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British Airways Stopping Their Phoenix Flight?  
User currently offlineHAMAD From United Arab Emirates, joined Apr 2000, 1160 posts, RR: 7
Posted (9 years 5 months 2 weeks 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 8373 times:

I have a friend who is a flight attendant with southwest, and he told me that he heard that British Airways are going to stop their daily phoenix flight. Is that true? that would be really bad if it happens, as it is the only non-stop flight to Europe from Arizona


PHX - i miss spotting
52 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineHB-IWC From Indonesia, joined Sep 2000, 4504 posts, RR: 71
Reply 1, posted (9 years 5 months 2 weeks 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 8326 times:

If it were to happen, then British Airways would follow Lufthansa's lead. LH withdrew from the FRA-PHX route in February 2004. BA has previously withdrawn from San Diego, which used to be a tag on to the PHX flights, when the route was still served from Gatwick with DC10-30s and later with B744s.

User currently offlineJean Leloup From Canada, joined Apr 2001, 2116 posts, RR: 19
Reply 2, posted (9 years 5 months 2 weeks 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 8300 times:

Hard to imagine that there woudln't be enough tourists in the PHX area to make a Europe flight happen... so I take it that the problem is yield?


Next flight.... who knows.
User currently offlineChrisNH From United States of America, joined Jun 1999, 4116 posts, RR: 2
Reply 3, posted (9 years 5 months 2 weeks 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 8254 times:

'Yield' is a function of how profitable the seat is, correct? If a seat on that flight 'costs' $500--loaded with the cost of fuel, the cost of labor, etc.--and it is 'sold' for $800, then $300 is the yield, correct?

Now, it seems to me that 'yield' is likely to be at its best in markets where two conditions exist: Where the number of people that waht to board that plane is high...and the number of alternative means of travel (i.e. competing nonstops) is low.

So why doesn't that perfectly describe Phoenix???

Chris in NH


User currently offlineHB-IWC From Indonesia, joined Sep 2000, 4504 posts, RR: 71
Reply 4, posted (9 years 5 months 2 weeks 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 8221 times:

Quoting ChrisNH (Reply 3):
Now, it seems to me that 'yield' is likely to be at its best in markets where two conditions exist: Where the number of people that waht to board that plane is high...and the number of alternative means of travel (i.e. competing nonstops) is low.

So why doesn't that perfectly describe Phoenix???

For starters because, BA's PHX flights is not only attracting London-bound traffic, but also a multitude of connecting traffic, for which there's plenty of alternative travel options available. I'm not sure what the O&D numbers between London and Phoenix look like, but I don't believe those numbers alone would warrant a daily nonstop widebody flight.

A second aspect to be addressed is the amount of high-yielding premium traffic. Lufthansa stopped its flight first and farmost because it could use the resources in other parts of its network with a higher demand for front end seats. Why would BA be able to do what LH couldn't in terms of attracting F and J traffic?

Anybody in here knows whether the HP interline agreement is still in place?


User currently offlineElagabal From United Kingdom, joined Mar 2005, 201 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (9 years 5 months 2 weeks 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 8214 times:

Hi ChrisNH,

I'm not in the know on BA's route planning or day-to-day revenues, so everything that follows is speculation.  Smile

Still:

It's possible to have a relatively weak yield situation with a destination like (I assume) PHX if the people who want to travel are essentially tourists, like yours truly. Airlines make most of their money carrying premium travellers (first & business class). They can run a profit off cheap seats, certainly, but if you measure earnings as a proportion of revenue, the margins on premium tickets are higher. (Plain English: the swish service doesn't cost /that/ much more for the airline, relative to how much they can ask for it.)

Sure, if you have a bunch of ordinary folks with no other way to get to Europe, you can run a profit from packing a plane with relatively expensive coach seats. This works best if you fly a great fat plane to somewhere with a lot of beaches. Thing is, though, that BA could fly to somewhere else - let's say, Dubai - where there ARE businessmen willing to pay high prices, and in numbers. They only have so many aircraft, so figure: if you make a little money in one place, and a lot in another, where ya gonna go?

I do hope BA continue serving PHX - I've flown that route, very nice experience - but if they have to pull the plug, well, c'est la vie.


User currently offlineCornish From United Kingdom, joined Feb 2005, 8187 posts, RR: 54
Reply 6, posted (9 years 5 months 2 weeks 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 8187 times:

Elagabal is right in his logic.

Additionally, it may be felt that the numbers involved, premium or otherwise could be put on AA codeshares from ORD or DFW for example, freeing up the BA aircraft for another more profitable destination/service.



Just when I thought I could see light at the end of the tunnel, it was some B*****d with a torch bringing me more work
User currently offlineFlyCaledonian From United Kingdom, joined Dec 2003, 2090 posts, RR: 3
Reply 7, posted (9 years 5 months 2 weeks 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 8160 times:

If I remember rightly BA switched the daily three class 777 (No First) for a six times weekly four class 744 (With First) in the hope that it could sell more economy seats. I assume BA was having healthy cargo loads on the route too. The issue could be though that Rod Eddington is demanding that all parts of BA play their part in contributing to BA's overall profitability, with the stated aim of BA achieving a 10% return from its activities.

Now if the PHX service can channel premium passengers through LHR onto othr services it might not be so crucial for the PHX service to achieve that 10% return as it may be considered to add value to the network as a whole. But if a lot of that connecting traffic is in low-yielding economy, then it's a different matter. BA has shown with the dropping of JED, RUH, BOG and CCS that it won't maintain longhaul routes for the sake of it.

As Elagabal says, BA might consider that 744 - and it's scarce LHR slots - better utilised serving another destination. Don't forget, BA is set to add seven weekly services to India this Winter, with MAA increasing from twice weekly to six times weekly and BLR gaining a new thrice weekly service. Both routes are ideal for a 744 (Being capacity constrained), so BA withdrawing from PHX at the end of the Summer would free an aircraft and LHR slots. PVG services are due to launch in June - five times weekly - and BA freed up a 777 with the dropping of services to JED and RUH.

Guess we'll have to wait and see.



Let's Go British Caledonian!
User currently offlineAIR MALTA From Malta, joined Sep 2001, 2501 posts, RR: 1
Reply 8, posted (9 years 5 months 2 weeks 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 8118 times:

Don't you think that in the longer term, it won't be healthy to such cut routes. I have pointed it out many times in this forum. A lot of people in Europe don't think about BA when they want to travel. AF and LH come first because they have so many more destinations now. It is ok to drop loss making routes. But I don't think it is wise to drop routes that just make it. The added value of those routes would be the widely presence of the BA brand. And in the longer term, things could get better. Now in BOG and CCS, AF and LH will fill the gap making it harder for BA to re-enter the market again. That is what happened to KUL as well. I don't think operating KUL was that bad.


Next flights : BRU-ZRH-CAI (LX)/ BRU-FCO-TLV (AZ)
User currently offlineSpeedbird2155 From United Kingdom, joined Feb 2005, 878 posts, RR: 4
Reply 9, posted (9 years 5 months 2 weeks 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 8057 times:

Air Malta

Simply having a presence on a particular route when it doesn't make sense economically is not something that airlines will engage in, especially in times like these when they are trying to increase profitability and lower operating costs. As said above, if the aircraft and LHR slots can be better utilised, then it will be. Brand presence does you no good, if you go out of business. Also, because BA might potentially drop a route, doesn't mean loss of brand recognition, particularly in the US where BA codeshares on a number of services and passengers can use these flights to connect to BA mainline at any number of US airports.


User currently offlineFlyCaledonian From United Kingdom, joined Dec 2003, 2090 posts, RR: 3
Reply 10, posted (9 years 5 months 2 weeks 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 8052 times:

Air Malta, BA is operating from a slot constrained airport where it can't even base all its operations (Most Southern European flights are served from LGW). Plus the carrier under Bob Ayling, and Rod Eddington, decided to focus away from connecting traffic to O&D and Premium markets. BA slashed its Far East network because connecting via LHR just wasn't viable when compared to the more central locations of CDG/FRA/MUC. Why fly west to LHR from the Continent to fly back East to go to Asia when it can be quicker to go with AF or LH? BA has its critics for the strategy it pursues, but it is making money and wide network coverage does not simply make for a profitable carrier, especially when you're based at LHR. More destinations means more slots, or serving other destinations less frequently - and BA doesn't operate 68 flights a week from LHR to JFK/EWR because they don't make money. Overall it's that type of operation - good yield, good frequency - that BA views as adding more value to its network than a three times weekly 767 service to BOG and CCS. If PHX goes it is because BA believes it can make more money elsewhere.


Let's Go British Caledonian!
User currently offlineCornish From United Kingdom, joined Feb 2005, 8187 posts, RR: 54
Reply 11, posted (9 years 5 months 2 weeks 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 8031 times:

If phoenix is cut, doesn't that mean that a carrier can apply for another US city to serve the UK under Bermuda 2. I'm sure in the past, where carriers have completely pulled out of a city, leaving no UK service, then other carriers have applied for rights on another route.

Is this still the case?



Just when I thought I could see light at the end of the tunnel, it was some B*****d with a torch bringing me more work
User currently offlineFlyCaledonian From United Kingdom, joined Dec 2003, 2090 posts, RR: 3
Reply 12, posted (9 years 5 months 2 weeks 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 7980 times:

Yes, it would be Cornish, though it would have to be served from LGW unless it was a designated US gateway to be served from LHR. BA could only switch its PHX flights to LHR because it was the sole carrier on the route and it achieved a minimum number of passengers over three consecutive years.


Let's Go British Caledonian!
User currently offlineCornish From United Kingdom, joined Feb 2005, 8187 posts, RR: 54
Reply 13, posted (9 years 5 months 2 weeks 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 7951 times:

Quoting FlyCaledonian (Reply 12):
though it would have to be served from LGW unless it was a designated US gateway to be served from LHR. BA could only switch its PHX flights to LHR because it was the sole carrier on the route and it achieved a minimum number of passengers over three consecutive years

I thought as much. Would first rights go to any carrier wishing to take over operation of PHX-LON (presumably LGW)? With no obvious candidate to do so (unless VS or BD tried to take a punt on it), I guess then other carriers could apply for other cities. Can BA just apply for greater frequency on another US route as a replacement, or do other non-served cities get first call under Bermuda II or other carriers on routes they do not serve but has direct services (like say UA taking on DEN-LON)?



Just when I thought I could see light at the end of the tunnel, it was some B*****d with a torch bringing me more work
User currently offlineFlyCaledonian From United Kingdom, joined Dec 2003, 2090 posts, RR: 3
Reply 14, posted (9 years 5 months 2 weeks 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 7897 times:

BA can add capacity to other US cities it already serves regardless of Bermuda II. I still wonder if PHX could go to provide the slots and aircraft for MAA/BLR.

BD would unlikely want to apply for a service as their stated aim is for Heathrow services across the Atlantic, which they can't do under Bermuda II. LGW would involve setting up a new station, with no feed, so is unlikely. MAN services are covered by a separate Open Skies agreement with the US (That applis to all UK regional airports and STN).

VS might want to launch a new destination, but the only US destination that featured on VS's Top 10 wish list was ORD, and under Bermuda II VS can serve that route already, and from LHR. Is Fort Lauderdale a possability from LGW though?

I think if PHX was dropped you won't see another carrier step in, nor another gateway added. I don't think CLT has been replaced as a UK carrier designated gateway since BA dropped it. The last gateway to change was LAS, which VS was able to add when BA dropped PIT (VS initially lost out on the right to serve LAS when BA won the right to serve DEN when an additional gateway was up for grabs).



Let's Go British Caledonian!
User currently offlineFbgdavidson From United Kingdom, joined Oct 2004, 3707 posts, RR: 28
Reply 15, posted (9 years 5 months 2 weeks 5 days 6 hours ago) and read 7785 times:

I don't think BA will drop PHX, reading this months Highlife last night there was a feature actively promoting the destination


"My first job was selling doors, door to door, that's a tough job innit" - Bill Bailey
User currently offlineCornish From United Kingdom, joined Feb 2005, 8187 posts, RR: 54
Reply 16, posted (9 years 5 months 2 weeks 5 days 6 hours ago) and read 7709 times:

Thanks FlyCaledonian for the info. I don't think VS or BD would take it on - unless VS connected it as part of an additional LAS flight maybe.

Like you say, I can't realistically see any other US city being added in its place that isn't already served by a UK carrier apart from maybe Fort Lauderdale.

Interesting to see if it really does go - BA does need those India slots from somehwere - when are they due to start those new services again ?



Just when I thought I could see light at the end of the tunnel, it was some B*****d with a torch bringing me more work
User currently offlineByrdluvs747 From United States of America, joined Jul 2004, 2360 posts, RR: 1
Reply 17, posted (9 years 5 months 2 weeks 5 days 6 hours ago) and read 7653 times:

I don't think BA will drop PHX as well. If I remember correctly, before BA dropped SAN altogether, they used to fly from SAN to PHX to pick up more pax.

Now BA uses PHX to connect pax to SAN and the Grand Canyon. It's more convenient to fly PHX-SAN on HP's A320's than from LAX-SAN on AA's RJ's. It's also more beneficial to BA since, HP has more intra-southwest capacity to SAN than AA does.



The 747: The hands who designed it were guided by god.
User currently offlineCornish From United Kingdom, joined Feb 2005, 8187 posts, RR: 54
Reply 18, posted (9 years 5 months 2 weeks 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 7635 times:

Quoting Byrdluvs747 (Reply 17):
Now BA uses PHX to connect pax to SAN and the Grand Canyon. It's more convenient to fly PHX-SAN on HP's A320's than from LAX-SAN on AA's RJ's. It's also more beneficial to BA since, HP has more intra-southwest capacity to SAN than AA does.

But they have added an extra daily flight from LHR to LAX last year. Maybe they feel that the numbers going on to SAN can be served adequately with AA from that direction - esp. if PHX itself isn't performing.

If BA quickly needs the slots for somewhere it feels is more lucrative (like India) then don't be surprised if it dorps a niche destination like PHX.



Just when I thought I could see light at the end of the tunnel, it was some B*****d with a torch bringing me more work
User currently offlineHB-IWC From Indonesia, joined Sep 2000, 4504 posts, RR: 71
Reply 19, posted (9 years 5 months 2 weeks 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 7632 times:

Quoting Cornish (Reply 16):
Interesting to see if it really does go - BA does need those India slots from somehwere - when are they due to start those new services again ?

I don't think the slots are that much of a problem for BA. If worse comes to worst, they can always swap some domestic or European slot for the Indian services. There might, however, be an issue with available resources to operate the seven extra longhauls. It is unlikely that BA has an extra aircraft just sitting around for these extra services, and there's only so much one can achieve with optimising current schedules to once again reinforce daily utilization.

In general, however, if BA's analysts have come to the conclusion that PHX doesn't contribute enough to the network as a whole and to BA's bottomline in particular, and if they calculated that the available resources can be deployed with a higher return elsewhere in the airline's system, it's pretty sure the BA management will follow its analysts and cut PHX as a destination. After all, they've done it before and for exactly the same reason with SAN.


User currently offlineCornish From United Kingdom, joined Feb 2005, 8187 posts, RR: 54
Reply 20, posted (9 years 5 months 2 weeks 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 7620 times:

Quoting HB-IWC (Reply 19):
I don't think the slots are that much of a problem for BA. If worse comes to worst, they can always swap some domestic or European slot for the Indian services. There might, however, be an issue with available resources to operate the seven extra longhauls. It is unlikely that BA has an extra aircraft just sitting around for these extra services, and there's only so much one can achieve with optimising current schedules to once again reinforce daily utilization.

True enough - it probably is the aircraft that is needed more so than the slots. Although if they took the aircraft they may well use those PHX slots for the India flights (although i don't know what time of day they leave LON).



Just when I thought I could see light at the end of the tunnel, it was some B*****d with a torch bringing me more work
User currently offlineStirling From Italy, joined Jun 2004, 3943 posts, RR: 21
Reply 21, posted (9 years 5 months 2 weeks 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 7539 times:

Phoenix is like the Canary Islands......without the Ocean.

What I mean is that, and it's entirely MY OWN speculation, that Phoenix is more of a domestic draw than it's northern neighbor Vegas which is a truly global destination.
If the Canaries are so popular, then why are there NO flights from the USA? I refer to the Phoenix enigma....

Phoenix does not go after that same low-end market that seems to flock to Florida or Casino destinations. Scottsdale? Hello! Prepare to drop 150USD to 200USD a night to stay in someplace respectable in March. Phoenix has become the backyard of those golf-loving denizens of Southern California.
As big as Phoenix is....it's growth is very unusual, it's hard to compare Phoenix and other US cities of the same size....which usually have a larger pool of "OLD" Money....which leads to higher-yield passengers. Airline traffic follows business. Someone once asked why CVG is one of Delta's hubs. The answer is found in any number of the 20 or so odd products of theirs that the average American comes into contact with each day. Proctor and Gamble.

Phoenix is like that kid in the sixth grade, who's already six foot tall. Give Phoenix time to grow into the body.......

Last thing. Weather. Too damn hot in the summer. Even the locals don't want to be there when it's 115F outside.... unlike up there in the air-conditioned 24hr paradise of Las Vegas.

Give Phoenix time.



Delete this User
User currently offlineMasseyBrown From United States of America, joined Dec 2002, 5438 posts, RR: 7
Reply 22, posted (9 years 5 months 2 weeks 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 7428 times:

HB-IWC, yes, the HP-BA codeshare is still in place and was recently (last month or so) expanded to include a few more California and Nevada points.


I love long German words like 'Freundschaftsbezeigungen'.
User currently offlineAcefreighter From United Kingdom, joined Nov 2003, 179 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (9 years 5 months 2 weeks 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 7367 times:

BA is not going to pull off Phoenix. It is doing well.

Don't believe what a Southwest flight attendent tells you !!!


User currently offlineByrdluvs747 From United States of America, joined Jul 2004, 2360 posts, RR: 1
Reply 24, posted (9 years 5 months 2 weeks 5 days 3 hours ago) and read 7307 times:

Quoting Stirling (Reply 21):
Last thing. Weather. Too damn hot in the summer. Even the locals don't want to be there when it's 115F outside.... unlike up there in the air-conditioned 24hr paradise of Las Vegas.

LOL! So true. That's why I fly to SAN almost every weekend during the summer. However, having lived in Vegas and now PHX, I can tell you that LAS gets some nasty summer weather as well.

Quoting Acefreighter (Reply 23):
Don't believe what a Southwest flight attendent tells you !!!

I was going to say that as well, but as soon as you mention WN in the negative the WN cult members start jumping your case.



The 747: The hands who designed it were guided by god.
25 Post contains images JGPH1A : If you mean the codeshare agreement, yes it is still in place - BA puts their code on HP flights from PHX to LAS, SNA, LAX, BUR and other places in S
26 Byrdluvs747 : The codeshare covers PHX-TUC/LAS/SLC/ABQ/RNO/BUR/OAK/ONT/SNA/SJC/SAC and LAS-LAX/SFO.
27 ANstar : I see Detroit or Baltimore going before Phoenix.
28 MAH4546 : FLL can be served from LHR.
29 BA : If BA does drop PHX, it would render its code-share agreement with America West pretty much useless. If that happens, then I think it would be a smart
30 UAFedExFlyboy : I find it hard to believe that BA would be discontinuing service to PHX. I work at the gates adjacent to the one BA goes out of everyday, except wedne
31 Post contains images Beany : Right then, first time post from a long time lurker so be gentle!! I have spent a lot of hours twiddling my thumbs on BA288 and BA289 as my girlfriend
32 Caspian27 : It would seem to me that with the proximity of the Grand Canyon (one of the most visited tourist destinations anywhere), Sedona, scenic high-desert, D
33 AV8AJET : Beany I totally agree with you having taken this flight twice last year, in March on the 772 then again in Oct with the 744 and not a single seat left
34 ChrisNH : OK...so let's go on the assumption that BA is abandoning this route because the 'yield' isn't there. Isn't this the kind of thing they (or any airline
35 LHSTR : This was surely done by both LH and BA. But it is still a forecast. Just think that one C-Class pax less than expected reduces revenue by about $1500
36 094147 : Beany is totally correct. According to published reports in the Arizona Media, the meeting with our Govenor Janet and Chairman Marty were "Smashing".
37 Post contains images Beany : AV8AJET I think you probably have more chance of seeing Elvis singing on the Moon than Virgin flying to Phoenix. VS seem to stick to prime business ro
38 Aussiestu : Somebody knows somebody who works for Southwest who said BA are going to drop PHX? HELLO! Unless you are Willie Walsh or Rod Eddington then its all ju
39 Jacobin777 : Couple of questions.. 1) why does BA have codeshare with HP, when BA is part of OneWorld? Wouldn't AA be able to cover some of the codeshare flights?
40 Tango-Bravo : Yield is simply the amount of revenue generated by a flight, typically measured in terms Revenue per Available Seat Mile (RASM). Yields in a given ma
41 VS11 : Many of these flights are "legacy" flights, which were launched many many years ago when the world, and in this case US and UK, aviation industries w
42 Post contains images Monkeyboi : I work for BA and there hasn't even been so much as a whisper about dropping the route. Every time I have worked this flight it has been full. Before
43 FlyCaledonian : Monkeyboi, any BA flights to the US in your opinion that aren't going out full, especially up front, and that could be considered at risk instead? I'v
44 Fokkerf28 : BA is doing well in Phoenix and usually carries a full load plus a lot of cargo. The flight has been weight restricted many times and cargo left behin
45 FutureATP : Fokker It was also my understanding when I worked at HP the BA flight was usually pretty full. I know I off-loaded plenty of bags from LAX, SAN, etc.
46 Phxairfan : Are you kidding 110 is perfect weather, and 115 just makes you feel nice and warm. I love it. Yes I'm serious.
47 Post contains images Bridogger6 : I am completely with Phxairfan, I love the heat. And so I'm not entirely off topic, I have also noted that the BA flights out of Phoenix are sent off
48 HB-IWC : Yield functions are not time invariant, but are, to the contrary, very dynamic. That is why, for sure with an airline like British Airways, any route
49 Fokkerf28 : Future ATP You are correct, they went to the 747-400 so they could carry more freight. The 777 was never weight restricted out of Phoenix, in fact BA
50 Beany : There are various reasons Lufthansa pulled out of the PHX route. Firstly, they didn't have the codeshare agreement with HP where as BA do. This tende
51 San747 : I just saw two BA 744s on the ground at PHX at the same time yesterday... I don't think they're going away...
52 N1120A : AA's position at PHX is much, much, much weaker than HP's. Additionally, codesharing with HP allows BA a lot of LAS access (again, much stronger posi
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