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AC L1011s  
User currently offlineC-FTOD From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Posted (15 years 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 1628 times:

Twice I have heard that Air Canada may bring back 2 L1011s from storage. I find this to be extremely unlikely but am curious non the less.
What I do know: Of the 12 L1011s (excluding -500s) we had, only 2 are left for possible use. I saw them yesterday at Montreal's Dorval airport. One is in Chile Inter colours and one is all white. The others are scrapped and some have been leased to Air Transat.
Does anybody know anything else? If Air Canada is short of capacity again for this summer, then wouldn't it make more sense to use CP's DC-10s?

44 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
User currently offlineJtb106 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 1, posted (15 years 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 1160 times:

A quick check of the current storage log at Marana shows C-FTND as being in the "scrapping zone".

User currently offlineDeltaAir From United States of America, joined May 1999, 1094 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (15 years 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 1155 times:

This does seem a little odd, but if they were in Montreal then it might be possible. It doesn't surprise me that Air Canada is a little short on planes. Delta bought a lot of -500s from AC.

User currently offlineJtb106 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 3, posted (15 years 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 1151 times:

Also at Marana as of 11/99 was C-FTNB in Air Transat colors. I'm don't know if that is one of theirs or not.

User currently offlineATL Traveller From United States of America, joined Jul 1999, 166 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (15 years 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 1129 times:

Delta flys a bunch of the former AC L1011s. I was in one a few weeks ago. The "No Smoking", "Exit" and Fasten Seat Belt" signs are still in French as well as English. They never changed them.

User currently offlineSlawko From Canada, joined May 1999, 3803 posts, RR: 8
Reply 5, posted (15 years 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 1128 times:

I know that AC is looking at bringing back a few 747-200's and making them all Cargo, for the Air Canada Cargo division. Also from what I know All the AC L1011's are spoken for. The ones that Transat has, are now theirs, they bought them not leased. And the others are scrapped, or sold to other airlines. But the 747-200's are a BIG possibility, and I think that AC will bring them back, because the A340 is a worthless when it comes to transporting cargo (among other things, but that is for a different topic) And the 747-400's both CP's and AC's can only carry so much.

"Clive Beddoe says he favours competition, but his actions do not support that idea." Robert Milton - CEO Air Canada
User currently offlineAC183 From Canada, joined Jul 1999, 1532 posts, RR: 2
Reply 6, posted (15 years 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 1116 times:

I miss those AC 1011's, they were beautiful birds, but they've already had their second chance when they were regenerated a few years ago and have been retired for a second time in about '96. Also, the Canadian aircraft register doesn't show AC as having any 1011's on it (it shows cancelled certificates as well, and the 742's are on there, so...).

However, how about this as possible: Royal airlines has some 1011's parked somewhere, so if CP were to have some aircraft taken away by lessors or creditors, maybe AC would look at taking those back from Royal for extra capacity?

Or alternatively it may be strictly for capacity growth, I heard that AC has been given the OK by Ottawa to start daily YYZ-AMS flights starting July 3, pending Dutch approval. Maybe they will be short of aircraft...

One more thing, Slawko don't slander those Airbus machines. I have heard from many people at AC that they are very good, which is not to take away from Boeing's wonderful airplanes but both manufacturers build great jets. I don't know what axe you have to grind with Airbus, but all I have heard is that they are very capable and that AC is quite happy with them. We really don't need bashing of either manufacturer, and both are very high calibre.

User currently offlineSlawko From Canada, joined May 1999, 3803 posts, RR: 8
Reply 7, posted (15 years 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 1117 times:

I was simply saying that the airbus 340 does not have the cargo capacity that the 742's would have. Also, The YYZ-AMS flight will be operated by an AC 767-200 it starts on July 3rd. And Cp will stop service to Mexico city for a few months to deal with the Aircraft shortages. The YYZnews is an interesting e-mail put out by a YYZ employee and it look like AC is seriously looking at bringing back the 742 in an all cargo config. So that once again Air Canada Cargo will have it's own fleet of aircraft."Air Canada is evaluating the feasibility of bringing back the three stored 747-200s at Marana and converting them into full freighter configuations. This would give Air Canada Cargo their own fleet of aircraft once again. This is just a proposal at the moment and certainly not definite. "
YYZnews March 20th/00

Also other airlines in Canada who fly airbuses seem to be very unhappy with thir products. Canada 300 has grounded one of it's 330-200's because of engine damage that occured in the air, apparently this is an airbus defect and will therefore be paid for by Airbus. Both Air transat and Canada 3000 have had in air engine shut downs more then once on teh 330, and Air Transat is looking at getting rid of all of the 330's and replacing them with 767's. So although the aibus may be economical it is not the best product out there. Other airlines such as Turkish, have dropped their entire airbus fleet and replaced them with Boeing.

Just a though....

"Clive Beddoe says he favours competition, but his actions do not support that idea." Robert Milton - CEO Air Canada
User currently offlineWG YQT From Canada, joined Dec 1999, 151 posts, RR: 1
Reply 8, posted (15 years 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 1096 times:

Where did you get the idea that C3 and TransAt want to get rid of their 330's? Because C3 had a cowling come off in flight (no engine damage, albeit the fuselage was punctured) which they have attributed to a maintenance fault (cowl lock pin not installed) there are no grounds to get rid of them. TransAt is extremely happy with their 330's, fleet commonality with their 757's would be the only reason why they would want to get rid of them, even though they don't. What's this about other airlines in Canada being unhappy with Airbus? Royal is dropping the 757's in favour of more A310's; Canadian was extremly happy with the economics of the A320 and would have ordered more if money had come available; AC loves the airbus; Skyservice has had great operating revenues from their 330's and 320's.......
I'll leave it at that.
Don't say most airlines in Canada are unhappy with Airbus because they aren't! A few technical problems with a new aircraft (Aircraft are considered new were I work for four years, until major checks come due) are teathing problems, just like when you buy a new car.


User currently offlineCPDC10-30 From United Kingdom, joined Feb 2000, 4843 posts, RR: 23
Reply 9, posted (15 years 2 days ago) and read 1094 times:

According to Boeing Airplane Trading, all three 747-200M from Air Canada are still up for sale. Source: http://www.boeing.com/assocproducts/airtrade/availact.pdf

What type of airplanes is AC short of? It would make sense to hold on to the DC-10s if they need extra capacity on Eurpoean/Pacific routes.

User currently offlineC-FTOD From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 10, posted (15 years 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 1071 times:

No Airbus vs Boeing!
With the comments MR. Milton just made reguarding AC's fleet requirements, and the huge shortage, I predict not only will the CP D10s be kept but possibly the L1011s will return for a third round of service. The reason the 2 remaining L10s are not listed under AC is because they were sold or leased to Royal, which then leased them to Chile Inter. They are currently registered CC-CZF and CC-CZR. They were C-FTNI and C-FTNK with Royal and AC. They are parked in Montreal at the Royal Airlines hangar.

User currently offlineAC183 From Canada, joined Jul 1999, 1532 posts, RR: 2
Reply 11, posted (15 years 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 1063 times:

Slawko, I believe Airbus and Boeing are both very competitive and very good aircraft. I don't think it's correct to imply that Airbus is far inferior. I won't get into details, but I can assure you that problems are encountered with both brands, it's just natural that machines have problems sometimes. But as to proving Airbus to be good and reliable aircraft, well, I have been told that some of AC's 320's now have as many hours on them as the 727's did when they were sold, and given their current good reliability and condition that's a pretty good indication of how good an airplane they are.

User currently offlineC-FTOD From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 12, posted (15 years 10 hours ago) and read 1049 times:

What condition are the CP D10's in? Does anybody know if these aircraft have served their useful life already?

User currently offlineAC183 From Canada, joined Jul 1999, 1532 posts, RR: 2
Reply 13, posted (15 years 9 hours ago) and read 1048 times:

I can't comment on the conditions of the DC-10's, but I think they have fairly high fuel consumption, are potentially a problem in debt restructuring, and I think AC in general is trying to shed CP's image of old aircraft, getting rid of the 10's being a key part of that at least for appearances to customers of fleet renewal. Not that they won't decide to use the capacity, but I think they'd rather just use 767's if they can lease more of them.

User currently offlineBarnaby From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 14, posted (15 years 9 hours ago) and read 1046 times:

>>Slawko, I believe Airbus and Boeing are both very competitive and very good aircraft<<

Except that one manufacturer actually competes in the marketplace while the other looks down condescendingly from its socialist workers paradise and needn't bother with such a vile thing as competition (Why compete when you don't have to right?) So much for free-market economics.

User currently offlineCX747 From United States of America, joined May 1999, 4488 posts, RR: 5
Reply 15, posted (15 years 6 hours ago) and read 1043 times:

While I don't know whether or not airlines in Canada are happy with their Airbus products, I can back up Slawko's statements on the A340 and cargo. The A340 is a horrible cargo carrier when compared to a 747-200. When AC retired their 747 "Classics" their cargo capacity was decreased significantly and as we all know cargo is where the money is.

Airbus likes customers to look at operating costs not the "potential profit" from a flight. More than just "operating costs" need to be looked at. AC is finding out now that although the 747-100/200s were more expensive to operate than the A340-300 (Obviously because they are 20 years its senior) they bring in a larger amount of cash due to the cargo capacity and extra seats. That is why AC wants to bring back their 747-200s albeit in 747-200F form. There current cargo constraints is why the 747-400Ms continue to be driven hard and the purchase of up to 10 747-400Fs are being looked into. Bringing the 747-200s back into the fleet as 747-200Fs would be a great idea. It gives the cargo portion of the company time to adjust to operatinng their own aircraft and getting the "ship" in order, then when things are running smootly and business is good the 747-400Fs arrive.

As for A320s having as many hours as the 727-200s when they were retired, I find that very hard to believe. While I am sure that they work very hard, they have a long way to go until they can boast to have served as long as the three holers.

"History does not long entrust the care of freedom to the weak or timid." D. Eisenhower
User currently offlineAC183 From Canada, joined Jul 1999, 1532 posts, RR: 2
Reply 16, posted (15 years 5 hours ago) and read 1036 times:

AC's 727's were about 20 years old when they were retired. Honestly, it was an AC pilot I was told by that they've put that much flying on their 320's in the last few years, and they have drastically increased their fleet utilization. Their schedule redesign in the early '90's gave them the equivalent additional capacity of 7 extra A320's, that's how much their utilization went up.

As far as the 340's carrying less cargo than a 747- of course they would. AC operated 747-200combis, so a 300 seater A340 should carry less freight than a 500 seater 747 with half the seats replaced by freight, it's not hard to figure that out.

I really hope that AC sees fit to operate 747-200F's, but I'm sure there's others that feel that AC sold out its cargo department as anything but a means to sell underfloor freight when they got rid of the DC-8's. I guess times have changed now that they're looking to get back into it.

User currently offlineC-FTOD From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 17, posted (15 years 4 hours ago) and read 1029 times:

We are discussing the 747F as a possibility for AC. Since Lockheed offered an L-1011F conversion a few years back, what do you all think about using AC's last 2 L10s as freighters? Is there any economical viability in this option? They are just sitting at Dorval gathering dust!

User currently offlineDeltaAir From United States of America, joined May 1999, 1094 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (15 years 3 hours ago) and read 1028 times:

Delta is doing it to 13 of their L-1011s, but I am not sure if they are keeping them.

User currently offlineFlygirl From Canada, joined Jun 2011, 0 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (15 years 2 hours ago) and read 1031 times:

Bingo!! All the reasons you listed AC183 are right on the money. As far as being in operational condition? A definite yes for those DC10s. But, IMO, I doubt they will be resurrected for the short term they could be used.

Another poster mentioned the suspension of MEX flights. Correct but not for months nor will the route be totally abandoned. It will be from Apr. 1 until May 15 at which time the Cdn. A 320 will recommence operating it.

Aviation News - Mar 30, 1st article.


User currently offlineTom in NO From United States of America, joined Nov 1999, 7194 posts, RR: 32
Reply 20, posted (15 years ago) and read 1020 times:

Hey DeltaAir:

I posted a question a couple of nights back regarding a number of Delta L-1011's at a desert airport in Southern California (outside Victorville). Are those among the 13 being retrofitted?

Tom in NO (at MSY)

"The criminal ineptitude makes you furious"-Bruce Springsteen, after seeing firsthand the damage from Hurricane Katrina
User currently offlineDeltaAir From United States of America, joined May 1999, 1094 posts, RR: 0
Reply 21, posted (15 years ago) and read 1014 times:

To be quite honest I'm not sure. I know that 1-4 are at the modification center right now. One is near completition and should hopefully be ready soon.

User currently offlineDELTA FLYER From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 22, posted (15 years ago) and read 1022 times:

Why does not Air Canada purchase brand-new B767-400er or B777-200 ? These will certainly compliment Air Canada's new capacity ...

User currently offlineSlawko From Canada, joined May 1999, 3803 posts, RR: 8
Reply 23, posted (14 years 12 months 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 1024 times:


I wish. AC is too CHEAP to buy a good product, they would rather listen to the accountants who tell them that the buses ar good airplanes because they are cheap. Well thats what you get when you get socialists running a continent, cheap and garbage airplanes. Simply, the boeings would stick like a thorn in the side of AC. It is cheaper to use 742's or 767-200's (A new idea announced by Milton a few days ago) Because they already have them and they have pilots that could quickly be re-certified on the 742's. Where as the 777's and 764's would require new training, more mechanics and more crews, this would cost too much money for a recently cash strapped AC.

"Clive Beddoe says he favours competition, but his actions do not support that idea." Robert Milton - CEO Air Canada
User currently offlineDeltaAir From United States of America, joined May 1999, 1094 posts, RR: 0
Reply 24, posted (14 years 12 months 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 1021 times:

Air Canada is trying hard to reduce cost by becoming all Airbus. In all reality, going to one maker is a move that is risky in the long run, espically if you need a product from another company. Like a lot of people have said, the 717 would be perfect for US Airways & Air Canada, but its not Airbus.

25 WG YQT : Slawko has a definite 'thing' for Boeing. Do you have a family member that works at Boeing? How can you say AC is cash strapped? Putting bids out for
26 C-FTOD : Let's discuss the possibility of a shortage in capacity for Air Canada in the summer. What are the options? For the most part,the shortage will be on
27 Ab.400 : Slawko, you seem to have problems with reality.
28 Ramprat : Air Canada is currently looking at both Airbus and Boeing products. They have not comitted to using just one manufacturer over another but we are curr
29 CX747 : Instead of returning the DC-10s or L1011s to service, why doesn't AC return its 747-200Ms to service? They would provide the extra capacity the carrie
30 Mickey : There is absolutley no chance AC will take Royal's old Tristars sitting in Dorval. Both aircraft were deemed unairworthy by Transport Canada when they
31 Navion : The Canadian Aviation News website has a quote from Mr. Milton (the CEO of Air Canada) saying he sees a need for 4-10 744F's in the future. Anyone els
32 CX747 : I also noticed that quote. I would expect them to order 5 with 5 options. Are there any regularly scheduled Toronto-HKG cargo flights? An employee who
33 MIKEYYZ : I don't think there are any Cargo flights to HKG. CX used to have Cargo flights into YYZ but switched them over to ORD. We get KE Cargo once or twice
34 CX747 : I also saw the mention of 747-400F. I would expect them to order 5 with 5 options. The freight industry is a real money maker. Sure would be nice to s
35 C-FTOD : If AC does purchase this many freighters (5-10), could they draw from CP's market share? It is one company now. I presume AC would just consolidate th
36 Flygirl : You're right C-FTOD, the cargo operations are being combined. The bulk of the mail contract is with CP but AC are now moving it (for eg.) A commuting
37 C-FTOD : That's very interesting flygirl. What do you see as potential aircraft types? Are 747Fs warranted? Does anybody know what YUL is like for cargo?
38 AC183 : Part of the problem with bringing back 747-200combis is that while flying mixed pax operations works well on some routes, it's not so good on others.
39 Relix : Delta bought some of AC's L-10's in the early '90s I don't know the status of those ships at present but they were deliverd in outstanding condition t
40 Flygirl : Thought you all would be interested in learning that AC has now decided to keep the last CP DC10 "in reserve" for the summer instead of retiring it. T
41 Navion : If AC doesn't get a dedicated Cargo fleet of it's own, then it would be a natural for them to "farm out" the job to an ACMI carrier like Atlas or Pola
42 C-FTOD : Flygirl I appreciate all this info. I find it VERY interesting that AC will keep hold of DC-10. My guess is that there is a 90% chance it will be used
43 Flygirl : Just to verify the DC10 claim I made (keeping it in reserve) you can check the Cdn. web site under Fleet and see one lonely DC10 still listed however
44 C-FTOD : Flygirl, I'm not surprised about the DC-10 livery problem. A Canada Goose has proportions that must be kept! Still, the wing didn't have to go all the
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