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TAP Increases Flights To JNB  
User currently offlineHardiwv From Brazil, joined Oct 2004, 8780 posts, RR: 49
Posted (9 years 8 months 4 weeks 8 hours ago) and read 4626 times:

As of June/05 TAP Portugal will expand its flights LIS-JNB from 2 x week to 3 x week with the A340.

This week TAP Portugal celebrates 40 years of its operations to JNB. TAP's first flight to JNB operated on the route LIS-LAD-JNB and started in April 1965.

Currently TAP also operates in Africa to LAD, SID, OXB, DKR, TMS, and MPM.

TAP is negotiating a partnership agreement with Star Alliance-candidate airline SA for codeshare on the route LIS-JNB and we could see LIS-JNB increasing further next year if SA-TP partnership is concluded (TAP joined Star Alliance last month). LIS could serve as a gateway from South Africa to European destinations and maybe we could even see SA operating its own metal to LIS.

Rgs,

38 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineTAP1972 From Portugal, joined Dec 2003, 396 posts, RR: 3
Reply 1, posted (9 years 8 months 4 weeks 5 hours ago) and read 4560 times:

Also, some years ago we had the pleasure to see the SAA 747's at Lis airport.

Hope we see them again or a A340-600........just dreaming.

Any news on TAP's fleet renewal?


User currently offlineHardiwv From Brazil, joined Oct 2004, 8780 posts, RR: 49
Reply 2, posted (9 years 8 months 3 weeks 6 days 4 hours ago) and read 4393 times:

Quoting TAP1972 (Reply 1):
Any news on TAP's fleet renewal?

Nothing official yet, but something would have to come up very soon.

TP is also increasing flights to NAT (Natal, Brazil) as of June/05 from 3 x week to 5 x week and NAT is expected to go daily as of November-December/05.

Rgs,


User currently offlineCV990 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 3, posted (9 years 8 months 3 weeks 6 days 4 hours ago) and read 4380 times:

Hi!

If SAA returns to LIS that would bee indeed good news. I always feel that SAA dropping LIS was one of the poorest decisions they did, SAA had good market here and they ahd an excelent service. I still recall seeing SAA from the 707 times. They used to fly on the apartheid times via Cape Verde Islands. I saw the final moments of the 707 and then we started to see the 747 and latter the 747SP. They also had traffic rights to some of their european destiantions! That's why I flew with them from ATH to LIS..... well my flight was supposed to be round trip LIS/ATH/LIS but I lost the flight LIS/ATH with them ( SAA booked me via Rome with TAP 737-200 from LIS to Rome and then Alitalia 727-200 to ATH.... ) and I lost my best oportunity to fly in a 747SP. On the way back I did manage to fly with SAA from ATH and all I can tell you is that I had an excelent flight, the service was great and the only thing was the fact that only white people were on board!!! Yes, that was on the 11th. August 1982 and the plane was a B. 747-244B ZS-SAO.
Regards


User currently offlineIowa744Fan From United States of America, joined Apr 2004, 931 posts, RR: 1
Reply 4, posted (9 years 8 months 3 weeks 6 days 4 hours ago) and read 4374 times:

Quoting TAP1972 (Reply 1):
Also, some years ago we had the pleasure to see the SAA 747's at Lis airport.

Hope we see them again or a A340-600........just dreaming.

Any news on TAP's fleet renewal?

It would be nice to see SAA expand to LIS...but yeah, likely just dreaming!  Smile

As for the fleet renewal, just an article in AW&ST that talked about them likely going with the 330 family. I think that will be likely and it would definitely make sense. To my knowledge, they aren't looking at placing too large of an order, and the 330 would give some commonality with the 340. It is a little bigger than the 310s that they would replace, but I don't think TAP wants to wait long enough to get 787s. Plus, for a fleet of only 4-5 aircraft (what I have read), I would say that the 330 would fit nicely with the 340. Or the 350 if they are willing to wait.


User currently offlineHardiwv From Brazil, joined Oct 2004, 8780 posts, RR: 49
Reply 5, posted (9 years 8 months 3 weeks 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 4363 times:

Quoting Iowa744Fan (Reply 4):
It would be nice to see SAA expand to LIS...but yeah, likely just dreaming!

Maybe SA could change its stop over on the route to the US from SID to LIS, provided it is granted traffic rights from LIS to the US, something I highly doubt. Otherwise, I also find it difficult for SA to come back to LIS. It is a good window for TAP to explore this market, the same way it does with Northeast Brazil.

Quoting Iowa744Fan (Reply 4):
As for the fleet renewal, just an article in AW&ST that talked about them likely going with the 330 family. I think that will be likely and it would definitely make sense.



Quoting Iowa744Fan (Reply 4):
Plus, for a fleet of only 4-5 aircraft (what I have read), I would say that the 330 would fit nicely with the 340

I would also say that TAP would get about 8-10 A330s, it makes all the sense, as you pointed out. I also think TP needs to get an additional A340 for year-round service to SSA (currently A340s are used for GRU, GIG, JNB, MPM and on rotation A340/A310 to EWR and SSA).

TPs current fleet:

Airbus A310 x 6
Airbus A319 x 16
Airbus A320 x 11
Airbus A321 x 3
Airbus A340 x 4

Rgs,


User currently offlineMAH4546 From Sweden, joined Jan 2001, 33289 posts, RR: 71
Reply 6, posted (9 years 8 months 3 weeks 5 days 21 hours ago) and read 4241 times:

Quoting Hardiwv (Reply 5):
Maybe SA could change its stop over on the route to the US from SID to LIS, provided it is granted traffic rights from LIS to the US, something I highly doubt.

They would never do that. SID is at least somewhat geographiclly convinent on the way to Atlanta. LIS is not. New York City flights stop in Dakar, and the Dulles flights will stop in Accra.



a.
User currently offlineCV990 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 7, posted (9 years 8 months 3 weeks 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 4135 times:

Hi!

In my point of view TAP should drop also the old version of the A340, remember that these are the first generation A340's! We already know that the days of the A310 in TAP are over, so why not to make a full package and instead of ordering now the A330 to repalce the A310 and latter order again the A330 to replace the A340?
The routes that TAP can fit nicely in the A330 model! My only question would be if TAP should order only the A330-200 to replace both models or use the A330-200 to replace the A310 and the A330-300 to replace the A340!
regards


User currently offlineBoeingBus From United States of America, joined May 2004, 1597 posts, RR: 17
Reply 8, posted (9 years 8 months 3 weeks 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 4065 times:

Quoting CV990 (Reply 7):
TAP should drop also the old version of the A340

I most definetly agree with this statement and the time is ready to get rid of this old inneficient bird!

Quoting CV990 (Reply 7):
A330-200 to replace both models or use the A330-200 to replace the A310 and the A330-300 to replace the A340

This is most likely to happen.

But I personally believe the bigger question is when this will happen?

I personally don't think they will do it too soon. They have recently refurbished or added new seats on their A310/40. So I am willing to bet that any new planes won't happend till at least 2008 if not 2010. So this is perfect timing for a 787 and 350 match up. (By then, you are going to see another livery change because I think they have messed up and this current livery will not last the test of time.)

It would be in TP's best interest to go for this new generation airplanes to replace the long haul fleet. Anything short of this is shortsighted - especially so due to the cost of fuel that will never be at levels when the A330 was designed.

This could very well be Boeing's mystery European customer??? could it be TP - ahhh - it's all wishful thinking on my part.



Airbus or Boeing - it's all good to me!
User currently offlineCV990 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 9, posted (9 years 8 months 3 weeks 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 4028 times:

Hi BoeingBus!

Good points you did. Has you know TAP was from 1965 till 2000 a very good Boeing client. In the 60's and 70's TAP really had a lot of respect from Boeing, dont forget that TAP was the 2nd. airline in Europe to order the B. 727-100, after that many airlines started to use that airliner in Europe and in the rest of the world. Also TAP was one of the first to order the 747, so even if we don't want to talk about the past Boeing IS STILL in a special place in the heart of TAP!!!! But another thing is important to evaluate, is the fact that TAP belongs to the EU and that also rules a lot. Besides that TAP have his fleet much shaped to the Airbus. If Portugal was stronger in EU ( like France, Germany, England, or even Nederlands ) maybe we could opt for Boeing but we are really small so.....
Anyway I think if TAP takes at least a few more years they should indeed go ahead for the A350! We'll see!
Again thanks for your comments, really great ones!
Regards


User currently offlineHardiwv From Brazil, joined Oct 2004, 8780 posts, RR: 49
Reply 10, posted (9 years 8 months 3 weeks 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 4021 times:

...and dont forget that at that time TAP was also extremely inefficient, with huge debts, flying a lot of unprofitable routes...

Rgs,


User currently offlineAirbazar From United States of America, joined Sep 2003, 8670 posts, RR: 10
Reply 11, posted (9 years 8 months 3 weeks 5 days 2 hours ago) and read 3981 times:

... and there was no Airbus. I mean, when the 727 and 747 were launched what else was there from Airbus?
Let's not forget that TAP's wide bodies are used in both short and long haul routes. They fly them to Cape Verde, Guine' Bissau, LHR and FRA. They need a "blended" wide body like the A330 or A350. If they were to chose the 787 they would need a combination of -3's and -8's, thus giving them less flexibility.


User currently offlineIowa744fan From United States of America, joined Apr 2004, 931 posts, RR: 1
Reply 12, posted (9 years 8 months 3 weeks 5 days 1 hour ago) and read 3970 times:

Quoting CV990 (Reply 7):
In my point of view TAP should drop also the old version of the A340, remember that these are the first generation A340's! We already know that the days of the A310 in TAP are over, so why not to make a full package and instead of ordering now the A330 to repalce the A310 and latter order again the A330 to replace the A340?
The routes that TAP can fit nicely in the A330 model! My only question would be if TAP should order only the A330-200 to replace both models or use the A330-200 to replace the A310 and the A330-300 to replace the A340!



Quoting BoeingBus (Reply 8):
I personally don't think they will do it too soon. They have recently refurbished or added new seats on their A310/40. So I am willing to bet that any new planes won't happend till at least 2008 if not 2010. So this is perfect timing for a 787 and 350 match up.

Both of these are good points. Does anyone know how soon they want to expand? Perhaps they could work out a short-term leasing agreement with A or B to cover a few years and then as pointed out, just replace the entire widebody fleet (310s,340s, and whatever they lease) with the 350 or 787. I think that is a good idea....however....I am not an airline CEO!  Smile


User currently offlineBoeingBus From United States of America, joined May 2004, 1597 posts, RR: 17
Reply 13, posted (9 years 8 months 3 weeks 5 days 1 hour ago) and read 3944 times:

Quoting Airbazar (Reply 11):
787 they would need a combination of -3's and -8's, thus giving them less flexibility

This point of 'less flexibility' is mute point when the routes that they would use a widebody such as LHR and FRA, are only temporary high season months. This will have no factor in TP decision as they would most likely opt for 787-8 and not even look at the 3. Less weight is less fuel burn. period. Your right, wing design does play a small part but I don't think it's significant for TP. The amount of time they are actually in the air for that once daily widebody short haul flight for 2 months. Now, for Japanese airlines or LH the 787-3 is required as they have many frequencies daily on widebodies, where that 1% fuel burn savings is significant.

The 787 is going to be efficient no matter which version is chosen. Flexibility of the 787, is going to be the range capability of the aircraft. TP can use the 787 to fly to China again, which was the main reason they purchased the A340.

Politics reigns supreme... one of the reasons for TP's Airbus purhcase was due to entry of Portugal in the EU whereas in the past before 84 they were Lockheed/Boeing customer. If Portugal wanted to remain loyal to the EU they had to support their own industries, which I dont blame them.

Portugal received many millions of euros from the EU. If a state airline chose Boeing it woudln't sit well with Brussels. Sounds a lot like what LOT is going through. But Portugal is not so dependant on the EU as it will receive less EU aid in the future and plus TP will be privatised eventually. So Boeing has a clear shot right now.



Airbus or Boeing - it's all good to me!
User currently offlineAirbazar From United States of America, joined Sep 2003, 8670 posts, RR: 10
Reply 14, posted (9 years 8 months 3 weeks 5 days ago) and read 3922 times:

Quoting BoeingBus (Reply 13):
The 787 is going to be efficient no matter which version is chosen. Flexibility of the 787, is going to be the range capability of the aircraft. TP can use the 787 to fly to China again, which was the main reason they purchased the A340.

TAP will never fly to China. There's no market there for TAP anytime soon. The only way they could gain a market in China would be to start offering through flights between Brazil and China but it will never happen because the airport in LIS, even the proposed new one, won't support hub operations of that magnitude. The 787-8/9's range is overkill for TAP's route network.

They used to operate their A310's into LHR on a very regular basis, between the early morning arrivals and evening departure, until their expansion into Brazil where the aircraft are more useful. But there's also SID, that's a regular route with the A310.

Quoting BoeingBus (Reply 13):
Politics reigns supreme... one of the reasons for TP's Airbus purhcase was due to entry of Portugal in the EU

That's no secret. Everyone knows that. I'm sure the price wasn't bad either.


User currently offlineBoeingBus From United States of America, joined May 2004, 1597 posts, RR: 17
Reply 15, posted (9 years 8 months 3 weeks 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 3906 times:

Quoting Airbazar (Reply 14):
TAP will never fly to China. There's no market there for TAP anytime soon.

Don't be so sure. Have you been to Portugal recently? The Chinese are moving there in droves. It's amazing at best... China will be the new superpower and any country that doesn't have link to her will lose out. Lose out in tourism as well as the business travelers. I think it will happen and the 787 or 350 can make it easier...



Airbus or Boeing - it's all good to me!
User currently offlinePPVRA From Brazil, joined Nov 2004, 8978 posts, RR: 39
Reply 16, posted (9 years 8 months 3 weeks 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 3888 times:

Quoting Airbazar (Reply 14):
The 787-8/9's range is overkill for TAP's route network.

I think the issue TAP has to think about is not range, but capacity. The 787 offers them more flexibility then the A350 (more destinations due to it's smaller size etc.), but the latter one would be better for flights to GRU/GIG maybe even EWR/JNB (higher capacity).

TAP seems to be going with the point-point Boeing/787 theory, so I would say go with the 787.

Don't know about the -3 though, barely reaches the NE of Brazil and CCS is out of the question..

Cheers,
PPVRA



"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
User currently offlineHardiwv From Brazil, joined Oct 2004, 8780 posts, RR: 49
Reply 17, posted (9 years 8 months 3 weeks 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 3808 times:

Quoting BoeingBus (Reply 13):
TP can use the 787 to fly to China again, which was the main reason they purchased the A340.

TP will not serve China. There are other airlines which are on this route/market and TP does not have the capacitand comparative advantage to compete. It would certainly be a money-drainer.

As AirBazar stated, one possible way to establish a LIS-PEK route be to connect it with GRU (GRU-LIS-PEK). However, RG already stated that its flight to PEK will be routed through LH's second hub (MUC).

Asia is not TP's focus/niche market, the same reason why IB will not go there as well.

Rgs,

[Edited 2005-04-09 12:15:35]

User currently offlineCV990 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 18, posted (9 years 8 months 3 weeks 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 3685 times:

Hi!

I think because TAP joined ALLIANCE those type of flights will be useless for an airline with the dimention of TAP. They will chanalize those passengers to LH or to LX!
I think TAP can give an extremely valuable help in the Brazil and Africa market!
regards


User currently offlineBoeingBus From United States of America, joined May 2004, 1597 posts, RR: 17
Reply 19, posted (9 years 8 months 3 weeks 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 3637 times:

Currently, in today's LIS to China market demand you are 100% correct. But my point in mentioning China was the fact that the 787 has the range, if there is ever a need. I am not saying that they should, but the 787 allows them too in case a need arises. I was just building my case for new generation aircraft, such as the 787 and A350 - thats all.

Going back to China, I personally believe that a country of 1.5 Billion people and ever increasing middle class... I think eventually their will be a need to have more flights to and from China from parts all over the world. The other case is Macau, which you all know has Portuguese links, is becoming the gambling capital of the world - so move over Las Vegas a new and more dynamic player is in town. This inevitably bring more tourists and some Portuguese. I again, I am not saying this will happen today or tomorrow... But in 10-15 years... China will dominate... and TP will either have to give it up to LH or have its own service. So why not have the planes to do the job?


Sorry for being 'out of topic' of this great post. (edit)

[Edited 2005-04-11 15:02:10]


Airbus or Boeing - it's all good to me!
User currently offlineAirbazar From United States of America, joined Sep 2003, 8670 posts, RR: 10
Reply 20, posted (9 years 8 months 3 weeks 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 3621 times:

Quoting BoeingBus (Reply 15):
Don't be so sure. Have you been to Portugal recently? The Chinese are moving there in droves. It's amazing at best... China will be the new superpower and any country that doesn't have link to her will lose out.

Yes, I am from Portugal and was just there last Fall. Those Chinese you see are the ones coming to pick up whatever is left of our manufactoring and taxtile industry  Smile All kidding aside, yes there's a good number of Chinese in Portugal but they are Portuguese citizens from the ex-colonies and Macau.

The USA is today's superpower and TAP doesn't fly to the US, except for a token flight to EWR to shuttle a few homesick immigrants back home on holidays. And the US is far closer to Portugal than China is. It [China routes]will never happen. They'll just route all their passengers via MUC/FRA on LH.

Don't get me wrong. I'd love to see TAP back in Asia. I think they are in a priviledged position to offer connections between the Americas (especiallly S.America), and Asia. I just don't see the Portuguese government having that sort of a vision into the future and TAP taking that step all by themselves.


User currently offline2travel2know From Panama, joined Apr 2005, 3580 posts, RR: 4
Reply 21, posted (9 years 8 months 3 weeks 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 3560 times:

TAP should think of adding more brazilian cites to their network, slowly they're becoming a household name in Brazil... When people in northern Brazil think flying to Europe think TAP Air Portugal... no transfers @ GIG GRU
BEL, CNF, BSB, CWB, POA are waiting for the portuguese airline to link them to Europe.
Their US and African (LAD, MPM, TMS) routes don't match how good the LIS > Brazil > LIS routes are doing.



I don't work for COPA Airlines!
User currently offlineTAP1972 From Portugal, joined Dec 2003, 396 posts, RR: 3
Reply 22, posted (9 years 8 months 3 weeks 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 3497 times:

Quoting 2travel2know (Reply 21):
and African (LAD, MPM, TMS) routes don't match how good the LIS > Brazil > LIS routes are doing

African Routes are doing very well and some years ago before the huge expansion to Brazil, they were the "fat cows". Also TAP does not have more regular flights to LAD because Angola government doesn't give the rights to do so, because believe me, you could have a full A340 on a daily basis to LAD.

Quoting BoeingBus (Reply 19):
in today's LIS to China

Why not Japan?? I'm currently living in Dublin and every weekend I go to Portugal, I go through LHR and about half of the passengers are japanese on excursions. Last friday almost about half of the A321 passengers were Japanese.


User currently offline2travel2know From Panama, joined Apr 2005, 3580 posts, RR: 4
Reply 23, posted (9 years 8 months 3 weeks 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 3465 times:

Quoting TAP1972 (Reply 22):
Also TAP does not have more regular flights to LAD because Angola government doesn't give the rights to do so, because believe me, you could have a full A340 on a daily basis to LAD.

This is news to me.
I do belive about the full daily Air Portugal A340 on the LIS > LAD > LIS route.
But I aslo belive that slowly Angola will start looking west, west to Brazil, so I wouldn't be surprised that someday there'll be a number of LAD > GIG, GRU, SSA flights. Brazil will eventually become as attractive for the Angolans as Portugal, wait and see.
Does the portuguese government still gives TAAG rights to fly LAD > LIS > LAD ?



I don't work for COPA Airlines!
User currently offlineAF022 From France, joined Dec 2003, 2175 posts, RR: 1
Reply 24, posted (9 years 8 months 3 weeks 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 3461 times:

Quoting 2travel2know (Reply 23):
Does the portuguese government still gives TAAG rights to fly LAD > LIS > LAD ?

each airline serves the route 3x/weekly

i would doubt that LADGIG/GRU would turn into a powerhouse. these routes haven't been served by 2x/week over the past 15 years, i'm not sure if the next 15 years would see a huge uptick in activity.


25 2travel2know : If you want my opinion why those LAD > GIG > LAD flights don't do better is mainly because TAAG flies once weekly to GIG and not to GRU, which is the
26 TAP1972 : Doesn't TAAG has a kind of weekly or twice a week flight to GIG?? TAP, like 4 years ago had 2 weekly flights to LAD, I believe (not sure) it was at t
27 Hardiwv : This is complete absurd. TP cannot compete in this market. Correct, especially now that TAP has a full codeshare agreement with RG, under StarAllianc
28 Post contains images TAP1972 : I was joking . I was remembering my latest 5 friday evening flights on TAP from LHR to LIS, where almost half of the passengers were japanese turists
29 2travel2know : Air Portugal's São Tome TMS flights are only to TMS or is TMS a stop on the way to MPM or LAD? No idea if they could combine TMS with Malabo, Equator
30 MAH4546 : Actually, while Sao Paulo is the main business centre in Brazil, Rio de Janeiro is the capital of Brazil's oil industry. That is why TAAG flies to GI
31 Hardiwv : Very good point and you are completely correct. Rgs,
32 2travel2know : Been there, seen that. That makes things more clear about TAAG LAD > GIG with B747 Combi.
33 Velasco : Hi Hardi, long time no see! What will be the full line-up of TAP's frequencies to Brasil by year-end if they go ahead with the changes you mention? An
34 AeroWesty : OK, call me stupid (it's okay, I've been called worse). If TAP has such a big name and market share across the Atlantic from Brazil, why wouldn't onwa
35 2travel2know : It seems that since Brazil and Japan are in opposite sides of the globe, it doesn't matter which way to get there, westbound or eastbound.. I don't k
36 AeroWesty : If you look at the mileage comparisons for how Varig operates their flight to Tokyo now: GRU-LAX-NRT 11,607 mi Versus what they are proposing to avoi
37 2travel2know : I had to do my own calculations, begining with the shortest GRU to NRT distance which is 11485mi. Then: GRU > LAX 6160mi + LAX > NRT 5437mi = 11597mi
38 Post contains images TAP1972 : Very true, I like your thoughts....
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