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SkyTeam Harmonisation, When?!  
User currently offlineWhiskeyHotel From United States of America, joined Aug 2004, 283 posts, RR: 0
Posted (9 years 9 months 3 days 22 hours ago) and read 2764 times:

With CO's recent entrance into SkyTeam, I expected there to be an adjustment period whilst CO integrates itself fully into the new alliance. A few months in, and here's a few points that I've noticed amongst the SkyTeam carriers (Sorry for the heavy CO slant, but I fly them most often and know more about them and how they operate than any of the other SkyTeam Carriers...perhaps some enlightened A.netters can fill me in on the other SkyTeam carriers).

1. When booking a flight through continental.com, the only codeshare flights the system will show you are select NW/AS operated flights. Ever tried booking a flight from IAH-EZE on co.com? If you have, you've surely received this message: "Neither Continental nor its codeshare partners serve Buenos Aires AR (EZE) using a Continental flight number. You may modify your search criteria, or call 1-800-300-1547 for assistance." DL (SkyTeam member) and Copa (Codeshare partner 49% owned by CO) both fly to EZE, but apparently not as a CO numbered codeshare flight. If you want to fly IAH-NRT-SIN with the NRT-SIN segment on NW, that's OK though (or FAI-SEA on AS).

2. When calling CO's Elite Desk (Generally very professional people working there) to book reward travel, they never check availability on skyteam or codeshare partners unless you specifically request it. This I really don't get. So many CO Frequent Flyers get bent out of shape about NonePass never having standard reward availability (even as a plat it can be tough) to places like Europe and Hawaii. If CO reward booking agents would just check availability on all available carriers, they would more often than not put a smile on the faces of their best customers. In addition, you're getting a OnePass member to burn miles without taking up a valuable seat on CO metal.

3. Ever tried booking an AF flight through the AF website from europe to a market in the U.S. that AF doesn't serve with its own metal? If so, you've probably noticed that DL is the only skyteam carrier that AF will route you on for U.S. connections.

4. Don't even get me started on the difficulty/expense of booking an OK flight from Europe to anywhere in the U.S. other than NYC.

5. AZ and KE appear to be the bastard red-headed stepchildren of SkyTeam. I don't notice any of the other SkyTeam carriers touting their affiliation with these airlines, whereas much ado is made about CO/NW/DL NW/KL KL/AF partnerships between those respective airlines. I know OK doesn't get much press, but it's a fairly small operation compared to AZ and KE.

Many of these issues appear to be IT based. If these airlines could find some way to coordinate their web-bookings, there's no telling how much increased revenue they would realise from increased ease-of-use to the consumer (Very few frequent flyers want to spend ages on the phone making a complicated codeshare booking). What's the point of an alliance if it's so fractured that your average joe consumer can't take advantage of it? Does anyone know if the airlines comprising SkyTeam have any plans to make the alliance just that...an alliance? Just my  twocents 

31 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlinePhollingsworth From United Kingdom, joined Mar 2004, 825 posts, RR: 5
Reply 1, posted (9 years 9 months 3 days 22 hours ago) and read 2718 times:

One of the reasons there are not code-shares across the whole of the Skyteam alliance is that only some of the airlines actually have permission to fully code-share, e.g., AF-DL, NW-KL between the US and Europe. Inside the US DL-NW-CO have permission to codeshare on most domestic routes. They do not, however, have permission to codeshare outside of the US.

User currently offlineMisbeehavin From United States of America, joined Mar 2005, 914 posts, RR: 3
Reply 2, posted (9 years 9 months 3 days 22 hours ago) and read 2699 times:

A few days ago in New York, I saw a CO ad plastered across the city: More caribbean destinations than United and Northwest combined". WTF?

User currently offlineWhiskeyHotel From United States of America, joined Aug 2004, 283 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (9 years 9 months 3 days 22 hours ago) and read 2692 times:

So, Phollingsworth, this is primarily a regulatory issue?

If so, why tout the benefits of your "alliance" when the respective national governments/bilaterals/whatever won't let that alliance truly mature. Do *A and OW have these problems? (I seem to recall BA/AA can't codeshare on transatlantic flights due to antitrust issues). I know a codeshare entails revenue sharing, but if you can earn onepass miles on DL's ATL-EZE flight, it seems a bit silly that the flight can't be a codeshare accessible from CO's website.

Misbeehavin, that's shocking to hear CO bashing its closest ally (NW) in a public ad campaign. Also shocking is CO's 50% EQM policy on certain fare classes with other SkyTeam partners. Get this: All KL fare classes qualify for 100% EQM's, whereas only certain NW fare classes qualify (with the others garnering 50% EQM's). This applies to transatlantic codeshare KL/NW flights. So, you could have a flight where someone who purchased a discount economy fare on KL's website gets 100% EQMs, but someone on that same flight who purchased an equivalent discount economy fare from NW only gets 50% EQMs. (for those who don't know, EQMs are Elite Qualifying Miles...basically what you need to reach silver/gold/plat in onepass). No other SkyTeam carriers play this EQM BS game anymore (a few used to). CO certainly is the oddball in an oddball alliance


User currently offlineHjulicher From Liechtenstein, joined Feb 2005, 890 posts, RR: 2
Reply 4, posted (9 years 9 months 3 days 21 hours ago) and read 2640 times:

I have the same problem with northwest. Living in DTW, we really only have NW as our aircarrier to anywhere in the world. Yeah, the NW/KLM alliance is great but unfortunately, the transitive property doesn't work here. Although KLM is partners with NW, and also partners with AF, NW fliers cannot book on AF. This is really a pain because when booking a multicity flight within Europe but originating in the US it's very difficult. On the NW website, you would always get booked through AMS, even from Paris when trying to fly somewhere else. For instance, say I want to fly NW to paris, and then from paris to moscow, I have to fly KLM with a connection in AMS even though Aeroflot and Airfrane (who are partners on that specific flight segment) are not options. Additionally, I hate how NW members must use the NW website when booking flights even within Europe. Very annoying, it's very frusterating. However I must say that the alliance has made it very easy to redeem miles for a free flight, even at the last moment. I was able to fly on a standard award to Moscow from Detroit with a connection in Paris on NW and AF.

I can't wait til AF starts flying to DTW in the summer, then European connection (especially to Russia) will become a whole lot easier.



LH 442
User currently offlineSllevin From United States of America, joined Jan 2002, 3376 posts, RR: 6
Reply 5, posted (9 years 9 months 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 2586 times:

I agree that the websites don't route you onto codeshare partners where possible. I largely think that's an internal decision they've made in order to try and keep passengers on their metal. With the exception of a few codeahres (and alliances like NW/KL) the value of the alliance is only in that it helps bring YOU more business. There's no value in sending people to other alliance members if you can avoid it  Smile

Steve


User currently offlineWhiskeyHotel From United States of America, joined Aug 2004, 283 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (9 years 9 months 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 2578 times:

I can understand trying to keep travellers on your own metal as much as possible, Silevin, but as I noted with the EZE (and other cities) situation with CO, and as Hjulicher noted the NW policy for intra-europe flights, keeping people on your own metal isn't really an option (that's where the whole concept of an alliance comes into play). Honestly, who is going to fly CDG-AMS-MAD through the NW website when they could just fly CDG-MAD for the same or lower price and still earn miles on their respective skyteam carrier by calling AF and booking the flight through them. It seems that SkyTeam in particular amongst the alliances is the least integrated (Try booking an Around the World SkyTeam fare and having a single segment of that RTW booking on CO...not gonna happen). Also, try booking an award in International F on AF using Onepass or WorldPerks miles...once again, not gonna happen.

I honestly hope that the airlines comprising SkyTeam are working towards ironing out some of these issues. If not, I fear the alliance is doomed to remain a third-rate alliance at best when compared to the likes of OW and *A (Which is a shame considering most of my frequent travel occurs on SkyTeam partner airlines).


User currently offlineWhiskeyHotel From United States of America, joined Aug 2004, 283 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (9 years 9 months 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 2575 times:

Sorry, too lazy to edit...in the AF/KLM situation outlined above for CDG-AMS-MAD vs. CDG-MAD, keeping a flight on either KL or AF metal doesn't really matter, as they're the same airline now...so it's absolutely preposterous that Hjulicher can't make a booking through the NW website for an intra-europe AF flight since AF now owns KL.

User currently offlineThucydides From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 95 posts, RR: 3
Reply 8, posted (9 years 9 months 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 2528 times:

When searching for flights to NRT on DL, return flights on NW have been popping up for a while now.

Additionally, when booking award BE travel on DL from WAS to NRT last summer, DL routed me on NW from Seattle.


User currently offlineFlyingTexan From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 9, posted (9 years 9 months 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 2493 times:

You are not by chance going to the big Continental soirée in Houston this weekend? These types of questions will be addressed in-depth.

User currently offlineL410Turbolet From Czech Republic, joined May 2004, 5745 posts, RR: 19
Reply 10, posted (9 years 9 months 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 2455 times:

Quoting WhiskeyHotel (Thread starter):
4. Don't even get me started on the difficulty/expense of booking an OK flight from Europe to anywhere in the U.S. other than NYC.

Here's a little secret: EWR/JFK are the ONLY US destinations served by OK own aircraft. The rest are c/s using mainly DL metal. Frankly I don't see much sense in CO's webpage sending thier own customers to OK if they have their own planes to fill? The main point of alliance I see is to provide more destinations/routes beyond airline's own network


User currently offlineElagabal From United Kingdom, joined Mar 2005, 201 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (9 years 9 months 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 2385 times:

Hi Peeps,

Quoting WhiskeyHotel (Reply 3):
Misbeehavin, that's shocking to hear CO bashing its closest ally (NW) in a public ad campaign. Also shocking is CO's 50% EQM policy on certain fare classes with other SkyTeam partners.

Pure conspiracy theory here:

I'm willing to bet a handful of imaginary birdseed that CO are playing footsie with their SkyTeam partners partly on account of the uncertain outlook for UA, US and DL.

Imagine: if one or more of the above went under, and *A was down a carrier or two, who among the US majors do you think would be most easily integrated into another alliance instead? DL, AA and NW aren't going anywhere - their strategic partners are well and chosen, along with said partners' affiliations.

I realize that if DL goes under, CO might want to integrate /further/ into SkyTeam. For the time being, however, there's misfortune in the air  Sad but everyone seems to be hanging on, so from a certain point of view it might be a good idea for them to wait before choosing either way. Hence, their maintenance of a certain distance from their "allies."

2p


User currently offlineWhiskeyHotel From United States of America, joined Aug 2004, 283 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (9 years 9 months 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 2300 times:

FlyingTexan, I would be going to the big FT DO that Cigarman put together, but am leaving this morning to go to South Padre Island to enjoy the sun and sea. It was a war between my passions...aviation fetish or actual travel. I doubt I'll be too bent out of shape over missing the event whilst downing a cold one on the back of a boat in the Laguna Madre.

L410Turbojet (Very cool plane BTW...got to try one out La Ceiba-Guanaja on Islena Airways Honduras), my main gripe with OK was that in trying to book anywhere other than NYC on OK the cost of the tickets using the codeshare is generally ridiculous compared to booking through AF/KL/CO etc. OK's deals PRG-EWR are usually quite cheap, and I plan to grab a flight on them in the near future as I've heard service is excellent, but I'm fairly certain I'll have to book my EWR-MSY flight separately.

Elagabal, that's one helluva conspiracy theory...I personally would love it if CO switched to *A. Trying to get a SkyTeam flight to anywhere in Asia or Oz is damn near impossible (ICN isn't the most convenient hub, and I'm not really enamored of KE). I doubt it will happen though...MH will probably join SkyTeam before that happens, then the whole Asia/Oz coverage issue will become moot.

Sorry to start a thread and abandon it so soon, but sun and sea are calling.


User currently offlineL410Turbolet From Czech Republic, joined May 2004, 5745 posts, RR: 19
Reply 13, posted (9 years 9 months 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 2257 times:

Quoting WhiskeyHotel (Reply 12):
OK the cost of the tickets using the codeshare is generally ridiculous compared to booking through AF/KL/CO etc.

You mean OK c/s flights within the US?


User currently offlineWhiskeyHotel From United States of America, joined Aug 2004, 283 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (9 years 9 months 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 2251 times:

Yep. I generally try to book routings like EDI-PRG-EWR-IAH/BNA/MSY...which I realise is patently ridiculous (But I'm an A.nutter and want to try out OK's transat service). Every time I try booking out of EDI, the price is exorbitant (Probably because of routing/fare rules) for flying on OK metal most of the way. Also, if I try making the booking out of EDI, the OK website almost always tries to route me via KL/AF with a connection in CDG or AMS, so there's not even a single segment on OK metal...so my only option for flying OK would be to book a separate EDI-PRG segment (Generally quite expensive), a separate PRG-EWR segment (Generally quite cheap), and a separate EWR-wherever segment (because even booking from PRG-anywhere other than NYC...it tends to be very pricey...moreso than booking the separate PRG-EWR and EWR-wherever segments). Hope this post wasn't too confuzzling. Anyhoo, the car (gasp...not taking the jungle jet to BRO) is gassed up and I'm getting ready to hit the road for South Padre I. Hope all have a good weekend

User currently offlineLaxintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 26175 posts, RR: 50
Reply 15, posted (9 years 9 months 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 2235 times:

The Skyteam alliance is the least harmonized amongst its members as compared to the Oneworld and Star Alliance.

Some of the reasons for this have to do with previously mentioned legal obstacles that the alliance does not enjoy full code share rights and immunity across the members and countries.

In addition the alliance is quite behind in other behind the scene areas like information technology between members. For instance the Star Alliance has spent the last 4+ years working on a common network to help all the airlines computers talk to each other, and be able to share all types of data from frequent flyer award availability to yield management.

Also the Star and Oneworld alliances are further along for the most part in integration on front line customer service issues like airport facilities and ground handling.

While the Skyteam alliance has grown in size greatly by making the network of 3 of Americas largest airlines under one roof, the depth of the alliance is quite thin compared to its rivals.



From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
User currently offlineJunction From United States of America, joined Mar 2005, 778 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (9 years 9 months 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 2242 times:

Quoting Misbeehavin (Reply 2):
CO ad plastered across the city: More caribbean destinations than United and Northwest combined". WTF?

This is true, and it's all actual CO flights - not codeshare:
Antigua
Aruba
Bahamas
Barbados
Bermuda
Dominican Rep.
Grand Cayman
Jamaica
Puerto Rico
St. Maarten
St. Thomas
Trinidad & Tobago
http://www.continental.com/travel/destination/routes/maps.asp


User currently offlineGoCOgo From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 701 posts, RR: 1
Reply 17, posted (9 years 9 months 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 2092 times:

Quoting Phollingsworth (Reply 1):
only some of the airlines actually have permission to fully code-share, e.g., AF-DL, NW-KL between the US and Europe.

Doesn't CO-KL have permission as well? For instance, I search CLE-PRG, I get a plethora of options, all connecting in AMS with KL (but no CDG with AF or NYC nonstop with OK) On the other hand, I have a friend in college that is originally from Estonia, and wanted to fly home to TLL. He can search NW.com, and get connecting options with NW and KL to get there, but on CO.com, he gets the "! Neither Continental nor its codeshare partners serve Tallinn EE (TLL) using a Continental flight number" message.

It seams to be although it is a full alliance, only certain flights are codeshared. To me, that is idiotic. Can't CO at least make a few bucks getting my friend to AMS instead of giving him no options to use CO?



"Why you fly is your business, how you fly is ours"
User currently offlineFlyCaledonian From United Kingdom, joined Dec 2003, 2104 posts, RR: 3
Reply 18, posted (9 years 9 months 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 2068 times:

Another CO related question. I'm Silver Elite (Not that special I know) with OnePass, and according to Continental that makes me SkyTeam elite, being able to earn miles, etc, on the other carriers, but also enjoying other benefits, e.g. priority seating allocations. But if I try booking a KL/NW online I can't let them know this! And if I want to book in online, how can I get the seat allocations? Do I have to wait until I get to the airport, find an agent, hand over my OnePass card to be credited and then hope for a change in seating? Or is there some way to bypass all this and make it so much easier?


Let's Go British Caledonian!
User currently offlineHjulicher From Liechtenstein, joined Feb 2005, 890 posts, RR: 2
Reply 19, posted (9 years 9 months 3 hours ago) and read 1921 times:

My claim is not preposterous. Go to nwa.com and check for yourself. Sure you can fly AF from paris to AMS instead of KLM, but the site does not let one book a flight directly on airfrance.

I think the reason that CO is in the alliance right now is because of it's close ties to Northwest. CO and NW have been partners for a while, so I guess if NW and KLM entered the alliance, CO would be left out completely. Therefore they entered. I searched between CDG and MAD, and asked for direct flights, and this is what nwa.com says,

"No Matching Flights Found.... No Northwest Airlines, KLM Royal Dutch Airlines, or codeshare partner flights were found between Paris Aeroport - Charles De Gaulle, France (CDG) and Madrid, Spain (MAD) that matched your request."

I think things take time to harmonize, but since AF and KLM are already harmonized and KL and NW are harmonized, it would only make sense for NW and AF to be harmonized. I think I am going to write a letter to skyteam.

The reason why this problem is frusterating for me is because I want to fly a multi-segment flight. EWR--CDG--SVO--DTW. This is really hard to book all at once because not one airline will say that they serve these destinations, except for NW, but that requires flying KL and there is only one flight a day to/from Moscow, whereas, AF and their partnership with SU has 7 daily flights to from Moscow, thus allowing me to make my conection back the US on the same day!!!!



LH 442
User currently offlineMtyfreak From Mexico, joined Apr 2004, 377 posts, RR: 2
Reply 20, posted (9 years 9 months 3 hours ago) and read 1897 times:

I feel related to the whole thing, I´m an Aeromexico FF and I can´t book a CO flight on Aeromexico.com which is really a pain because I travel to Houston very often from MTY.

Skyteam is a large alliance but very thin as well.



Only here for the beer...
User currently offlineGokmengs From United States of America, joined Mar 2005, 1125 posts, RR: 2
Reply 21, posted (9 years 9 months 3 hours ago) and read 1876 times:

I guess everyone that posted about this subject agrees that the proposed benefits of skyteam are not fully presented to the customers, I believe the ultimate solution would be to put a purchase option on the downloadable skyteam timetable program(available on skyteam.com) and make it work like orbitz.com for example. I don't know if you guys tried that timetable available on skyteam.com but its great for finding the perfect skyteam flight to any destination served by the alliance. Just my 2 cents.


Gercekleri Tarih Yazar Tarihide Galatasaray
User currently offlineAirzim From Zimbabwe, joined Jun 2001, 1239 posts, RR: 1
Reply 22, posted (9 years 9 months 2 hours ago) and read 1852 times:

FlyCaledonian,

Once you make your booking on NW.com with your CO FF number in original booking, go back and re-choose your seats, once you've been confirmed, NW will recognize your Elite status and allow you to take the prime seats. I found the NW seat allocation on the website cumbersome and annoying but it will let you do it.

As for CO's entry into Skyteam, quite frankly everyone makes way too much out of alliances. Most major alliance that don't have revenue sharing, fight tooth and nail for every customers, even at the risk of their own "partners." This even happens in Star. United used to trash the price between AKL and MEL since they had an empty 744 flying across the Tasman. NZ was not too happy but they both competed for a limited number of customers.

Look how long it took CO to even join the original alliance with KLM/NW. KL wanted CO to transit passengers through AMS, CO told KLM to stuff it, they'd rather fly their own metal to places in Europe. I actually believe that CO only joined Skyteam as the lesser of other evils. Why would an airline want to share revenues with their partners when they can keep all the money themselves? Only in certain market segments does it make sense; those that can't justify direct service on their own.


User currently offlineB4real From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 2661 posts, RR: 5
Reply 23, posted (9 years 9 months 1 hour ago) and read 1807 times:

Quoting WhiskeyHotel (Thread starter):
You may modify your search criteria, or call 1-800-300-1547 for assistance." DL (SkyTeam member) and Copa (Codeshare partner 49% owned by CO) both fly to EZE, but apparently not as a CO numbered codeshare flight

You seem good @ answering your own question  Smile

Quoting WhiskeyHotel (Thread starter):
they never check availability on skyteam or codeshare partners unless you specifically request it.

Other SkyTeam carriers don't necessarily have that ability either. I know DL cannot. It has something to do with a system limitation as I was told once.

Quoting Phollingsworth (Reply 1):
They do not, however, have permission to codeshare outside of the US

DL has codeshares on NW to Japan from SEA/LAX/SFO/JFK (flight #s 7007, 7001, 7027, 7017) and on CO to BDA/AUA/other Caribbean destinations (flight #s 2605, 3308, etc.). Likely more non-domestic locations, that's just off the top of my head.

Quoting WhiskeyHotel (Reply 14):
Every time I try booking out of EDI, the price is exorbitant (Probably because of routing/fare rules) for flying on OK metal most of the way



B4REAL, spelled like it sounds
User currently offlineWhiskeyhotel From United States of America, joined Aug 2004, 283 posts, RR: 0
Reply 24, posted (9 years 9 months ago) and read 1779 times:

Huzzah...found a computer in SPI to fuel my Av-fetish.

Hjulicher, I wasn't saying that your claim was preposterous...I meant to imply that the situation which you brought to our attention was ridiculous...KL/AF need to get their act together in that department.

B4real, I wasn't implying that CO was unique amongst SkyTeam airlines in not checking availability on other carriers. I meant to show this as an example of the lack of harmonisation within SkyTeam. If you call a BD Diamond Club rep (*A) and check award availability, if they don't have flights where you want to go (or their flights are full), you can be sure that the diamond club rep will check availability on UA/LH/other *A carriers without you specifically asking them to. A friend of mine is BD Silver and frequently travels on *A partners.

FlyingTexan, I don't know if you've kept up with the reports on FT since the big DO, but it looks like EQMs are here to stay on CO. Good news for those booking on continental.com or flying any fare class on KL...bad news for those who have to book through corporate travel agencies (a good percentage of biz pax) or fly any of the other SkyTeam carriers other than KL on discount economy fares. Go figure.  sarcastic 

Anyhow, it's time for an evening walk on the beach and a Tecate. Think I'll be getting back to the unreal world.


25 Post contains images B4real : I wasn't saying it was easy either SkyTeam may have a bit more to grow... 4sure
26 Avek00 : SkyTeam is the MOST harmonized of the Big Three marketing gimmicks - with the exception of the new entrants (CO/NW/KL), SkyTeam is the ONLY gimmick t
27 Jano : So, when can I expect that European OK flights have NW or KL code too? It would helped me a lot since there are airports that KL does not serve, but O
28 DeltaMIA : DL can check directly with NW/CO and AZ. I find it easier to use CO and NW's system than DL's for award travel. It is more complicated to see award a
29 Sllevin : I know that some of the nwa.com issues are issues with their website. If you call up, they will book you on the Skyteam carriers. The nwa.com website
30 L410Turbolet : Jano, it's hard to say. Only AF seems to c/s a lot of OK-operated flights. Quite a few are c/s by DL and also MA. If that is any indication NW and CO
31 Whiskeyhotel : Avek00, SkyTeam may have been fairly harmonised prior to the entry of NW/CO/KL, but as those three airlines now make up a significant percentage of Sk
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