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The Weight Of B6's IFE In Relation To Fuel Costs?  
User currently offlineByrdluvs747 From United States of America, joined Jul 2004, 2358 posts, RR: 1
Posted (9 years 4 months 4 weeks 14 hours ago) and read 4696 times:

Does anyone have an idea of the weight of B6's IFE(total or individual screens)? I'm wondering how much extra does it cost B6 to fly their aircraft versus say HP on their LA - JFK transcons.


The 747: The hands who designed it were guided by god.
28 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineStealthZ From Australia, joined Feb 2005, 5692 posts, RR: 44
Reply 1, posted (9 years 4 months 4 weeks 13 hours ago) and read 4688 times:
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Love to know what all this IFE stuff does add to the weight!!
Along with the reduction in (in many cases) reduction in knee room and foot room in many seats. I could take it or... preferably leave it, give me a good book or two anyday!

Regards

Chris



If your camera sends text messages, that could explain why your photos are rubbish!
User currently offlineUN_B732 From United States of America, joined Jul 2001, 4289 posts, RR: 4
Reply 2, posted (9 years 4 months 4 weeks 13 hours ago) and read 4681 times:

Fly Lufthansa or Aeroflot, or an airline without PTV boxes. StealthZ
-Mr. X



What now?
User currently offlineLaxintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 25173 posts, RR: 48
Reply 3, posted (9 years 4 months 4 weeks 13 hours ago) and read 4676 times:

An IFE system with video screens at every seat weighs collectively about 2,000 pounds on the B767-300.
On the B777-200, it weights about 2,600lbs.
On the B747-400, such a system weighs a bit over 3,000lbs.

A rough number used in the industry is about 7-8lbs per passenger seat. This average covers cableling and other associated electronics beyond simply the in seat units.



From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
User currently offlineStealthZ From Australia, joined Feb 2005, 5692 posts, RR: 44
Reply 4, posted (9 years 4 months 4 weeks 13 hours ago) and read 4667 times:
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Quoting UN_B732 (Reply 2):
Fly Lufthansa or Aeroflot, or an airline without PTV boxes. StealthZ

Not likely, no disrespect to either airline, but I would have to travel much of the way around the world to get to a place served by either!!



If your camera sends text messages, that could explain why your photos are rubbish!
User currently offlineByrdluvs747 From United States of America, joined Jul 2004, 2358 posts, RR: 1
Reply 5, posted (9 years 4 months 4 weeks 12 hours ago) and read 4663 times:

Thanks Laxintl.

Ok so at 156 seats per plane that equals 1092-1248 extra pounds per flight. That's quite a bit of weight to be carrying around on every flight.



The 747: The hands who designed it were guided by god.
User currently offlineLemurs From United States of America, joined Mar 2005, 1439 posts, RR: 4
Reply 6, posted (9 years 4 months 4 weeks 6 hours ago) and read 4600 times:

Quoting Byrdluvs747 (Reply 5):
Ok so at 156 seats per plane that equals 1092-1248 extra pounds per flight. That's quite a bit of weight to be carrying around on every flight.

One of the reasons airlines and espcially leasors are very excited about Boeing's plans go make wireless the standard option for IFE on the 787. Reduced weight, and much simpler/cheaper to reconfigure an interior.



There are 10 kinds of people in the world; those who understand binary, and those that don't.
User currently offlineAA737-823 From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 5771 posts, RR: 11
Reply 7, posted (9 years 4 months 4 weeks 2 hours ago) and read 4525 times:

GOOD GRIEF!!!!
I had no idea.
2000 lb for a 767??? That's nuts!
No wonder Southwest has repeatedly chosen to skip it.
R


User currently offlineSebring From Canada, joined Jul 2004, 1663 posts, RR: 14
Reply 8, posted (9 years 4 months 4 weeks 1 hour ago) and read 4514 times:

Doesn't live TV on B6 and WS carry an additional weight penalty? I am under the assumption that the satellite receiver adds weight over and above the cabling and in-seat video equipment.

User currently offlineByrdluvs747 From United States of America, joined Jul 2004, 2358 posts, RR: 1
Reply 9, posted (9 years 4 months 4 weeks 1 hour ago) and read 4498 times:

Reduced weight, and much simpler/cheaper to reconfigure an interior.

Yes, I'd rather have high speed internet access anyway.

Quoting Sebring (Reply 8):
Doesn't live TV on B6 and WS carry an additional weight penalty? I am under the assumption that the satellite receiver adds weight over and above the cabling and in-seat video equipment.

Yes, but I can't imagine it adding more than 100-150lbs. Most receivers these days are made of plastics.



The 747: The hands who designed it were guided by god.
User currently offlineAogdesk From United States of America, joined Jun 2004, 935 posts, RR: 3
Reply 10, posted (9 years 4 months 4 weeks 1 hour ago) and read 4476 times:

Don't take this as gospel, but I believe that I've read in the past that an object burns 4% of its overall weight in fuel.....I imagine that becomes a very real factor considering todays fuel prices.

User currently offlineFLAIRPORT From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 11, posted (9 years 4 months 3 weeks 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 4425 times:

Wouldn't that be equivelent to the standard weight of an A320 if it was flown by a major without IFE but with extra seats and without 36 inch pitch?

User currently offlineByrdluvs747 From United States of America, joined Jul 2004, 2358 posts, RR: 1
Reply 12, posted (9 years 4 months 3 weeks 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 4396 times:

Quoting FLAIRPORT (Reply 11):
Wouldn't that be equivelent to the standard weight of an A320 if it was flown by a major without IFE but with extra seats and without 36 inch pitch?

Only if a carrier was flying an all Y A320 with 31" pitch. But most often the difference is the F cabin.

Even if they had the same IFE setup, HP(12F & 138 Y) would achieve a lower weight due to the 2x2 F seating. A row of four 200lb men in F weigh less than six 200lb men in Y. If you average every adult at 150lbs, that comes to 900lbs less than a B6 A320 without the live IFE.

US flies their A320's with 142 seats(16 F & 126Y). That's 14 less seats than on B6. If you average every adult at 160lbs, it comes to at least a 2200lb difference.

Look at TED's config which is only a reverse of B6's seating(E+ in the front versus in the back). While Ted has the same number seats, it would still weigh 1200lbs less since there's no IFE



The 747: The hands who designed it were guided by god.
User currently offlineAa757first From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 3347 posts, RR: 8
Reply 13, posted (9 years 4 months 3 weeks 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 4363 times:

Quoting FLAIRPORT (Reply 11):


Wouldn't that be equivelent to the standard weight of an A320 if it was flown by a major without IFE but with extra seats and without 36 inch pitch?

But the seats are filled with fare-paying passengers. LCD screens do not carry passengers.

AAndrew


User currently offlineN1120A From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 26444 posts, RR: 75
Reply 14, posted (9 years 4 months 3 weeks 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 4335 times:

Quoting FLAIRPORT (Reply 11):
Wouldn't that be equivelent to the standard weight of an A320 if it was flown by a major without IFE but with extra seats and without 36 inch pitch?

B6 does not have a 36 inch pitch. They have 32" in the front third and 34" in the rear third.

Quoting Byrdluvs747 (Reply 12):
US flies their A320's with 142 seats(16 F & 126Y). That's 14 less seats than on B6. If you average every adult at 160lbs, it comes to at least a 2200lb difference.

Remember, there is a not insignificant difference in the weight of the seat sets that does counter some of that. Weight is the main reason SQ does not have F on the A345 services.



Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
User currently offlineHavaloc From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 79 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (9 years 4 months 3 weeks 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 4308 times:

What about those CRT style televisions hanging from the ceiling in NW's 757 that are never used? That must be a lot of weight too.


DC-9
User currently offlineLemurs From United States of America, joined Mar 2005, 1439 posts, RR: 4
Reply 16, posted (9 years 4 months 3 weeks 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 4294 times:

Quoting N1120A (Reply 14):
B6 does not have a 36 inch pitch. They have 32" in the front third and 34" in the rear third.

So, uh...any idea what the middle third is? Seems kinda strange to leave that bit of info out. I'm kinda curious now.  Smile



There are 10 kinds of people in the world; those who understand binary, and those that don't.
User currently offlineJBLUA320 From United States of America, joined May 2002, 3179 posts, RR: 19
Reply 17, posted (9 years 4 months 3 weeks 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 4274 times:
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Any row up to the emergency exit row is 32" of pitch. Including and behind the exit rows, the pitch is 34".

For the record, jetBlue airplanes do not have a metal box under any seat. Absolutely no underseat or knee space is obstructed by the IFE on board any jetBlue airplane.

JBLU


User currently offlineByrdluvs747 From United States of America, joined Jul 2004, 2358 posts, RR: 1
Reply 18, posted (9 years 4 months 3 weeks 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 4247 times:

Quoting Havaloc (Reply 15):
What about those CRT style televisions hanging from the ceiling in NW's 757 that are never used? That must be a lot of weight too.

Good point. I Always wondered how much those weigh. They should convert them to LCD.

Quote:
For the record, jetBlue airplanes do not have a metal box under any seat. Absolutely no underseat or knee space is obstructed by the IFE on board any jetBlue airplane.

But they do have a box somewhere, right? If so, then the weight issue still applies.



The 747: The hands who designed it were guided by god.
User currently offlineN200WN From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 784 posts, RR: 6
Reply 19, posted (9 years 4 months 3 weeks 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 4207 times:

Quoting AA737-823 (Reply 7):
GOOD GRIEF!!!!
I had no idea.
2000 lb for a 767??? That's nuts!
No wonder Southwest has repeatedly chosen to skip it

I have to agree...and I hope it's not something that Southwest does in the future either. With a 420 aircraft fleet at 137 seats per airplane that would mean 57,540 units. That is A LOT of electronic equipment to purchase and maintain. And think of it like this...with the fast pace of changing technology it's not like once these things are installed they're good for the life of the airplane. How many times will they need to be upgraded and replaced over the life of the aircraft? Then there is the expense of maintenance in addition to the added weight being carried around.

Wouldn't it be better to just add power ports to every seat and let the Customers purchase, use, upgrade, and maintain the equipment of their choice?


User currently offlinePadcrasher From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 20, posted (9 years 4 months 3 weeks 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 4191 times:

Quoting N200WN (Reply 19):
Wouldn't it be better to just add power ports to every seat and let the Customers purchase, use, upgrade, and maintain the equipment of their choice?

IMO that wouldn't play much into someone's buying decision.

Here's the test Southwest should be worried about.

Put WN and JB up against one another in a market neither one has a natural advantage in. JB will out yield Southwest, outperform Southwest in load factor, and holding for fuel hedging Jetblue has lower costs than Southwest.
They have a better product and a business model that produces lower costs.
Southwest better think twice about going with the status quo. The only reason Southwest is not craping their pants is they hit the jackpot in fuel hedging.


User currently offlineN200WN From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 784 posts, RR: 6
Reply 21, posted (9 years 4 months 3 weeks 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 4164 times:

Quoting Padcrasher (Reply 20):
IMO that wouldn't play much into someone's buying decision.

Here's the test Southwest should be worried about.

Put WN and JB up against one another in a market neither one has a natural advantage in. JB will out yield Southwest, outperform Southwest in load factor, and holding for fuel hedging Jetblue has lower costs than Southwest.
They have a better product and a business model that produces lower costs.
Southwest better think twice about going with the status quo. The only reason Southwest is not craping their pants is they hit the jackpot in fuel hedging.

Agreed...B6 does in fact offer a superior "product" (if assigned seats and IFE are important to you) and they are a more than outstanding operation. Herb has in fact made comments to this effect and believe me they are watching very closely. That is why there have been comments made over the last year about looking at things like RJ's, assigned seating, and IFE. But I think at this point in time B6's gains will come at the expense of the legacy carriers as there is little head to head competition between the B6 and WN. That will all come in due course.

Now in five to ten years (or how ever long it may take) when JetBlue, Southwest, and AirTran have a combined 50 to 60 percent of the US market I think we may be looking at a very different WN...but competition is great and will only bring about better customer service on more efficient airlines.

You hit the nail on the head with regards to fuel hedging. This has been communicated to all employees time and time again to keep everyone focused on costs. As someone who works here, trust me when I say that WN is insanely committed to being the lowest cost provider of air travel in the US.

That is why I don't think that adding IFE is a wise of necessary thing to do at this time, if ever, because as you say I don't believe it plays into most people's buying decisions.


User currently offlineLV From United States of America, joined Jun 2001, 2005 posts, RR: 0
Reply 22, posted (9 years 4 months 3 weeks 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 4154 times:

IFE is a marketing point, and on at least one occasion it got them free publicity. Last night, coincidentally, Conan O'Brien was talking about a Jetblue flight were people started giving him strange looks, then next thing he realizes is that his show is on and the people are reacting to his jokes. He said it was the weirdest thing, to get that instant reaction and watch his show as he was flying.

User currently offlineSilentObserver From United States of America, joined Mar 2005, 42 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (9 years 4 months 3 weeks 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 4153 times:

Jetblue is making money, when everyone but Southwest is losing money. They hit a load factor of 90% for March, an increase of 6.6%. They have one of the lowest per seat costs of any airline in the market (with flying the IFEs on every flight). They are now rated as having the best product in the market.

If you can make a profit and continue to build on your brand, all while increasing you load factor, you are obviously doing a lot right!!!

So what does it matter if the IFE does add 2000lbs?? Things seem to be working extremely well for them. One could say that a lot of the "cult" following it because of those IFEs. It does seem to be hurting them too badly to have the extra weight.


User currently offlineDfwRevolution From United States of America, joined Jan 2010, 970 posts, RR: 51
Reply 24, posted (9 years 4 months 3 weeks 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 4134 times:

Quoting Padcrasher (Reply 20):
Here's the test Southwest should be worried about.

WN is the furthest thing from a sitting target possible. There is nothing to "worry" about. It's absolutely no secret how to match the "JetBlue Product." They just need to sit, wait, and mobilize when the time is right. I don't put that out of the capacity of the most capable leadership in the industry.

Quoting N200WN (Reply 19):
With a 420 aircraft fleet at 137 seats per airplane that would mean 57,540 units. That is A LOT of electronic equipment to purchase and maintain.

No kidding... and food for thought, that much IFE equippment is the equivelent weight of 4 unloaded, unfueled 737-700!


25 Padcrasher : Spoken like a Major airline back in the 80's. "Southwest is nothing to worry about. They are not even considered a major carrier by the DOT". This no
26 Jacobin777 : all this is well and good..but B6 doesn't doesn't have the full cost structure that WN has......lets see what happens in a few years when B6 is saddle
27 Post contains images N844AA : I've been wondering a lot time how maturity will affect B6's profitability. Obviously rising maintenance costs/pay-scales/pensions/etc. are managable
28 Post contains images Lightsaber : I agree. When is the last time you saw a B6 thread without discussion of the IFE? While I enjoy reading, the "pacification" value IFE has on other pa
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