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JFK Needs CDG Morning Departure  
User currently offlinePadcrasher From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Posted (9 years 4 months 1 week 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 2454 times:

This market should be able to support one small widebody. You could get late night departures from the West Coast as feed.

20 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlinePetazulu From United States of America, joined Jan 2003, 701 posts, RR: 1
Reply 1, posted (9 years 4 months 1 week 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 2415 times:

I hear ya! The current night departure CDG-JFK Westbound is the best!

User currently offlineLaxintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 24880 posts, RR: 46
Reply 2, posted (9 years 4 months 1 week 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 2368 times:

Not too long ago was involved with a study about just such a flight.

Unfortunately the numbers do not work out.

Problem is that a for instance 800am departure from JFK would arrive Paris around 10pm, with really no chances of beyond connections.

There is not enough O&D traffic that would support such a flight beyond maybe a small BBJ/A319CJ operation. However such a operation would have terrible utilization as the difference in time would actually require basically two aircraft dedicated to the flights with a parking overnight in NY.

In the past even with the Concorde, the flight arrived early enough to offer many beyond connections to Europe, Middle East and Africa destinations.



From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
User currently offlineIncitatus From Brazil, joined Feb 2005, 4002 posts, RR: 13
Reply 3, posted (9 years 4 months 1 week 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 2321 times:

BA offers 4 day flights daily to London (BOS/JFK/EWR/IAD - LHR)
AA offers 3 day flights daily to London (ORD/BOS/JFK - LHR)
UA offers 1 (IAD-LHR)
VS offers 1 (EWR-LGW)
That is it, if I counted all.

Even with the study Laxintl mentioned, I find hard to believe CDG would not support one single lonely flight from NY to Paris with a morning departure.
It could be timed to offer connections at the NY end, a 9:45 am departure. I think if American were to add a 3rd flight on the route, it would be a 9:45ish am departure.

It's impossible for AF to connect a day transatlantic at CDG to other airports in Europe. But they have ~11 pm departures for Africa and Asia longhauls.


User currently offlineDutchjet From Netherlands, joined Oct 2000, 7864 posts, RR: 57
Reply 4, posted (9 years 4 months 1 week 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 2230 times:

Its hard to believe, but daylight flights from the US to Europe dont work, even on the busy NYC-CDG route.....a daylight morning departure from the US to any European city must be supported soley by O & D traffic - ie, the flight would leave too early to allow any inbound connections, and the flight arrives too late to allow any onward connections. TWA tried a daylight JFK-CDG many years ago (with a 1011, I think) with little success. Most business travellers are not intersted in the daylight services, since they lose an entire day of work for travel.

As pointed out, the only market that supports the daylight flights are those into London, due to the huge market on London routes - plus there may be some connections on to the Gulf States and Africa that make sense.

Very late departures out of the US east coast make more sense and may materialize. An 11PM departure from NYC would get you into most European cities about noon time - very nice for sleeping and working schedules.


User currently offlineAhlfors From Canada, joined Oct 2000, 1346 posts, RR: 5
Reply 5, posted (9 years 4 months 1 week 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 2214 times:

Quoting Dutchjet (Reply 4):
An 11PM departure from NYC would get you into most European cities about noon time - very nice for sleeping and working schedules.

Yes... nothing worse than having a bad nights sleep and arriving at the destination 6-7am and having to get through an entire day before going to sleep.
An 10-11pm departure puts you to sleep at a good time, and when you get to the destination around noon, there's only half a day to get through... and
You can check into hotels right away!!! Nothing worse than arriving at 6am and then having to wait until noon to get a room!


User currently offlineAirbazar From United States of America, joined Sep 2003, 8232 posts, RR: 10
Reply 6, posted (9 years 4 months 1 week 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 2199 times:

Quoting Dutchjet (Reply 4):
An 11PM departure from NYC would get you into most European cities about noon time - very nice for sleeping and working schedules.

Not really. Night flights from the Northeast US are too short to sleep and you arrive way too tired to work. That is why there are so many day flights to London. Because business folks prefer the morning departure. You can work all day on the plane, go to sleep upon arrival on a real bed, and then go to work fresh the next day and catch the evening flight back to the US after a full day of meetings/work.

The reason why you don't see more day flights is because they are very expensive to operate for the airlines. Airlines need 2 aircraft for the route and one needs to stay parked overnight. Only routes with high O&D yield justify a day flight. US to London is really in a class by itself in this regard, as far as transatlantic travel.


User currently offlineMlsrar From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 1417 posts, RR: 8
Reply 7, posted (9 years 4 months 1 week 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 2200 times:

Quoting Incitatus (Reply 3):
I find hard to believe CDG would not support one single lonely flight from NY to Paris with a morning departure.

He didn't say it wouldn't work, but not with mainline jet service. The growing popularity of thinner, point-to-point routes with 319/BBJs (IE PrivatAir) would be an applicable situation for a daylight CDG service.



I mean, for the right price I’ll fight a lion. - Mike Tyson
User currently offlinePetazulu From United States of America, joined Jan 2003, 701 posts, RR: 1
Reply 8, posted (9 years 4 months 1 week 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 2165 times:

How about Red-eye to Europe transfers for a day flight? An 8:00 am departure would provide transfers to passengers inbound from SAN/LAX/LAS/PHX/SFO/SJO/Portland/Seattle/Vancouver/Etc. Also, transfers between JFK/ South America flights could be made.

Either AA or DL would be ideal for this.

On the other side, you have transfers to Africa and just O+D + the west coast traffic.
Then with a 10pm departure from Paris, you would have a midnight arrival in New York. It would be great for several resons:

CDG is empty at that time of the day
Traffic to both airports is minimal at those time of day. I would do it

[Edited 2005-03-24 22:39:36]

User currently offlinePetazulu From United States of America, joined Jan 2003, 701 posts, RR: 1
Reply 9, posted (9 years 4 months 1 week 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 2147 times:

Oh, one more thing: AF already has an 11pm departure. It is my preferred departure because you are sleepy, and the morning rush at CDG and roads around it is over.

User currently offlineSchipholjfk From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 579 posts, RR: 6
Reply 10, posted (9 years 4 months 1 week 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 1972 times:

Quoting Dutchjet (Reply 4):
Very late departures out of the US east coast make more sense and may materialize. An 11PM departure from NYC would get you into most European cities about noon time - very nice for sleeping and working schedules.

For years I have used KL Flight #644 from JFK to AMS (11:15PM departure). Perfect for completing a work day in New York and then getting some sleep while flying before arriving at a reasonable time in Europe. Glad to see KLM bringing back KL644 to 6x a week from current 3x or 4x later in April, 2005. Other airlines should think about adding late departures from US East Coast. Works very well.



The fun of flying... love it !!!
User currently offlineSchipholjfk From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 579 posts, RR: 6
Reply 11, posted (9 years 4 months 1 week 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 1968 times:

Quoting Airbazar (Reply 6):
Not really. Night flights from the Northeast US are too short to sleep and you arrive way too tired to work.

Not really true. As mentioned in my previous post, I have been flying KL 644 from JFK departing after 11PM and five to six hours of sleep time is more than enough. How long do you think most business guys like us sleep each night anyway when at home? No more than 5-6 hours a night. The late departures from the US East coast at least allow you to keep your internal clock to work as normally as possible. Leaving around 6PM (US - EST) and arriving around 6-7AM (midnight-1AM EST) in Europe is a bitch. By Noon (local European time) you are ready to hit the bed. I prefer the late departures.



The fun of flying... love it !!!
User currently offlineAndie007 From United States of America, joined Jun 2000, 861 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (9 years 4 months 1 week 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 1866 times:

Quoting Petazulu (Reply 9):

Same on American to LHR.
I regulary take AA116 from JFK to LHR departin 11:30 pm at JFK.
Perfect for connections on BA at LHR.

The main advantage for dayflights to LHR is the +5 hr timechange (Paris has +6).
After arriving at ca. 8pm you can get some connections to the UK.


User currently offlineAF022 From France, joined Dec 2003, 2150 posts, RR: 1
Reply 13, posted (9 years 4 months 1 week 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 1863 times:

only london could support morning departures. JFKLHR traffic is vastly bigger than JFKCDG, and the fact that CDG is one time zone off LHR doesn't help either.

For AF to connect to longhaul bank deparing at 2300, an AM JFKCDG flight would have to leave at 0900, and, as mentioned above, where would the aircraft come from? AF would have to introduce a late late CDGJFK flight, like 2045/2300, which would overnight and then come back.

Not a great use of aircraft utilization.


User currently offlinePadcrasher From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 14, posted (9 years 4 months 1 week 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 1739 times:

Once the aircraft arrives in CDG have it serviced overnight. Some sort of required A/B/C check? Then send it back the next day.

User currently offlineIncitatus From Brazil, joined Feb 2005, 4002 posts, RR: 13
Reply 15, posted (9 years 4 months 1 week 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 1702 times:

Quoting AF022 (Reply 13):
only london could support morning departures. JFKLHR traffic is vastly bigger than JFKCDG, and the fact that CDG is one time zone off LHR doesn't help either.

I don't disagree with that. But... 9 nine day flights per day to London, why Paris won't support a single one? Even Chicago has its day flight to London, and its time zone diff to LHR is the same as NY-Paris.

Also if it's a late morning departure out of JFK, then it won't be a local traffic flight only.


User currently offlineAvianca From Venezuela, joined Jan 2005, 5922 posts, RR: 40
Reply 16, posted (9 years 4 months 1 week 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 1669 times:

Quoting Schipholjfk (Reply 10):
Other airlines should think about adding late departures from US East Coast. Works very well.

before 2001 LH operated a late night depature from JFK to FRA at 11:50 pm.

regards



Colombia es el Mundo Y el Mundo es Colombia
User currently offlineAF022 From France, joined Dec 2003, 2150 posts, RR: 1
Reply 17, posted (9 years 4 months 1 week 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 1602 times:

Quoting Incitatus (Reply 15):
Also if it's a late morning departure out of JFK, then it won't be a local traffic flight only

if flight leaves JFK at 0800 or 0900 or 1000 or 1100, its all local because connecting traffic at JFK is minimal.


User currently offlineYUL332LX From Canada, joined Feb 2004, 820 posts, RR: 1
Reply 18, posted (9 years 4 months 1 week 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 1592 times:

Quoting Incitatus (Reply 15):
I don't disagree with that. But... 9 nine day flights per day to London, why Paris won't support a single one? Even Chicago has its day flight to London, and its time zone diff to LHR is the same as NY-Paris.

I agree. I'm surprised AF has yet to replace the Concorde flight with and AM departure from JFK operated by a 332.



E volavo, volavo felice più in alto del sole, e ancora più su mentre il mondo pian piano spariva lontano laggiù ...
User currently offlineAirFrnt From United States of America, joined Jul 2004, 2825 posts, RR: 42
Reply 19, posted (9 years 4 months 1 week 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 1559 times:

Interesting.

So would it be possible for one of the new 787s or some low maintainence plane from Airbus in the future to fly some domestic routing during the day (Say DEN to ATL and back) and then be positioned at either DEN or ATL for a overnight to LHR and then fly a international circut from LHR to Europe during that day?


User currently offlineDutchjet From Netherlands, joined Oct 2000, 7864 posts, RR: 57
Reply 20, posted (9 years 4 months 1 week 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 1526 times:

If AF thought that it could operate a daylight flight between JFK and CDG (along with a late evening departure out of CDG into JFK), with an A332 or another type, and make money doing it, I think the flight would have been added to the schedule long ago. There is simply not adequate demand and/or the yeilds on the flight would not work....I realize that is surprising, but as I pointed out above, TWA tried it more than once without success back when they were the leading US carrier into Paris. London is simply a unique case, and that is the only US-Europe market that can support daylight services from key east coast US cities.

Many think that business pax would prefer a daylight flight into Europe, but in real life, they do not. If a business person would select a day light flight to Europe departing JFK at 0900, it would mean leaving their home by 0600 at the latest to be at JFK by 0700 to check-in (getting up at 0500 - yuk!) and arrival into the European city (say CDG) would be about 2230, meaning that they would not be out of the airport until 2330 (after customs, etc) and not at their hotel until after midnight. Thats a long day, and then its to work the next morning. Leisure flyers also are not happy with daytime flights.....they lose an entire day of vacation on the airplane. The flights to London work because of the huge market and demand on those routes, including the small segment that, for whatever reason, prefers flying by daylight......the small amount of travellers that would prefer to fly by daylight to Europe to other cities, including Paris, is not large enough to warrant an additional flight.


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