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QF's Kangaroo Route Under Even Bigger Threat  
User currently offline777ER From New Zealand, joined Dec 2003, 12082 posts, RR: 18
Posted (9 years 4 months 1 week 19 hours ago) and read 7579 times:
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The "kangaroo" route between Australia and London is now under even more threat. Malaysia Airlines is refurbishing 17 Boeing 747-400 and 17 Boeing 777-200 aircraft for its long-haul flights in a bid to capture a greater market share of the global high-end traveller market.

http://finance.news.com.au/story/0,10166,12662058-14305,00.html

[Edited 2005-03-28 06:13:56]

49 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineRuscoe From Australia, joined Aug 1999, 1546 posts, RR: 2
Reply 1, posted (9 years 4 months 1 week 18 hours ago) and read 7443 times:

Whether they want to or not QF are going to have to purchase some 77LR or 345, to keep the opposition out.

Ruscoe


User currently onlineAlitaliaMD11 From Spain, joined Dec 2003, 4068 posts, RR: 13
Reply 2, posted (9 years 4 months 1 week 17 hours ago) and read 7377 times:

Uh-oh,

When I grow up I hope to be a pilot for Qantas. I hope they will still be around. I want to fly the SYD-LAX route.



No Vueling No Party
User currently offline6thfreedom From Bermuda, joined Sep 2004, 3323 posts, RR: 20
Reply 3, posted (9 years 4 months 1 week 16 hours ago) and read 7284 times:

Quoting 777ER (Thread starter):
The "kangaroo" route between Australia and London is now under even more threat. Malaysia Airlines is refurbishing 17 Boeing 747-400 and 17 Boeing 777-200 aircraft for its long-haul flights in a bid to capture a greater market share of the global high-end traveller market.

Under more threat??? and since when has the kangaroo route been owned by Qantas.??

New aircraft, improved service, more services and healthy competetion can only be good for the tourism industry.

MH is a quality carrier, and now ranked at no.5 in terms of market share of UK-Australia traffic.

If competition is such an issue for QF, just wait til SQ puts on the A380 LHR-SIN-SYD, when EK operates the A380 Europe-DXB-SYD/MEL, when Qatar Airways commences services!!!


User currently offline777ER From New Zealand, joined Dec 2003, 12082 posts, RR: 18
Reply 4, posted (9 years 4 months 1 week 14 hours ago) and read 7147 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
FORUM MODERATOR

Quoting 6thfreedom (Reply 3):
and since when has the kangaroo route been owned by Qantas.??

Well thats what the route is knowen by many airlines, australians etc

Quoting 6thfreedom (Reply 3):
Under more threat???

I didn't write the article in the paper, an Australian paper did.


User currently offline777ER From New Zealand, joined Dec 2003, 12082 posts, RR: 18
Reply 5, posted (9 years 4 months 1 week 14 hours ago) and read 7141 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
FORUM MODERATOR

Quoting Ruscoe (Reply 1):
Whether they want to or not QF are going to have to purchase some 77LR or 345, to keep the opposition out.

Fully agree. Once one of the airlines orders either the A345 or B772LR or puts one already in the airlines fleet on the route then the other airlines will place orders or lease soem because the other airlines will have an advantage


User currently offlineQantasHeavy From Australia, joined Jan 2005, 379 posts, RR: 1
Reply 6, posted (9 years 4 months 1 week 14 hours ago) and read 7090 times:

If Malaysian were to join an Alliance, such as Sky Team (which would be a good fit, as ST has a big gap in South Asia, in terms of hubbing, and virtually no service to Australia -- a flight to Cairns via 5 Micronesian islands and a couple flights from SYD and BNE to SEL... hardly a lot) they might get more appeal.

I like MH, but long-haul is a critical way for the business traveller to get miles and status points. While companies such as JAL, Emirates and Malaysian are linked to many FF prgrams, you don't get bonus or tier status with your other FF program.

As a QF paltinum, qualifying three time over each year, I would fly on the new MH configuration if I could get good miles banked. But, even with the QF points inflation, the 225% mileage for a premium ticket is too good to pass up.


User currently offlinePerthGloryFan From Australia, joined Oct 2000, 751 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (9 years 4 months 1 week 13 hours ago) and read 7021 times:

Whether they want to or not QF are going to have to purchase some 77LR or 345, to keep the opposition out.

Aircraft types and configuration aren't the biggest threat to Qantas in this or any other market - their biggest problem is lack of route/destination choice.

Want to fly to Europe from Australia with Qantas? London (LHR) and Frankfurt, and that's it!!

C'mon give me a break - from Perth EK, SQ, CX and even Air Mauritius's once a week service, all give me more choice of destinations in Europe.

Instead of bleating about the big bad competition Dixon needs to show some leadership and make some route decisions that will counter this "threat" - and that may in turn mean appropriate fleet choices to make new routes profitable.

PGF


User currently offlineKaran69 From India, joined Oct 2004, 2885 posts, RR: 18
Reply 8, posted (9 years 4 months 1 week 13 hours ago) and read 7004 times:

Quoting 6thfreedom (Reply 3):
just wait til SQ puts on the A380 LHR-SIN-SYD, when EK operates the A380 Europe-DXB-SYD/MEL, when Qatar Airways commences services!!!

Wont QF put their A380s on simialr routes to LHR via HKG.SIN.BKK


User currently offlineAntares From Australia, joined Jun 2004, 1402 posts, RR: 39
Reply 9, posted (9 years 4 months 1 week 13 hours ago) and read 6964 times:

What's the point of suggesting QF go even further into debt to buy A345s or 777-200LRs when neither can do non-stop London from the east coast in either direction with enough passengers to make any money?

User currently offlineQantas077 From Australia, joined Jan 2004, 5850 posts, RR: 40
Reply 10, posted (9 years 4 months 1 week 13 hours ago) and read 6963 times:

isn't Qantas restricted in the amount of flights ex Singapore to Europe, this is why John Anderson has been in Europe lobbying different countries to get better access for QF to european airports, it pulled out of CDG because it was restricted to 3 flights a week.

thats not really QF's fault, more to do with the EU govts and the restrictions imposed on our airline.



a true friend is someone who sees the pain in your eyes, while everyone else believes the smile on your face.
User currently offlineBill142 From Australia, joined Aug 2004, 8440 posts, RR: 8
Reply 11, posted (9 years 4 months 1 week 13 hours ago) and read 6928 times:

Under threat? No way. Qantas competes with something like 24 other carriers and this route would have pretty good loads all year round.

Quoting PerthGloryFan (Reply 7):

Aircraft types and configuration aren't the biggest threat to Qantas in this or any other market - their biggest problem is lack of route/destination choice.

Agreed. LHR or FRA isn't a big choice unless you want to fly to LHR and the back track on a BA flight. You've got more options with CX, SQ and EK all with compareable prices and flight times. Qantas is shooting it self in the foot by not offering enough destinations. Perhaps they could expand the SIN hub and base a fleet of A330's or put the much rumored 777's there to serve other european destinations.
Going non-stop isn't going to change much either.


User currently offlineZvezda From Lithuania, joined Aug 2004, 10511 posts, RR: 64
Reply 12, posted (9 years 4 months 1 week 13 hours ago) and read 6910 times:

If I were running Qantas, I would buy 5 B777-200LR and operate LHR-SYD and LHR-MEL nonstop with a scheduled technical stop in Europe on the westbounds, which could be skipped when wind conditions are favorable or loads are light. I would configure about 100 C sleeper seats in 2-2-2 and about 100 Y seats in 2-2/2-2. I would sell only full C and full Y fares. No way for EK or SQ to compete directly with that.

User currently offlineAntares From Australia, joined Jun 2004, 1402 posts, RR: 39
Reply 13, posted (9 years 4 months 1 week 13 hours ago) and read 6894 times:

Zvezda,

You'd also send them broke. Qantas has said neither jet can make money for it either way non stop.

A tech stop on the westbound trip would totally destroy the premium selling point of non-stop service since the trip time would be same as today's one-stops give or take a few minutes.

Incidentally if you've flown EK or SQ in First the last year as well as QF, and I have, they can stop twice as much as Qantas and I'd still give them my money.

Antares


User currently offline6thfreedom From Bermuda, joined Sep 2004, 3323 posts, RR: 20
Reply 14, posted (9 years 4 months 1 week 12 hours ago) and read 6860 times:

Quoting Qantas077 (Reply 10):
isn't Qantas restricted in the amount of flights ex Singapore to Europe, this is why John Anderson has been in Europe lobbying different countries to get better access for QF to european airports, it pulled out of CDG because it was restricted to 3 flights a week.

thats not really QF's fault, more to do with the EU govts and the restrictions imposed on our airline.

Australia is holding talks with the EU next month, in the hope of getting increased rights to places like France.

I think the lack of capacity is also being played up by QF.. an excuse for pulling services. Realistically, I cant see QF resuming Rome, and Paris is marginal at best, especially given the new and extensive codeshare with AF over SIN.


User currently offlineB742 From United Kingdom, joined Mar 2005, 3767 posts, RR: 19
Reply 15, posted (9 years 4 months 1 week 11 hours ago) and read 6722 times:

Also TG are refurbishing their 744's with new cabins!

Rob!


User currently offlineDanialanwar From Switzerland, joined Mar 2001, 421 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (9 years 4 months 1 week 11 hours ago) and read 6664 times:

Quoting Qantas077 (Reply 10):
isn't Qantas restricted in the amount of flights ex Singapore to Europe

The problem here is not Singapore - they can fly as much out of Singapore as they like, but some European countries dont want to give QF more traffic rights (hence no reason to ban SQ from SYD to LAX for this reason). Even IF Singapore would restrict flights, SQ would surely have traffic rights to route more flights through Malaysia, Thailand, Dubai (or other gulf airports) even Hong Kong and India. So that cant be the excuse.

The problem now-a-days is that if you want to fly from any big city in Europe (excl. LHR, FRA) to - say - Sydney, it's one-stop same airline if you choose CX, TG, MH, SQ, EK, OS, UA compared to at least two stops and changing airline at FRA/LHR if you want to use QF.

Sadly, the A345 / B772LR cant make Europe to Sydney if any mentionable load. They could make LHR-PER, but the money is on the routes to SYD and MEL



Best Business Class: Royal Brunei. Best Economy: Singapore Airlines. First: please send money first!
User currently offlineQantas077 From Australia, joined Jan 2004, 5850 posts, RR: 40
Reply 17, posted (9 years 4 months 1 week 10 hours ago) and read 6596 times:

Quoting Danialanwar (Reply 16):
The problem here is not Singapore - they can fly as much out of Singapore as they like, but some European countries dont want to give QF more traffic rights (hence no reason to ban SQ from SYD to LAX for this reason). Even IF Singapore would restrict flights, SQ would surely have traffic rights to route more flights through Malaysia, Thailand, Dubai (or other gulf airports) even Hong Kong and India. So that cant be the excuse.

thats what i meant, QF is restricted in europe so no matter where they fly from in Asia they still face restrictions at european destinations.



a true friend is someone who sees the pain in your eyes, while everyone else believes the smile on your face.
User currently offlineQANTASforever From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 18, posted (9 years 4 months 1 week 10 hours ago) and read 6593 times:

Quoting Antares (Reply 9):
What's the point of suggesting QF go even further into debt to buy A345s or 777-200LRs when neither can do non-stop London from the east coast in either direction with enough passengers to make any money?

Qantas' debt is quite managable - they have been making healthy profits.


As for the thread:

Qantas has almost ALWAYS had to compete for the Kangaroo route - it's a tough market out there. There are many many many airlines currently on the route or similar routes and Qantas seems to be operating it well, with good capacity and profitability. When SQ, EK, Qatar and possibly MK start to use the A380 on the route - ..... so will Qantas. The playing field may be elevated in terms of capacity, but I don't believe the playing field will be altered all together.

Quoting AlitaliaMD11 (Reply 2):
Uh-oh,

When I grow up I hope to be a pilot for Qantas. I hope they will still be around. I want to fly the SYD-LAX route.

I think I can safely say that of all the international routes Qantas currently flies, SYD-LAX is one of the safest in terms of future availability.

Remember - Qantas has an extensive Domestic network to fall back on - something that many competing airlines simply do not have.


QFF


User currently offlineWunalaYann From Australia, joined Mar 2005, 2839 posts, RR: 25
Reply 19, posted (9 years 4 months 1 week 10 hours ago) and read 6555 times:

Quoting Zvezda (Reply 12):
I were running Qantas, I would buy 5 B777-200LR and operate LHR-SYD and LHR-MEL nonstop with a scheduled technical stop in Europe on the westbounds, which could be skipped when wind conditions are favorable or loads are light.

I see your point, but it's risky. I don't think passengers would relish the idea of a maybe/maybe-not stop on the return leg of a Europe-Oz-Europe trip. Tourists may not like the idea of "maybe" losing a precious day of holidays for a night in Singapore. Needless to say that business people would not even consider flying with that kind of schedule uncertainty...

Plus, having done the trip a few times, and knowing how physically draining it can be with just one stop-over, I cannot imagine sitting in a tube for 18 straight hours... Just a very personal opinion, sure, but most people I talk to feel the same.

Cheers,

Y.


User currently offlineDutchjet From Netherlands, joined Oct 2000, 7864 posts, RR: 57
Reply 20, posted (9 years 4 months 1 week 10 hours ago) and read 6509 times:

QF has always had a huge amount of competiton on the Kanagroo route....for years, it has always been possible to connect on airlines like SQ, MH, CX, TG and the others on a trip from Europe to Australia. This is nothing new - when BA and QF combined their London-Australia schedules back in the early 1990s when BA invested in QF, this was their prime arguement to the governmental authorites regulating competition. The two serious new players in the market are Virgin, with its direct LHR-HKG-SYD service and Emirates, with its ever growing network via Dubai. Luckily, the demand for flights between London and Australia seems to be growing.

QF has seriously cut back its European network which, over-time, could be a problem. That being said, per QF, the only real money to be made on the Kangaroo route is out of LHR and FRA due to the high demand for premium class seats. Cities like Paris and Rome were dropped from the QF network since most pax were lesiure travellers looking for inexpensive fares and the yeild were poor, also, I think QF could only fly 3 times per week out of Paris, and limited schedules such as these are not at all popular with premium fare pax who, more or less, require daily services. For the time being, it seems that QF is most focused on its London services.

If and when Boeing or Airbus develop advanced versions of the A345 or 777LR that can do LHR-SYD nonstop in each direction on a year round basis with full passenger loads, QF will be among the first purchasers of the new type, until then the situation will remain much as it is today. LHR-SIN-SYD is sure to be one of QF's first A380 routes.


User currently offlineXkorpyoh From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 819 posts, RR: 0
Reply 21, posted (9 years 4 months 1 week 9 hours ago) and read 6311 times:

I still think they can use the 777LR for some routes to compete better. For example, even though the money is in SYd/MEL, they still have traffic going from PER, so why not offered nonstops fom there: SYD-PER-LHR or MEL-PER-LHR. It seems to me that they could do SYD-ROME-LONDON or SYD-ATHENS-PARIS, for example, or any other combination of destinations in Europe. It they could at least do a LHR nonstop in either direction, i still think that is attractive to travelers and put thems ahead of the competition. They will still have the 1-stop a380, which is suppose to also attract traffic with the new aircraft. But if by offering a SYD-LHR and then, lets say, LHR-ROM-SYD, it is still Europe to SYD/MEL nonstop.

User currently offlineZvezda From Lithuania, joined Aug 2004, 10511 posts, RR: 64
Reply 22, posted (9 years 4 months 1 week 8 hours ago) and read 6132 times:

Quoting Dutchjet (Reply 20):
If and when Boeing or Airbus develop advanced versions of the A345 or 777LR that can do LHR-SYD nonstop in each direction on a year round basis with full passenger loads

I don't think it's practicable to add fuel capacity to either the A340-500 or the B777-200LR. That leaves weight reduction, drag reduction, and engine efficiency as ways to increase the range. I can imagine a combination of such improvments might increase the range of the B777-200LR to serve SYD-LHR nonstop year-round, but I can't imagine any combination of those sufficient in the A340-500 case.

I think Airbus would have a better chance developing a long-range version of the A350 than trying to further extend the range of the A340-500.


User currently offlineWunalaYann From Australia, joined Mar 2005, 2839 posts, RR: 25
Reply 23, posted (9 years 4 months 1 week 8 hours ago) and read 6077 times:

Quoting Dutchjet (Reply 20):
If and when Boeing or Airbus develop advanced versions of the A345 or 777LR that can do LHR-SYD nonstop in each direction on a year round basis with full passenger loads, QF will be among the first purchasers of the new type, until then the situation will remain much as it is today.



Quoting Xkorpyoh (Reply 21):
it is still Europe to SYD/MEL nonstop

Assuming that there IS interest for such a long flight. Again, outside of first class, and perhaps Business, 18 hours are a WHOLE lot to spend sitting on a plane.

And Boeing or Airbus have yet to build an aircraft able fly Europe/Oz non-stop, and both legs without strong-head-winds stops. That's the first hurdle to overcome.

Cheers,

Y.


User currently offlineScotron11 From United Kingdom, joined Feb 2004, 1178 posts, RR: 3
Reply 24, posted (9 years 4 months 1 week 2 hours ago) and read 4627 times:

Quoting WunalaYann (Reply 23):

Assuming that there IS interest for such a long flight

Well, if you consider SQ EWR-SIN & LAX-SIN a long flight, I would "assume" there is interest in such a long flight. And being the configuration that SQ operate these flights with, Raffles and Premium Economy, there is certainly a market for it.

Personally, I say "bunkum" to MH and all the other "fringe" carriers trying to muscle in on the so called "kangaroo" route; it's not as if they are new or haven't been around for a few years. Notwithstanding that this market is very large and caters to all segments of the flying public.

QF, like BA, is a premium carrier and premium carriers will always attract premium customers, no matter what the competition or equipment they offer.


25 NYCFlyer : why is QF limited in Europe? someone please explain this. thank you.
26 Antares : Dear QANTASforever, According to your leader Qantas is making half as much money as it needs to if it is to generate the profits to pay for the future
27 Post contains images ConcordeBoy : You've already answered the latter part of this question with the former Well, Boeing is studing a radical weight reduction of the 777 family, someth
28 Ruscoe : Antares, Does Qantas have a choice in Europe considering their fleet? What aircraft are they going to use to open thinner routes in Europe? IMO Qantas
29 Antares : Ruscoe, It seems that Qantas never took into real account the desire of people to avoid connecting backwards over heathrow to go somewhere else in Eur
30 ConcordeBoy : ...why would (the hindrance of) 4 engines be needed?
31 Post contains images Monteycarlos : Fair point.... I think the major protection for QF on this route is their continued alliance with BA. How the semi-recent stock sale buy BA will affe
32 Antares : Concordeboy, Qantas needs to retain capability to do two unusual things with a medium sized jet. 1. Fly non-stop from Australia to Buenos Aires or San
33 Chrisrad : So you are saying MH,SQ,CX.TG,EK are not premium carriers, they are infact much higher rated in customer surveys than QF/BA? Define "fringe" because
34 Gigneil : You couldn't possibly quote a single reason why 4 engines is a hinderance. Having a love for something is one thing, childish rhetoric is something e
35 Scotron11 : Define "fringe" because MH,SQ have more flights to Europe from Australia than QF/BA??? Maybe so. But I don't see QF or BA crying, do you? And my ment
36 Antares : Scotron11, I beg to differ on the P cabin on EK which I flew to Europe several months ago. It made everything else I ever flown in first class look in
37 Scotron11 : It made everything else I ever flown in first class look inferior There is a trip report by SQ722 on EK SYD-AKL. It makes interesting reading. All ex
38 Chrisrad : I beg to differ, QF/BA are the epitome of inconsistent service. Hence why they consistenty don't even get mentioned in Service awards, the view of 2m
39 6thfreedom : Are you kidding? QF whinges and cries all the time. Have you ever read any of their media releases when they discuss EK or the like?? Geez! Ask the Q
40 Zvezda : Perhaps some educated guessing is in order here. Airbus are engaged in a major weight cutting of the A330 to produce the A350. I seem to recall they
41 MAH4546 : skyTeam passengers can easily get to Cairns in two stops, such as AMS-NRT-GUM-CNS or EWR-HNL-GUM-CNS.
42 Scotron11 : Ask the QF and BA lads where they think there is a 'threat' on the Kangaroo route! within the next 12-18 months EK will be serving BNE, PER, SYD and
43 Antares : Scotron11, If you go to the DOTARS site and download the traffic stats you will find that Qantas struggles to get more than 40 % of the international
44 ACB777 : I don't really think QF's Kangroo Route will be threatened. With the exception of Austrian Airlines, their fares are usually lower than every other ai
45 6thfreedom : spot on! anyone that thinks that QF/BA are holding their ground needs to look at the stats. In some markets, such as MEL and BNE, QF now accounts for
46 Monkeyboi : I cannot speak for the other european countries but I know that the frequencies the Italian and French governments granted to QF for flights were equi
47 Aerokiwi : Antares: I found EK's business class on the A345 exquisitely superb!! I don't have a huge amount of j-class experience (only SQ and NZ), but it was fa
48 LXsaab2000 : QF usually flew 4 times/week to Rome with 743/744. They 've reported on these flights a medium LF of 88% (70% originated from Australia and 30% from I
49 Cornish : Monkeyboi is pretty much spot on with his comments. VFOR traffic can work in some cases, but a flight from Australia and Europe containing low yield t
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