves.. CLT would be the same as RDU, SJC, etc.. It won't be a BNA WN city.. It won't be a B6 JFK hub.. it won't be a HP LAS/PHX hub.. a hub brings big business to the airport and the city... CLT and Charlotte would be hella stupid to try and jeopardize that.. sorry, but I think it is CLT/Charlotte who should be investing in US.. and investing heavily.. jobs are hard to come by these days..

And that's all I got to say about that!



Aiming High and going far..
User currently offlineCaptaink From Mexico, joined May 2001, 5109 posts, RR: 12
Reply 21, posted (9 years 3 months 3 weeks 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 4723 times:

What is it with WN and US? They are some serious opportunists CLT isn't that great of O&D is it?

Well business is business, and WN is making some good business decisions. I wish them well. I hope US can fight this.. THey aren't doing to badly ex PHL, but there are enough people to go around there, so a few airlines can coexist just fine.



There is something special about planes....
User currently offlineSonOfACaptain From United States of America, joined May 2004, 1747 posts, RR: 6
Reply 22, posted (9 years 3 months 3 weeks 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 4683 times:

I personally think that WN coming into CLT won't be THAT bad for US. If you think about, US focuses on CLT as a traditional connecting hub. The originating passengers at CLT is limited when compared to the magnitude of the operations there. CLT is also US gateway to the Caribbean, and naturally WN will not be taking away passengers there. So what I expect to see, if WN does decide to go to CLT, is US just matching the fares on the WN routes. Maybe later, we will see the GoFares go on all the routes, but for the near future they will be the response to WN.

-SOAC



Non Illegitimi Carborundum
User currently offlineCltguy From United States of America, joined Sep 2004, 598 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (9 years 3 months 3 weeks 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 4677 times:

USAirways has 6000 jobs at most based in Charlotte.

As of late there have been a number of airlines that have said they are considering making Charlotte a hub if USAirways goes under...among them are America West and Mesa.

Now, CLT does have $400M in cash sitting in the bank....and ERJ is saying that we should invest that money in a bankrupt carrier? That would be the WORST move that CLT could do.


User currently offlineDfwRevolution From United States of America, joined Jan 2010, 957 posts, RR: 51
Reply 24, posted (9 years 3 months 3 weeks 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 4625 times:

Quoting DAYflyer (Reply 15):

I bet if Airtran or SouthWest could move in there, the fares would plummet overnight, driving US to it's final resting place in the history pages of defunct carriers. For this very reason SouthWest will go into CLT with a vengence if afforded the chance

WN has said on the record that it doesn't help their goals to see US collapse. Think about it: Southwest likes to mature a presence at every station. If US were to liquidate, the rush to fill their vacume would mean missed opportunites in crucial markets.

For WN, establishing a station is like pruning a bonsi. Patience equals profit, haste equals waste.


25 Post contains links RDUDDJI : If WN wants CLT, I guarantee you CLT will find gates for them. No airport would willingly pass up getting WN. It would be political suicide. RDU didn'
26 CasInterest : It may not help their goals to see Southwest collapse, but with the moves into Pittsburgh and Philadelphia by US airways, and with Airtran moving int
27 Darrell : Charleston, SC would be a great city for Southwest, especially if Indy bites the dust.
28 Post contains images Nucsh : Not necessarily. US is at a point where that extra little investment could push them back out of Ch.11. IMO - Charlotte and CLT are making a horrible
29 Nucsh : Not really. Just because RDU got desperate dosn't mean CLT will. Hell, CLT isn't even supporting the home team. You're forgetting about the expansive
30 ATLhomeCMH : True, though it remains to be seen which region of the country FL will focus their inevitable expansion...the West or SE. CLT would be a good hub for
31 PHLBOS : While WN may have CLT on its sights (as per the thread title), FL will start serving CLT w/ATL and BWI flights on May 4; which is coincidentally the s
32 Cltguy : " target=_blank>http://recenter.tamu.edu/data/popm/p...0.htm The MSA numbers are not good for this subject. To make myself clear....Raleigh and Durham
33 Gsoflyer : Not true at all. Charlotte, the city itself, is 506,000. The Metropolitan area of 1.6 million contains, Mecklenburg, Iredell, Cabarrus, Union, Anson,
34 RyeFly : If Soutwest wanted five gates at CLT, this would be the time to do it before US emerges from Chapter 11. It will become more difficult for CLT to reje
35 Gsoflyer : No, Raleigh and Durham are in the same Metropolitan statistical area. North Carolina has the following MSAs: Charlotte-Gastonia-Rock Hill Greensboro-
36 Cltguy : Sorry, try again. The Charlotte MSA contains these counties in 2004: Anson, Cabarrus, Gaston, Mecklenburg and Union Counties in NC and York County in
37 Post contains links Cltguy : Once again you are wrong. You don't have to beleive me, just read any of the state's newspapers and you will see that Raleigh and Durham were split.
38 ExFATboy : Rather than using MSAs when considering markets, I like to look at Arbitron's ADIs (Areas of Dominant Influence) or Nielsen's Designated Market Area (
39 Post contains links RyeFly : From Charmeck.org Quick Facts on Charlotte Population: 614,330 Total Square Miles 267.8 Population of Mecklenburg County: 746,427 Population of Charlo
40 TravisNC : Raleigh and Durham were split into two MSAs, however they were rejoined into a CSA (consolidated statistical area). So were Washington and Baltimore a
41 ERJ170 : If I"m not mistaken, those gates are used for LH, US international-international flights, and US international-domesticate/domesticate-international
42 Cltguy : And if CLT had the fares that RDU has...I would be willing to bet it would have the O&D of RDU and GSO combined...if not more. I agree with you that
43 Post contains images Cltguy : Yea! You finally got something right about CLT Starting this summer Mx will be using a D gate as well.
44 Post contains images ERJ170 : Watch it Mr... If CLT was in the same situation as RDU and GSO (meaning not a hub), the number of passengers would probably be something like this..
45 RyeFly : The Lufthansa flight arrives at 2pm and is out at 4:10pm, and in the summer it will be arriving CLT at 3pm and leaving CLT at 5:10pm. It only uses tha
46 Post contains links CasInterest : MeSA Here are the 2003 Metro Areas Look around at the map and you can start to get an idea of the areas the cities can draw from. 1. According to thi
47 Cltguy : I never said that. Go back and read what I actually said. If you do, then will find that we are closer to agreement than you think.
48 RyeFly : I personally believe that if Southwest would rather serve CLT over GSO for several reasons. 1. Having service in CLT would split the triad and give th
49 ATCT : As an avid anti-USAirways man, Goooooo get em southwest! ATCT
50 ScottB : If US Airways were to fail, it's likely that CLT would never be a hub again. In today's U.S. domestic market, there are far too many network hubs chas
51 RyeFly : I don't know...with CLT designed as a hub, centrally located on the southeast coast, one of the lowest cost airports in the country, and far less cong
52 ScottB : CLT is "low-cost" solely because there's so much connecting traffic passing through it. Cut the traffic down by 80% and the costs go way up. PIT's air
53 Cltguy : There was a blurb in the paper today about SWA CEO Herb enjoying himself in Charlotte. That article said that he went to an Irish pub downtown and sto
54 RDUDDJI : ScottB, your outlook is similar to what I presented a few years ago in college. Except, I had SLC instead of IAD on my "waning hubs" list. I think IAD
55 Cltguy : Good to see there is at least one person from the RDU area that knows what they are talking about.
56 Gsoflyer : "Southwest going to GSO would be insane considering that they probably already get a ton of passengers from Greensboro through Raleigh." Southwest goi
57 Gsoflyer : "Sorry, try again. The Charlotte MSA contains these counties in 2004: Anson, Cabarrus, Gaston, Mecklenburg and Union Counties in NC and York County in
58 CasInterest : Southwest isn't in Richmond, and I don't think they will be for a long time to come, now that they have the code share with ATA out of National.
59 AADC10 : You can argue all you want about the population of the area but even if you go with the larger number, Charlotte is small for a hub city. If US folds,
60 Gsoflyer : Charlotte is not that small for a hub city. Of the hub cities that are left, we still see some fairly small ones with the likes of Pittsburgh, Clevel
61 ScottB : GSOflyer- Exactly how many of those hubs at CAE, GSO, RDU, and BNA were successful in the long run? Exactly zero. While CLT is the "next best thing" t
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