717fan From Switzerland, joined Nov 2001, 2017 posts, RR: 7 Posted (8 years 1 month 3 weeks 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 3882 times:
From aviationnow.com: Midwest won't exercise 717 options.
I am surprised that this one is at aviationdaily now, to my knowledge Boeing is not accepting any 717 order since the beginning of March....
I am not a subscriber to aviationnow, so I am not able to read the full text, but I am wondering what Midwest will do...do they replace the 717's with another type or will they go the Airtran way in ordering some 737NG's and operate them alongside the 717?
DAYflyer From United States of America, joined Sep 2004, 3807 posts, RR: 4 Reply 1, posted (8 years 1 month 3 weeks 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 3859 times:
They are in financial difficulty so I am not surprised. I doubt if they will orer anything at this point until they get the house in order. It is actually cheaper for them to keep using the gas-guzzlers that they own than to assume a new lease or purchase payment plus the fuel.
AA737-823 From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 5334 posts, RR: 11 Reply 2, posted (8 years 1 month 3 weeks 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 3700 times:
Gas guzzlers that they own?
They don't own any... the DC-9s left the property in October. And MD-80s are known to be about as fuel-friendly as 737-300s.
I don't anticipate Midwest ever being large enough to order more planes.
The industry has proven that the number of people willing to pay MORE for service (leg room on American, food on Northwest, pillows on everybody else are recent examples that come to mind) is about... zero.
At this point, I just hope they can survive. I think they're a great airline, and I am willing to pay more (during those times I can afford it! College sucks!) for their great service. Unfortunately, I can't fly them any this summer, as I will be living in Alaska... and a 717 prolly won't make it from MKE to ANC.
PANAM_DC10 From Australia, joined Aug 2000, 3987 posts, RR: 93 Reply 4, posted (8 years 1 month 3 weeks 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 3420 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW COMMUNITY MANAGER
717fan
This is all they said. It is a copy of their Filing with the SEC.
As Midwest Air Group, Inc. (the “Company”) has previously reported, its subsidiary Midwest Airlines currently operates 18 Boeing 717 aircraft and has a firm order for seven more and options to purchase up to 25 additional Boeing 717s at pre-negotiated prices. The Company plans to take delivery of three of the seven Boeing 717s subject to the firm order in 2005 and the remaining four in 2006. After assessing the Company’s future fleet requirements, the Company has decided not to exercise any of the options to purchase additional Boeing 717 aircraft.
Not too much detail sorry but cancellations usually are like that.
Doona From Sweden, joined Feb 2005, 3706 posts, RR: 14 Reply 5, posted (8 years 1 month 3 weeks 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 3380 times:
Buuu! Nobody seems to keep the rear mounted twin-jets in production. I think it's kinda funny that both rear mounted A/C designed to replace MD-80s and DC-9s have failed to do so miserably... Both the MD-90 and the B717 only sold between 100 and 200 each, and hardly any MD-80s or DC-9s have actually been replaced with these particular A/C.
Perhaps it's too early for a MD-80/DC-9 replacement. Too bad that two of the most beautiful A/C will most likely leave the skies before the A/C they were designed to replace do...
Cheers
Mats
Sure, we're concerned for our lives. Just not as concerned as saving 9 bucks on a roundtrip to Ft. Myers.
Airportugal310 From United States of America, joined Apr 2004, 3056 posts, RR: 2 Reply 6, posted (8 years 1 month 3 weeks 6 days 10 hours ago) and read 3256 times:
Its funny this post should arise:
I was talking to one of my good buddies out on the ramp the other day from Midwest and he was telling me that Midwest was actually looking at a 717 "replacement" (so to speak..since the line is closed) and were thinking about 737-800's.
Now if that was true, then that would be a sleek looking 738!
FA4B6 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 7, posted (8 years 1 month 3 weeks 6 days 9 hours ago) and read 3229 times:
Quoting Airportugal310 (Reply 6): I was talking to one of my good buddies out on the ramp the other day from Midwest and he was telling me that Midwest was actually looking at a 717 "replacement" (so to speak..since the line is closed) and were thinking about 737-800's.
I always thought Midwest would do will with the new E-jets .. possibly the 195. Their 717's only seat 88 pax and their Signature MD82's 116 pax. If they're only looking to replace the 717's, I think the 190 or 195 would be their best bet. They're apparently inexpensive to operate, the cabins are gorgeous, and over a really nice flying experience especially with the engines being wing mounted.
MidnightMike From United States of America, joined Mar 2003, 2892 posts, RR: 16 Reply 8, posted (8 years 1 month 3 weeks 6 days 9 hours ago) and read 3228 times:
Quoting 717fan (Thread starter): I am not a subscriber to aviationnow, so I am not able to read the full text, but I am wondering what Midwest will do...do they replace the 717's with another type or will they go the Airtran way in ordering some 737NG's and operate them alongside the 717?
Depending on Midwest's business plan, perhaps there is no plan for future growth & then no need to replace aircraft.
In the future, maybe they will keep the 717 & replace the MD80's with another type aircraft.
Captoveur From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 9, posted (8 years 1 month 3 weeks 6 days 9 hours ago) and read 3218 times:
Quoting AA737-823 (Reply 2): The industry has proven that the number of people willing to pay MORE for service (leg room on American, food on Northwest, pillows on everybody else are recent examples that come to mind) is about... zero.
I was willing to pay more for legroom on AA. I guess people have to know you offer something to differentiate your product for it to matter. I know midex offers food and more leg room.. along with higher prices and service to nowhere that I Want to go but the average flyer booking a vacation probably is barely aware they exist even if they serve their home city.
PHLBOS From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 7251 posts, RR: 25 Reply 10, posted (8 years 1 month 3 weeks 6 days 9 hours ago) and read 3209 times:
Quoting Airportugal310 (Reply 6): I was talking to one of my good buddies out on the ramp the other day from Midwest and he was telling me that Midwest was actually looking at a 717 "replacement" (so to speak..since the line is closed) and were thinking about 737-800's.
If YX is cancelling their 717 option order due to present financial reasons, I wouldn't hold my breath on seeing any 738s in YX colors just yet.
Keep in mind, there is a possibility of them being bought out by another carrier... namely FL. Should that happen, FL could easily put YX's 25 717s to use; giving FL a total (including their remaining 7 deliveries) of 113 717s in their fleet.
"TransEastern! You'll feel like you've never left the ground because we treat you like dirt!" SNL Parady ad circa 1981
Airportugal310 From United States of America, joined Apr 2004, 3056 posts, RR: 2 Reply 11, posted (8 years 1 month 3 weeks 6 days 9 hours ago) and read 3203 times:
FA4B6:
I totally agree. It seems as though a 738 would be a huge gain in seats on *certain routes* but a waste on others.
A smaller regional jet like an E-jet would probably be better suited for the (what I perceive to be) business clientele that they fly to and fro the east coast. Put the current 717's on other routes like LAS or something.
Just from what I know, BOS is a hit or miss market with them....sometimes a full boat....sometimes nada. Hopefully they know best!
FA4B6 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 12, posted (8 years 1 month 3 weeks 6 days 9 hours ago) and read 3203 times:
Quoting PHLBOS (Reply 10): Keep in mind, there is a possibility of them being bought out by another carrier... namely FL. Should that happen, FL could easily put YX's 25 717s to use; giving FL a total (including their remaining 7 deliveries) of 113 717s in their fleet.
I hope it's not FL. YX has a much better product IMHO then FL does. I think FL is a great airline, but YX vs. FL .. I'd choose YX in a second.
JBo From Sweden, joined Jan 2005, 2278 posts, RR: 0 Reply 13, posted (8 years 1 month 3 weeks 6 days 9 hours ago) and read 3178 times:
Quoting PHLBOS (Reply 10): Keep in mind, there is a possibility of them being bought out by another carrier... namely FL. Should that happen, FL could easily put YX's 25 717s to use; giving FL a total (including their remaining 7 deliveries) of 113 717s in their fleet.
Possibility? Slim rumor, maybe. YX has no intention of selling out to FL. I would think that the only way AirTran would take over Midwest is by way of a bankruptcy liquidation, which I hope never happens. Even with their amenities 'reduced' as of late, Midwest is still one of the premier US carriers for their service, they wouldn't compare to FL.
I'd take the awe of understanding over the awe of ignorance any day.
AirTran737 From United States of America, joined Apr 2004, 3639 posts, RR: 12 Reply 14, posted (8 years 1 month 3 weeks 6 days 7 hours ago) and read 3062 times:
YX may have a better product, but it's that very product that will have them flirting with Chapter 11 this summer. YX lost 40 million last year, and are already predicted to lose that much in '05 is not more. With a market cap of 50 million, how much longer until they are bought out? The have begun to outsource their ramp, and in my opinion the ticket agents are next. The fewer employees that you have on your payroll, the easier it makes a merger. Make no mistake YX can't stay in business much longer with the way that they are run. Tim Hoeksema and the boys in the cookie palace need to go. Tim has tunnel vision, by the time he reacts to his surrounding environment it is to late. I honestly believe that YX will soon be a thing of the past without drastic changes.
Nice Trip Report!!! Great Pics, thanks for posting!!!! B747Forever
D950 From United States of America, joined Jul 2004, 493 posts, RR: 2 Reply 15, posted (8 years 1 month 3 weeks 6 days 6 hours ago) and read 2947 times:
Since Midwest is not using its options, why dont Airtran put in a last order for 20. With GermaWings/LH hinting they may be looking for some, and Aloha, or whoever, could you not sub-lease and turn a small profit??
Resting on your laurels is a synonym for flirting with disaster
Captoveur From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 16, posted (8 years 1 month 3 weeks 6 days 4 hours ago) and read 2809 times:
Quoting D950 (Reply 15): why dont Airtran put in a last order for 20. With GermaWings/LH hinting they may be looking for some, and Aloha, or whoever, could you not sub-lease and turn a small profit??
Placing the order without something already in writing would be a huge gamble. Not even AirTran can afford to buy 717s only to have them delivered to the desert.
Elwood64151 From United States of America, joined Feb 2002, 2477 posts, RR: 7 Reply 17, posted (8 years 1 month 3 weeks 6 days 4 hours ago) and read 2797 times:
Quoting FA4B6 (Reply 7): I always thought Midwest would do will with the new E-jets .. possibly the 195. Their 717's only seat 88 pax and their Signature MD82's 116 pax. If they're only looking to replace the 717's, I think the 190 or 195 would be their best bet. They're apparently inexpensive to operate, the cabins are gorgeous, and over a really nice flying experience especially with the engines being wing mounted.
The reason that their Signature aircraft have fewer seats is because they have four-abreast Biz/First class style seats. Can the E-195 offer that many seats in such a layout?
Quoting PHLBOS (Reply 10): Keep in mind, there is a possibility of them being bought out by another carrier... namely FL. Should that happen, FL could easily put YX's 25 717s to use; giving FL a total (including their remaining 7 deliveries) of 113 717s in their fleet.
1) If FL is going to buy the YX 717s, they'll do it after a YX bankruptcy, which is still a long way off. Purchasing YX right now would saddle FL with their debt, payscale, and other obligations.
2) YX has started doing a lot of things right. They've consolidated their facilities in the LA basin, added flights at both hubs, and all without adding a significant number of aircraft, which means aircraft use is up, spreading the cost of ownership over more flights.
3) The worst thing YX did was add its "Saver Service" crap. Sure, they can have coach. But they should have kept their Signature Service on every aircraft. YX could have offered a more traditional-style seating arrangement, with First Class and Coach Class on the same aircraft, but instead of keeping that which differentiated them from the pack, they dropped it (from many cities out of MKE) in favor of a Southwest approach. Bad move for an airline that had distinguished itself among business travellers.
Quoting AirTran737 (Reply 14): Tim Hoeksema and the boys in the cookie palace need to go. Tim has tunnel vision, by the time he reacts to his surrounding environment it is to late. I honestly believe that YX will soon be a thing of the past without drastic changes.
Well, they just hired Scott Dickson, a known turn-around agent. He succeeded at Groupo-TACA, nearly did so at Vanguard (in fact, Vanguard's own success in the summer of 2002 is what killed it-re: credit card surety bonds), and has been consulting for the past two years. So figure that if he stays there, things will start to look up.
Quoting D950 (Reply 15): Since Midwest is not using its options, why dont Airtran put in a last order for 20.
Probably because they have an order for 50+50 73Gs. Why leverage themselves beyond what's reasonable? Sure, a few more 717s means they could add service to AUS, CMH, BDL, OMA, and other cities. But as 737s begin to replace 717s on the more densely populated routes, those 717s can open new routes instead of newly-purchased aircraft.
It's too bad the 717 line had to die before the legacy carriers could overcome their financial difficulties. It truly is a remarkable little aircraft that deserves a better fate than this.
Those who fail to learn history are doomed to repeat it in summer school.
PHLBOS From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 7251 posts, RR: 25 Reply 18, posted (8 years 1 month 3 weeks 6 days 4 hours ago) and read 2740 times:
Quoting Elwood64151 (Reply 17): It's too bad the 717 line had to die before the legacy carriers could overcome their financial difficulties. It truly is a remarkable little aircraft that deserves a better fate than this.
Amen to that.
"TransEastern! You'll feel like you've never left the ground because we treat you like dirt!" SNL Parady ad circa 1981
Caspian27 From United States of America, joined Mar 2005, 359 posts, RR: 2 Reply 19, posted (8 years 1 month 3 weeks 6 days 4 hours ago) and read 2738 times:
What about switching over to a CRJ-900? That would be about the same size as the 717; the CRJ-900 will seat 86 while the Midwest 717 is configured for 88.
As far as as range is concerned the 900 will fly 2,774km and the 717 (with 106 pax) 2,545km.
PHLBOS From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 7251 posts, RR: 25 Reply 20, posted (8 years 1 month 3 weeks 6 days 4 hours ago) and read 2676 times:
Quoting Caspian27 (Reply 19): What about switching over to a CRJ-900? That would be about the same size as the 717; the CRJ-900 will seat 86 while the Midwest 717 is configured for 88.
Isn't the the seating for the CRJ-900 already 4-across Coach seating?
Being that YX's 717 seats are Business Class seats (i.e. wider), as with the E-195 that someone else mentioned; an all-Business Class CRJ-900 (if there is such an animal) would have a significantly lower capacity than the 717.
"TransEastern! You'll feel like you've never left the ground because we treat you like dirt!" SNL Parady ad circa 1981
Caspian27 From United States of America, joined Mar 2005, 359 posts, RR: 2 Reply 21, posted (8 years 1 month 3 weeks 6 days 4 hours ago) and read 2585 times:
Quoting PHLBOS (Reply 20): Isn't the the seating for the CRJ-900 already 4-across Coach seating?
Being that YX's 717 seats are Business Class seats (i.e. wider), as with the E-195 that someone else mentioned; an all-Business Class CRJ-900 (if there is such an animal) would have a significantly lower capacity than the 717.
That's true. I didn't take into account the fact that the 717 seats in their configuration are wider. That would significantly reduce the capacity.
D950 From United States of America, joined Jul 2004, 493 posts, RR: 2 Reply 22, posted (8 years 1 month 3 weeks 6 days 4 hours ago) and read 2545 times:
Another thread reads that Saudi is looking for 15 or so 50-100 seat aircraft. Given Boeings history with Saudi, how far up Boeings a** do you think their head was not to push the 717 before they pulled the plug, but another opportunity gone past!!!
Resting on your laurels is a synonym for flirting with disaster
Srbmod From United States of America, joined Mar 2001, 16888 posts, RR: 51 Reply 23, posted (8 years 1 month 3 weeks 6 days 4 hours ago) and read 2546 times:
YX looked at the A319/320 as well as the 737NG when they looked for a DC-9 replacement, and chose the 717 because in the standard YX layout (this was before "Signature" and "Saver") the seating would stay 2X2; had they chosen the 737 or A319/320, they layout would have had to be 2X3, and they really wanted to keep their standard layout. If they do stick around and regain profitablity, I could see them ordering some 737NGs as replacements for the MD-80s.
Now for an outside the box thought. With DL looking to retire their MD-90s in the near future, perhaps YX could pick them up as an MD-80 replacement.
SkyexRamper From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 24, posted (8 years 1 month 3 weeks 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 1631 times:
There has been rumor around the D concourse here @ MKE that YX is currently looking to replace the MD-80s with bigger airplanes. I think 737s are out of the question because any airline knows the A320 is cheaper to get, but always fail to realize that they are more expensive to operate.
25 SkyexRamper: YX is on their last leg of survival as you can tell by these strong moves to get rid of their in house workforce.
26 HermansCVR580: You must remember that the D-concourse here in MKE has only a couple of gates that you can put a larger plane at, unless you plan to have wings that f
27 SkyexRamper: Might want to tell that to the cookie palace...but don't worry they don't even listen to their employees let alone an outsider. You can park a 747-400
28 Midway2AirTran: As for FL buying out YX, I seriously doubt it! Only if there was an extreme shake-up of the industry that would bring tremendous value of leasing thos
29 MDFlyer: For everyone throwing out the two letter identifiers -- YX, FL, ... Did you know that the FAA did away with these two letter IDs four years ago?
30 Midway2AirTran: Never heard of that cause they were used them in my job back less then a year ago. I still see them with flight numbers and in airports too. Regardle
31 DCA-ROCguy: Probably because they have an order for 50+50 73Gs. Why leverage themselves beyond what's reasonable? Sure, a few more 717s means they could add servi
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