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GOL Makes Proposal To Buy Varig.  
User currently offlinePPVRA From Brazil, joined Nov 2004, 8875 posts, RR: 40
Posted (9 years 2 weeks 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 3345 times:

Looks like Varig is attracting quite a bit of attention-- yesterday GOL turned in a proposal to Mr. Martins, RG's CEO, for the control of the airline. The proposal is reported to be currently under scrutiny and no more information was available as of yet.

This brings a total of four potential investors, German Efromovich (Ocean Air), Nélson Tanure (Jornal do Brasil), EuroAtlantic/Pestana group, and another (Portuguese) that has remained unnamed.

http://advillage.uol.com.br/adCmsDoc...Show.aspx?documento=12252&Area=728

Cheers,
PPVRA


"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
54 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineHardiwv From Brazil, joined Oct 2004, 8780 posts, RR: 50
Reply 1, posted (9 years 2 weeks 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 3310 times:

PPVRA:

Tks for the breaking news.

VARIG is an airline with great potential, but it lacks management (something GOL has to offer!).

GOL and RG would make a perfect combination, with two different types of products in the market. GOL also has a fleet compatible with RG (both operate a fleet of all-Boeing aircraft), and 20% of GOL is owned by one of RG's major foreign creditors: ILC. It seems an interesting possibility.

Rgs,


User currently offlineGlennpower From Brazil, joined Jul 2004, 102 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (9 years 2 weeks 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 3275 times:

Hardiw,

Breaking news

Check the tam flights thread,i posted message about GOL interested in RG a whole 7 minutes before PPVRA.

cheers.


User currently offlinePPVRA From Brazil, joined Nov 2004, 8875 posts, RR: 40
Reply 3, posted (9 years 2 weeks 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 3228 times:

Quoting Glennpower (Reply 2):
Check the tam flights thread,i posted message about GOL interested in RG a whole 7 minutes before PPVRA.

Oh man! a whole 7 minutes? Sorry, I only saw your post after I posted this one  Wink

Cheers,
PPVRA



"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
User currently offlineErikwilliam From Brazil, joined Mar 2004, 2152 posts, RR: 12
Reply 4, posted (9 years 2 weeks 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 3211 times:

A thing to remember, if GOL buys Varig, then we would have a compny with more than 50% of market share, and by the regulating laws of CADE, it can not happen, but let´s not forget what happend with AMBEV, when they join, the government gave them the approval, and we had a company with almost 70% of the market.


Dida, Cafu, Lucio, Roque Junior, Roberto Carlo, Emerson, Ze Roberto, Ronaldinho, Kaka, Adriano, Robinho, Ronaldo
User currently offlinePPVRA From Brazil, joined Nov 2004, 8875 posts, RR: 40
Reply 5, posted (9 years 2 weeks 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 3210 times:

More news on it:

Now GOL is saying that an eventual acquisition of RG would only happen if RG agreed to change to an Low cost/low fare philosophy.

IMHO, that completely shut the door for GOL, but we'll see.... my hopes are still with Efromovich though.

Cheers,
PPVRA



"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
User currently offlineHardiwv From Brazil, joined Oct 2004, 8780 posts, RR: 50
Reply 6, posted (9 years 2 weeks 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 3206 times:

Quoting Erikwilliam (Reply 4):
if GOL buys Varig, then we would have a compny with more than 50% of market share, and by the regulating laws of CADE, it can not happen,

RG already had more than 70% market share in Brazil...I dont think CADE will be a problem...


User currently offlineErikwilliam From Brazil, joined Mar 2004, 2152 posts, RR: 12
Reply 7, posted (9 years 2 weeks 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 3198 times:

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 5):
IMHO, that completely shut the door for GOL, but we'll see.... my hopes are still with Efromovich though.

that´s what I posted on the TAM thread, GOL buying Varig is just a nonsense that goes against all of GOL´s philosofhy, unless we had a low cost flight to JFK with the 777, only peanuts and a small cheese and ham bread on the flight.



Dida, Cafu, Lucio, Roque Junior, Roberto Carlo, Emerson, Ze Roberto, Ronaldinho, Kaka, Adriano, Robinho, Ronaldo
User currently offlineHardiwv From Brazil, joined Oct 2004, 8780 posts, RR: 50
Reply 8, posted (9 years 2 weeks 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 3186 times:

Quoting Erikwilliam (Reply 7):
GOL buying Varig is just a nonsense that goes against all of GOL´s philosofhy

I dont agree. There are many legacy carriers which also have their own LCC (e.g. KLM and Transavia or UA and Ted). They operate under two different business models. The other way around could also happen: a LCC managing a legacy carrier. I dont think GOL would change RG product, on the contrary, the airlines would operate as separate carriers, but under one management structure. It would be the perfect way out for RG to keep its corporate identity.

I still think that GOL and RG could be a perfect match.

Rgs,


User currently offlineGlennpower From Brazil, joined Jul 2004, 102 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (9 years 2 weeks 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 3182 times:

PPVRA,

Glad you have a sense of humour,I enjoy reading your posts along with erikwilliam,JJMNGR,incitatus and Hardiwv.

Best wishes to you all.


User currently offlinePPVRA From Brazil, joined Nov 2004, 8875 posts, RR: 40
Reply 10, posted (9 years 2 weeks 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 3182 times:

Quoting Erikwilliam (Reply 7):
that´s what I posted on the TAM thread, GOL buying Varig is just a nonsense that goes against all of GOL´s philosofhy, unless we had a low cost flight to JFK with the 777, only peanuts and a small cheese and ham bread on the flight.

They could do like VS does-- long haul service airline and local LCCs for domestic/intra-european flights.

As I see, the problem will be with FRB approving this, I doubt they ever would agree to turn RG into an LCC (that doesn't sound right either).

Cheers,
PPVRA

Edit: I enjoy your posts as well, Glenn!
Edit2: Good point Hardi!

[Edited 2005-04-05 17:07:38]


"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
User currently offlineErikwilliam From Brazil, joined Mar 2004, 2152 posts, RR: 12
Reply 11, posted (9 years 2 weeks 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 3160 times:

Quoting Hardiwv (Reply 6):
RG already had more than 70% market share in Brazil...I dont think CADE will be a problem...

No they don´t. They have it in intl flights.
Also, if U grown from natural basis to 99,99% of the market lucky you, but U can not buy a company and then have more then 50% of the market.

There lays the problem.



Dida, Cafu, Lucio, Roque Junior, Roberto Carlo, Emerson, Ze Roberto, Ronaldinho, Kaka, Adriano, Robinho, Ronaldo
User currently offlineHardiwv From Brazil, joined Oct 2004, 8780 posts, RR: 50
Reply 12, posted (9 years 2 weeks 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 3141 times:

Quoting Erikwilliam (Reply 11):
No they don´t. They have it in intl flights

RG had domestic market share of about 70% in the past (combining at the time Cruzeiro'as take over, Rio Sul and Nordeste). If I'm not mistaken RG even reached a peak domestic market share of almost 80%.

Of course, RG's international market share at one time was close to 100% and now is about 83%.

Rgs,


User currently offlineErikwilliam From Brazil, joined Mar 2004, 2152 posts, RR: 12
Reply 13, posted (9 years 2 weeks 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 3122 times:

Quoting Hardiwv (Reply 12):
RG had domestic market share of about 70% in the past (combining at the time Cruzeiro'as take over, Rio Sul and Nordeste). If I'm not mistaken RG even reached a peak domestic market share of almost 80%.

But they had it because they were the oldest company in the country, that grew alone, without competition, it´s not their fault if nobody wants to enter the market.
That´s why CADE has been created, to regulate.
Can give U an example, Nestlé is trying to buy GAROTO, a brazilian chocolate manufacturer. CADE is not allowing them, they even demanded Nestlé to sell Garoto, otherwise, they´d have to pay several fines and face a lawsuit.
But in the meantime, Nestlé is f**ing up the brand, and the family that owned Garoto alredy spent the money, and as they can´t return it to Nestlé, Nestlé will have to sell the company. Hope I made myself explanatory, it can be a bit confusing sometimes.



Dida, Cafu, Lucio, Roque Junior, Roberto Carlo, Emerson, Ze Roberto, Ronaldinho, Kaka, Adriano, Robinho, Ronaldo
User currently offlinePPVRA From Brazil, joined Nov 2004, 8875 posts, RR: 40
Reply 14, posted (9 years 2 weeks 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 3113 times:

Question:

Did Varig, Rio Sul and Nordeste count as one airline or three? If it counted as three, then GOL and Varig could keep their separate identities and still be legal under the law. Anyone knows if that would be possible?

Thanks in advance,
PPVRA



"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
User currently offlineIncitatus From Brazil, joined Feb 2005, 3964 posts, RR: 13
Reply 15, posted (9 years 2 weeks 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 3109 times:

Quoting Hardiwv (Reply 8):
I still think that GOL and RG could be a perfect match.

Gol would bring cost controls and planning sanity to Varig.
I heard a story about the RG pilots that are qualified to fly the 737NGs. Varig tries to keep a single pool of 737 pilots, but not all of them are NG rated.
Sometimes a plane is grounded for lack of qualified pilots until someone can deadhead to get it going again. There are only 3 or 4 NG 737s and about 30 non-NGs.


User currently offlineErikwilliam From Brazil, joined Mar 2004, 2152 posts, RR: 12
Reply 16, posted (9 years 2 weeks 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 3094 times:

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 10):
They could do like VS does-- long haul service airline and local LCCs for domestic/intra-european flights.

Now, that would be amazing, just amazing, and still be on StarAlliance, just fabulous.

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 10):
As I see, the problem will be with FRB approving this, I doubt they ever would agree to turn RG into an LCC (that doesn't sound right either).

Agreed, I don´t think FRB even aproves to change the paint colour of the walls, what can say about selling Varig.

I think they´re just waiting for the situation the get worse and worse and then to pressure the government with employments and all those talks, sorry, but I can´t think of a diferent scenario there.



Dida, Cafu, Lucio, Roque Junior, Roberto Carlo, Emerson, Ze Roberto, Ronaldinho, Kaka, Adriano, Robinho, Ronaldo
User currently offlineErikwilliam From Brazil, joined Mar 2004, 2152 posts, RR: 12
Reply 17, posted (9 years 2 weeks 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 3075 times:

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 14):
Did Varig, Rio Sul and Nordeste count as one airline or three? If it counted as three, then GOL and Varig could keep their separate identities and still be legal under the law. Anyone knows if that would be possible?

If I´m not mistaken, there´s no more of these companies, just some planes in the colours etc.
In 03, when the talks of merger began, that was one point, not to have the 3 companies diference.



Dida, Cafu, Lucio, Roque Junior, Roberto Carlo, Emerson, Ze Roberto, Ronaldinho, Kaka, Adriano, Robinho, Ronaldo
User currently offlineN1120A From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 26196 posts, RR: 76
Reply 18, posted (9 years 2 weeks 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 3052 times:

Quoting Hardiwv (Reply 8):
There are many legacy carriers which also have their own LCC (e.g. KLM and Transavia or UA and Ted).

While I agree with Transavia, Ted is definately not an LCC. Still, I think you are right that GOL's management can help RG's horrible state. I think the key there is GOL maintaining the low cost domestic ops while actually upgrading RG's product on international. Also, they would be wise to maintain the RG identity.

Quoting Incitatus (Reply 15):
I heard a story about the RG pilots that are qualified to fly the 737NGs. Varig tries to keep a single pool of 737 pilots, but not all of them are NG rated.

If you have the cockpit on the NG programmed correctly, any 737 pilot can fly any 737, 300-900 and the 100 or 200 with slight differences training.



Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
User currently offlinePANAM_DC10 From Australia, joined Aug 2000, 4096 posts, RR: 90
Reply 19, posted (9 years 2 weeks 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 2957 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
COMMUNITY MANAGER

Also, QF have Jetstar as an LCC which seems to be working well so far.

Back OT and excuse me if my questions appear naive to those more knowledgeable than I.

If GOL could retain it's low domestic cost's and aquire RG what will be the real impact on International operations? GOL has the Capital and their model is working well. If applied to RGs International operations, How much in cost benefits could they obtain, if any, and would they likely keep the current Long Haul fleet or add more of what they operate, or perhaps a new model to help uprgade the International product?

Understand GOL is one of 4 bidders so early days but thoughts appreciated.

Regards



Ask the impossible to achieve the best possible
User currently offlineIncitatus From Brazil, joined Feb 2005, 3964 posts, RR: 13
Reply 20, posted (9 years 2 weeks 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 2837 times:

Quoting N1120A (Reply 18):
If you have the cockpit on the NG programmed correctly, any 737 pilot can fly any 737, 300-900 and the 100 or 200 with slight differences training.

At Varig not all pilots are qualified to fly the NGs.


User currently offlinePPVRA From Brazil, joined Nov 2004, 8875 posts, RR: 40
Reply 21, posted (9 years 2 weeks 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 2813 times:

PANAM_DC10,

Quoting PANAM_DC10 (Reply 19):
If GOL could retain it's low domestic costs and aquire RG what will be the real impact on International operations? GOL has the Capital and their model is working well. If applied to RGs International operations, How much in cost benefits could they obtain, if any, and would they likely keep the current Long Haul fleet or add more of what they operate, or perhaps a new model to help uprgade the International product?

depends whether your talking about them keeping RG as a service airline or turn them into an LCC. If you mean as an LCC, then I have no idea. But if they keep at least the international as service, operations wise, I don't think there should be much impact at all.

One interesting (puzzling?) aspect about Varig is that they are never the cheapest airline to fly international (at least most of the time), they seem to always be able to have good loads even though their product has deteriorated a lot in the past few years. I'm sure there would be some capacity trimming and all.

As for the fleet, I would think the MD-11s would go out the window (maybe over to VarigLog) in a short time due to their not so optimal fuel efficiency. B777s would probably stay and replace the MDs, at least I would hope so  Smile . Or they could order 787s/A350s to replace the 'heavy' 772s and/or 763s. Not sure on the fate of the 752s though, would be interesting to see what becomes of them.

Anyways, just my thoughts...

Cheers,
PPVRA



"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
User currently offlineJJMNGR From Brazil, joined May 2004, 1018 posts, RR: 15
Reply 22, posted (9 years 2 weeks 22 hours ago) and read 2748 times:

I would love to see GOL putting their money on a lost cause...

User currently offlineJJMNGR From Brazil, joined May 2004, 1018 posts, RR: 15
Reply 23, posted (9 years 2 weeks 22 hours ago) and read 2747 times:

By the way GOL formally denied their intention....maybe it was a gossip posted by RG to see if someone cares about them...hahaha

User currently offlineIncitatus From Brazil, joined Feb 2005, 3964 posts, RR: 13
Reply 24, posted (9 years 2 weeks 22 hours ago) and read 2729 times:

Quoting JJMNGR (Reply 22):
I would love to see GOL putting their money on a lost cause...

It could go the other way too with Gol + Varig and the new BRA squeezing TAM out of the market.

BTW, BRA is a hilarious name for an airline... Can I have seat number 34 C please....? Yes, right next to the 34 B lady...!  silly 


25 PANAM_DC10 : Thanks for the answer PPVRA. You got my point and that was that they don't go LCC on Intl but take over a "legacy" for Intl market share etc. I usual
26 PPVRA : No problem PANAM_DC10! The deal with the "denial" is that they would only acquire RG if RG goes LCC, GOL is still on the negotiating table however lik
27 GaleaoCumbica : Hi all! After a long time, I am back. Just a few words. I do want to see VARIG flying around as they are not as bad as many people say. I flew TAM a f
28 Post contains images PPVRA : Plus you get that round-the-island flight tour Cheers, PPVRA
29 Incitatus : Is food the main item to determine if service was good or not? I think #1 is to be on-time - or ahead a few minutes if possible. Include in it time t
30 Post contains images PPVRA : A well fed pax is a happy pax. The rest might shave off some of the experience, but the net total can still be positive Cheers, PPVRA
31 Post contains images Backfire : Speed means nothing without accuracy.
32 JJMNGR : It is incredible how some concepts about what is good or not is delicated. Singapore airlines which is worldwide known as one of the best services for
33 Hardiwv : You are completely right. However, overall TAM and RG could be more creative with their onboard service. KL recently adjusted their onboard service a
34 Erikwilliam : Galeao: we´re never arguiing about the service, we´re just saying that Varig is a broken company, wich apparently doesn´t seem to bother them too m
35 JJMNGR : Hardi, Last time I flew LH FRA/LHR F/A passed through the aisle hanging a basket with sandwiches (a french stile "baguete")...it was simple but nice..
36 Erikwilliam : I do know that my man, belive me, I have a female clothes store in SP, it´s just outrageous how much we have to pay in taxes, the same with every si
37 N1120A : If they are not qualified to fly the NG, they are not qualified to fly any 737
38 MATURRO727 : Hey. PPVRA: hey men, I don't understand why does people say what you just said, (This brings a total of four potential investors, German Efromovich (O
39 FMAL : What's this about Varig getting 2 747-400s? I heard this rumor before, but nothing ever happened. As for the Gol proposal, they don't seam to be an ac
40 Hardiwv : The information I have is that, in strictly legal terms, it was Ocean Air which actually bough AV. It happens that Efromovich owns Ocean Air, so he a
41 Incitatus : That is not correct. A common type rating does not mean any pilot can fly any version. For example, one can't take a pilot that was trained to fly th
42 JJMNGR : Nobody is paying too much attention to the point that RG shouldn´t have credits to lease aircrafts...for how much the contracts are being made? 2 or
43 JJMNGR : Erik, You are right...TAM paid that much of taxes... Now imagine that TAM has to compete in the market, with routes, equipments, staff, trainning, pri
44 PPVRA : I don't know, but my guess is that ILC has a lot of interest in having a costumer in a country the size of Brazil in the future... U.S. airlines have
45 Glennpower : With regards RGs proposed lease of 2 x 747-400s (to be used on GRU-FRA route),what do you think!,because of there poor credit rating at the moment,the
46 Brasuca : There are many other less risky markets to JJ than FRA's one. Star Alliance constrains Brazil-German market, which will threaten any JJ's further ent
47 2travel2know : GOL shouldn't try to buy RG, GOL's quite fine now and if they want international traffic they easily could get it to Mercosur countries and other dest
48 JJMNGR : FRA is out of TAM´s plans....in the past it was a bad strategy and it will be the same to return to this route in a moment like this. Believe me guys
49 Hardiwv : Completely agree, with destinations such as ZRH and AMS underserved, JJ should give a chance to other places. FRA is completely dominated by RG-LH an
50 Whlinder : Is there a press release/news article for this or any other news article regarding Gol's proposal other than the one in the original post?
51 HAWK21M : Whats the Aviation Scene with B737s in Brazil. The reason Im asking cause a few Brazilian Pilots might join BD in a few months,due Crew Shortage. regd
52 Erikwilliam : There was last week, but nothing too formal or anything. This "gossip" just turned out, and probably was classifeid info, that´s probably why they d
53 Post contains links JJMNGR : Whlinder Yes, there is an article on a Brazilian newspaper. It is in portuguese.... http://www1.folha.uol.com.br/folha/dinheiro/ult91u95051.shtml
54 Whlinder : Thank you for the link.
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