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UA To Start Second IAD GRU Flight  
User currently offlineUnitedtristar From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Posted (9 years 5 months 2 weeks 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 4813 times:

Sorry if it was already posted, I looked and couldn't find it!

http://biz.yahoo.com/prnews/050404/cgm045.html?.v=3

Looks like AA won't be getting those dormant UA slots after all!

-m

 airplane 

32 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlinePPVRA From Brazil, joined Nov 2004, 8964 posts, RR: 39
Reply 1, posted (9 years 5 months 2 weeks 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 4786 times:

Great to see them doing well and expanding on the IAD-GRU leg! Too bad it's just another 763, but that's better than nothing  Smile

Cheers,
PPVRA



"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
User currently offlineZvezda From Lithuania, joined Aug 2004, 10511 posts, RR: 64
Reply 2, posted (9 years 5 months 2 weeks 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 4779 times:

I would have thought that LAX-GRU would be a better market for UA than a second IAD-GRU, but LAX-GRU exceeds the range capability of the B767-300ER. UA might not be able to fill a B777-200 on LAX-GRU. Where is a B787-8 when you need one?

BTW, the article doesn't indicate whether or not the new service is daily.


User currently offlineUnitedTristar From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 3, posted (9 years 5 months 2 weeks 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 4767 times:

Quoting Zvezda (Reply 2):
BTW, the article doesn't indicate whether or not the new service is daily.

Actually Zvezda the title of the article is

"United Airlines Adds Second Daily Washington Dulles-Sao Paulo Flight"

 Smile

-m

 airplane 


User currently offlineZvezda From Lithuania, joined Aug 2004, 10511 posts, RR: 64
Reply 4, posted (9 years 5 months 2 weeks 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 4741 times:

UnitedTristar, you're right, of course. I carefully read the body of the article looking for frequency and didn't bother checking the headline.  ashamed 

User currently offlinePPVRA From Brazil, joined Nov 2004, 8964 posts, RR: 39
Reply 5, posted (9 years 5 months 2 weeks 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 4722 times:

Quoting Zvezda (Reply 2):
UA might not be able to fill a B777-200 on LAX-GRU.

RG's GRU-LAX-NRT is always full, and they are not daily service either. I bet UA could fill them well and I think that would have been a better idea, but I don't know, maybe they don't have available aircraft...

Cheers,
PPVRA



"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
User currently offlineErikwilliam From Brazil, joined Mar 2004, 2152 posts, RR: 11
Reply 6, posted (9 years 5 months 2 weeks 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 4631 times:

Quoting Zvezda (Reply 2):
UA might not be able to fill a B777-200 on LAX-GRU

yes they´ll. The majority of people flying from GRU to LAX is going to NRT after, the same with JL and GRU-JFK-NRT, pretty good loads on both legs



Dida, Cafu, Lucio, Roque Junior, Roberto Carlo, Emerson, Ze Roberto, Ronaldinho, Kaka, Adriano, Robinho, Ronaldo
User currently offlineMAH4546 From Sweden, joined Jan 2001, 32782 posts, RR: 72
Reply 7, posted (9 years 5 months 2 weeks 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 4627 times:

Quoting Unitedtristar (Thread starter):
Looks like AA won't be getting those dormant UA slots after all!

Not nessecairlily, because it doesn't look like DL is going to be using the other five dormant UA slots.



a.
User currently offlineJrlander From United States of America, joined Aug 1999, 1105 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (9 years 5 months 2 weeks 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 4595 times:

I think DL has just requested an extension until October, when they will have a plane available. They are working to convert some more 767-300ER's to international configuration. They do hope to restart service to GIG, though.

User currently offlineDAL767400ER From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 9, posted (9 years 5 months 2 weeks 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 4571 times:

Quoting Jrlander (Reply 8):
I think DL has just requested an extension until October, when they will have a plane available. They are working to convert some more 767-300ER's to international configuration. They do hope to restart service to GIG, though.

You are correct about DL delaying GIG service. DL wanted to start this service in June, but because of UA delaying the DOT decision, they instead requested to start ATL-SVO, because they had already given up hopes of ATL-GIG. When the DOT finally decided to give DL the traffic rights, DL had already gotten ATL-SVO, and didn't have the necessary aircraft and requestd to delay the start until October (still no decision on that). However, the planes used for Rio would be 763ERs that only operate summer services to Europe (ATL-BCN/FCO, 4th LGW flight), and the reconfigured planes would come for the next summer.
On the topic, I find quite interesting that UA is actually starting to use some of their frequencies. Now with UA using 7 frequencies, how much of their frequencies would be left for DL to compete about?


User currently offlineMAH4546 From Sweden, joined Jan 2001, 32782 posts, RR: 72
Reply 10, posted (9 years 5 months 2 weeks 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 4541 times:

Quoting Jrlander (Reply 8):
I think DL has just requested an extension until October, when they will have a plane available. They are working to convert some more 767-300ER's to international configuration. They do hope to restart service to GIG, though.

Yes, that is true.

However, IIRC, because they did not start the service in June, the slots are not theirs and go back into the pool. Now they and AA must compete with each other for them. Delta definitley has the upper hand, though.

The US-Brazil bilatteral really needs to be updated, though. AA would love to go into many of the smaller Brazilian markets, like Manaus and Belem, but can't because of it.



a.
User currently offlineFlyPNS1 From United States of America, joined Nov 1999, 6608 posts, RR: 24
Reply 11, posted (9 years 5 months 2 weeks 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 4440 times:

This certainly does put a twist on the fight for frequencies between AA, DL and UA. With UA using these seven, it leaves only seven remaining unused. If UA can make a strong enough case that they will use those remaining seven within a reasonable amount of time, then neither AA or DL will get them.

If UA can't keep those frequencies, I'd expect DL to get the five they want. DL's case would be way stronger than AA given that AA has far more frequencies than DL at the present time.

I agree with MAH4546 that the bilateral between the US and Brazil desperately needs expansion. The number of frequencies available for US carriers is far too few given the amount of traffic between the US and Brazil.


User currently offlineIncitatus From Brazil, joined Feb 2005, 4014 posts, RR: 13
Reply 12, posted (9 years 5 months 2 weeks 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 4413 times:

If the bilateral gets updated, this new second IAD-GRU will suffer a very quick death. United is only adding it to prevent other airlines from getting their hands on UA's dormant frequencies.


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User currently offlineMAH4546 From Sweden, joined Jan 2001, 32782 posts, RR: 72
Reply 13, posted (9 years 5 months 2 weeks 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 4361 times:

Quoting Incitatus (Reply 12):
If the bilateral gets updated, this new second IAD-GRU will suffer a very quick death. United is only adding it to prevent other airlines from getting their hands on UA's dormant frequencies.

Very true. I doubt this flight will even last past the winter 05/06 timetable. There really is very little market for a second daily flight. I think UA would have been better off bringing back MIA- or JFK-GRU.



a.
User currently offlineDaron4000 From United States of America, joined Mar 2005, 712 posts, RR: 1
Reply 14, posted (9 years 5 months 2 weeks 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 4260 times:

It seemed like the airplane would be laying over in GRU for a long time? Why is this?

User currently offlineUA744Flagship From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 15, posted (9 years 5 months 2 weeks 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 4251 times:

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 13):
Very true. I doubt this flight will even last past the winter 05/06 timetable. There really is very little market for a second daily flight. I think UA would have been better off bringing back MIA- or JFK-GRU.

Contrary to perception, Dulles is a great hub for UA (physical facilites aside). Pretty good yield and strong traffic flows.

The current IAD-GRU performs very strongly. JFK/MIA-GRU would be idiotic as it wouldn't capitalize on UA's growth at IAD...


User currently offlineIncitatus From Brazil, joined Feb 2005, 4014 posts, RR: 13
Reply 16, posted (9 years 5 months 2 weeks 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 4135 times:

Quoting UA744Flagship (Reply 15):
Contrary to perception, Dulles is a great hub for UA (physical facilites aside). Pretty good yield and strong traffic flows.

The current IAD-GRU performs very strongly. JFK/MIA-GRU would be idiotic as it wouldn't capitalize on UA's growth at IAD...

I can agree with that provided the following bits of info:
(i) List of additional destinations that will connect to the new flight and do not connect to the current flight due to the long connect time (I'm guessing none).
(ii) Market size of the local IAD-GRU market (I'm guessing low double digits per day).

If UA wanted to improve its product and availability on the route, it should have placed with 777 with more seats and a real first class product in place of those miserable "F" seats of the 767-300s.



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User currently offlineBicoastal From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 17, posted (9 years 5 months 2 weeks 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 4116 times:

This is excellent news. The Dulles Sao Paulo/Rio flight is always packed during the winter. This new departure time is perfect for United's mega bank of flights to/from Dulles (15:00 to 19:00). Once United emerges from bankruptcy, expect new long range aircraft orders (possibly Airbus in return for exit financing) that can be used to enhance the product on this route.

User currently offlineMAH4546 From Sweden, joined Jan 2001, 32782 posts, RR: 72
Reply 18, posted (9 years 5 months 2 weeks 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 4084 times:

The new UA flight on IAD-GRU is going to do little but hurt yields. There is definitley a market for DC-Brazil traffic, but one daily flight is more than suffice. The new flight opens no new connecting oppurtunities, and even if it does fill, it will erode yields that UA has on IAD-GRU. The only reason they are bothering with this flight is because they were in jeopardy of losing their dormant frequencies, which are quite valuable. Starting JFK/MIA-GRU, on the otherhand, would bring them back to Sao Paulo's two biggest long-haul O&D markets, and really give Varig some much needed help to fill demand in the market. I don't think they would ever start either flight again, but I do think it would have been better use of the dormant slots.

Also, today UA filed with DOT with reference to the unused frequencies:
http://dmses.dot.gov/docimages/p80/323612.pdf

UA claims they have no perference over giving them to DL or AA, though there is an obvious bias to AA in the document. Delta wants permanent allocation, while American wants temporary allocation. That gives AA the upper hand, because DL is unlikely to get permanent allocation. AA also already has a station in GIG, while DL doesn't.



a.
User currently offlineFlyPNS1 From United States of America, joined Nov 1999, 6608 posts, RR: 24
Reply 19, posted (9 years 5 months 2 weeks 3 days 20 hours ago) and read 3929 times:

Delta wants permanent allocation, while American wants temporary allocation. That gives AA the upper hand, because DL is unlikely to get permanent allocation.

That's actually not true. The DOT's initial award (for a June 1st start) was a permanent award to Delta.

The DOT actually prefers permanent awards. Temporary awards are a pain for the DOT because it just creates more hassle when the frequencies become available further down the road.


User currently offlineBicoastal From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 20, posted (9 years 5 months 2 weeks 3 days 20 hours ago) and read 3925 times:

United hub to Varig hub has more than enough connecting opportunities to fill two flights a day each way from Dulles (IAD) to Sao Paulo (GRU). I know from first hand experience that these flights are packed daily during the winter. Plus the aircraft are filled with cargo and I'm sure United cargo sales will fill the second flight, too.

User currently offlineTonytifao From Brazil, joined Mar 2005, 1024 posts, RR: 0
Reply 21, posted (9 years 5 months 2 weeks 3 days 20 hours ago) and read 3914 times:

Did I get this right? United will add additional flight from IAD to GRU, but on Varig?

User currently offlineTonytifao From Brazil, joined Mar 2005, 1024 posts, RR: 0
Reply 22, posted (9 years 5 months 2 weeks 3 days 20 hours ago) and read 3906 times:

Quoting Bicoastal (Reply 20):
United hub to Varig hub has more than enough connecting opportunities to fill two flights a day each way from Dulles (IAD) to Sao Paulo (GRU). I know from first hand experience that these flights are packed daily during the winter. Plus the aircraft are filled with cargo and I'm sure United cargo sales will fill the second flight, too.

This is true. Flying to Brazil during Xmas time is a mess. All flights are completely full.

AA should start flying back to CNF.


User currently offlineHardiwv From Brazil, joined Oct 2004, 8780 posts, RR: 49
Reply 23, posted (9 years 5 months 2 weeks 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 3856 times:

Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 11):
I agree with MAH4546 that the bilateral between the US and Brazil desperately needs expansion. The number of frequencies available for US carriers is far too few given the amount of traffic between the US and Brazil.

I also agree. The US-Brazil bilateral needs an urgent revision, and it would be important to expand flights to medium-sized destinations in Brazil such as MAO, FOR, CNF and SSA (which could fit the profile of flights such as CO 757).
Of course, with limited positions, all airlines will want to capitalise on the highly profitable flights to GRU.

Quoting Bicoastal (Reply 17):
This new departure time is perfect for United's mega bank of flights to/from Dulles (15:00 to 19:00).



Quoting Bicoastal (Reply 20):
United hub to Varig hub has more than enough connecting opportunities to fill two flights a day each way from Dulles (IAD) to Sao Paulo (GRU). I know from first hand experience that these flights are packed daily during the winter. Plus the aircraft are filled with cargo and I'm sure United cargo sales will fill the second flight, too.

Also agree that UA's move was correct. Flights IAD-GRU have very high yields, excellent performance on business/first, and are almost always packed (UA 2004 load performance on the route was 92%).

We could also expect a new daily JJ flight to the US in 2005 (GIG-MIA?). LAX-GRU remains underserved and RG could upgrade its flights.

Rgs,


User currently offlineUnitedTristar From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 24, posted (9 years 5 months 2 weeks 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 3837 times:

Quoting Tonytifao (Reply 21):
Did I get this right? United will add additional flight from IAD to GRU, but on Varig?

No its a UA flight but they will code share with RG.

-m

 airplane 


25 Post contains images UnitedTristar : And it looks like UA will start additional service from Brazil in addition to the current service with in the next year! Directly from the DOT filing
26 Incitatus : Hardiw: Are you saying the passenger load factor on that route was 92% over the year? I find that surprising. From UA's monthly traffic press release
27 Hardiwv : Incitatus, the figure was for January/05: UA load factor to Brazil in January/05 was 92%, while UA's load factor for its world network was 76.1% and
28 Hoya : From where is UA getting the extra plane from? I thought that they were experiencing a shortage of widebody international aircraft. Are they convertin
29 Hardiwv : Good questions. But I think they have time to sort it out as the second flights IAD-GRU will only start 31 October/05. I expect a convertion of a dom
30 Bicoastal : Because this new flight begins in October when the busy European travel season is ending, the aircraft will likely come from one of the Atlantic route
31 Hardiwv : There is a lack of nonstop flight between US's West Coast and Brazil. Currently the only flight is RG's GRU-LAX, which is constantly overbooked. If I
32 2travel2know : Yes, early 90's with a B747SP. Right now the only international daily options for LAX > GRU (I mean not changing in a US airport) are CM via Panamá
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