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Implications Of PER-LHR Non-stop  
User currently offlinePanAm747 From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 4242 posts, RR: 8
Posted (9 years 3 months 3 weeks 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 7810 times:

I just received my newest edition of "Airways" magazine (okay, I just read the article...), which has an article on Boeing's 777LR "World Liner". One of the routes mentioned that is now feasible is Perth to London, non-stop in both directions (assuming favorable conditions, of course).

I am curious as to opinions here at a.net (we're the experts, right?  Wink ) as to how this would affect passenger loads on the "Kangaroo Route" from SYD to LHR on Qantas.

It would seem to me that QF and QF fliers will have a distinct advantage in this route, as travellers will not have to transit a foreign country. After arrival in Perth, all Australia flights will be domestic flights (no customs), thereby saving time upon arrival in other cities. I would assume that no other airline would be allowed 5th freedom rights PER-other domestic Australian cities, and therefore would keep their routings through Singapore, Hong Kong, and wherever else they would route passengers.

I am especially interested in Australian a.netter's knowledge of this matter - I am unaware of QF's fleet plans at the moment, but I would suspect this could be a big deal.

All replies (except A vs B, of course) appreciated!!


Pan Am:The World's Most Experienced Airline - P(oor) S(ailor's) A(irline): San Diego's Hometown Airline-Catch Our Smile!
68 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offline747firstclass From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 1, posted (9 years 3 months 3 weeks 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 7784 times:

For a PER-LHR flight to happen, wouldnt QF have to get UK approval and in return, for approval, BA would also want to operate such a flight

User currently offlinePanAm747 From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 4242 posts, RR: 8
Reply 2, posted (9 years 3 months 3 weeks 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 7770 times:

747FirstClass, you are correct. I would imagine a lot of airlines might try and fly to Perth non-stop, if it were possible. But would BA have any traffic rights from there? True, they are in OneWorld with QF, but I am wondering if QF would hold an advantage from that point on.

Thanks!!



Pan Am:The World's Most Experienced Airline - P(oor) S(ailor's) A(irline): San Diego's Hometown Airline-Catch Our Smile!
User currently offlineAC787 From Canada, joined Mar 2005, 337 posts, RR: 1
Reply 3, posted (9 years 3 months 3 weeks 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 7768 times:

Quoting PanAm747 (Thread starter):
I am curious as to opinions here at a.net (we're the experts, right? ) as to how this would affect passenger loads on the "Kangaroo Route" from SYD to LHR on Qantas.

I don't think it would affect the passenger loads on the Kangaroo route all that much since I don't think too many ppl travel from Perth to LHR through Sydney. That would involve 5 hours of backtracking. Wouldn't most passengers from Perth currently connect to flights to LHR via SIN or DXB as that would make the most sense to me.


User currently offline6thfreedom From Bermuda, joined Sep 2004, 3322 posts, RR: 20
Reply 4, posted (9 years 3 months 3 weeks 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 7675 times:

If you look at the great cuircle mapper, you will find that there is very little difference between a MEL-SIN-LHR flight compared to MEL-PER-LHR. In fact, via PER is longer. So given that a terminal change is required in PER (unlike SIN), why would you bother going via PER. I think most travellers would prefer the option of travelling via an 'international' port such as KUL, SIN, BKK, HKG or DXB, rather than transfer via PER. I cant see this happening in the short term.

-----------------------------------
2 segment path:
10691 mi

MEL (37°40'24"S 144°50'36"E)
PER (31°56'25"S 115°58'01"E)
1681 mi
PER (31°56'25"S 115°58'01"E)
LHR (51°28'39"N 00°27'41"W)
9009 mi
---------------------------------
2 segment path:
10508 mi
MEL (37°40'24"S 144°50'36"E)
SIN (01°21'21"N 103°59'15"E)
3744 mi
SIN (01°21'21"N 103°59'15"E)
LHR (51°28'39"N 00°27'41"W)
6765 mi
---------------------------------
2 segment path:
11050 mi
SYD (33°56'46"S 151°10'38"E)
PER (31°56'25"S 115°58'01"E)
2041 mi
PER (31°56'25"S 115°58'01"E)
LHR (51°28'39"N 00°27'41"W)
9009 mi


User currently offlineOzGlobal From France, joined Nov 2004, 2711 posts, RR: 4
Reply 5, posted (9 years 3 months 3 weeks 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 7631 times:

Whilst on the face of it an interesting thought, if you've done the Kangaroo route, you realize that :

i) Perth-LHR is a small market
ii) MEL or SYD-PER-LHR is longer than via SIN and therefore pointless
iii) LHR-MEL is not comerically viable in terms of range vs. load capacity

Therefore, 772LR LHR - Oz won't happen.



When all's said and done, there'll be more said than done.
User currently offlineRatypus From United Kingdom, joined Apr 2004, 176 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (9 years 3 months 3 weeks 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 7479 times:

Yes - it's true that going via Perth involves no international transfer, however:

1) on the BA/Qantas Kangaroo routes, at least, passengers stay airside in SIN/BKK and so don't need to clear customs etc

2) as someone has already mentioned, the domestic and international terminals at PER are completely separate, and actually quite a long way apart. Would require luggage re-check etc - of course, this would be a problem for Qantas, who might want to make the PER-SYD leg domestic. For other airlines, I'm not so sure - BA wouldn't get traffic rights to do that. But that then begs the question, why would you fly via PER in the first place, given its a longer routing?

3) Unless there were enough flights a day LHR-PER, this routing would never compete with the original Kangaroo routes in terms of flexibility - BA/Qantas have 4 flights/day between them?

We won't be seeing a LHR-PER non-stop unless that market alone can support it - I'm not sure it could. In any event, the routing doesn't save 'that much' time over what you'd do at present, which is change in SIN for the 4.5 hour onward flight to PER.


User currently offlineAntares From Australia, joined Jun 2004, 1402 posts, RR: 39
Reply 7, posted (9 years 3 months 3 weeks 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 7442 times:

Let us also keep the real world in frame.

Perth is running out of water. It could be the first modern city to be abandoned because of a water shortage.

This is a serious worry, as the underground aquifers meant that Perth has been drawing down for much of its supply the accumulation of hundreds of thousands of years of natural subterranean seepage.

And it is fast vanishing.


User currently offlineQantas077 From Australia, joined Jan 2004, 5850 posts, RR: 40
Reply 8, posted (9 years 3 months 3 weeks 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 7416 times:

Quoting Ratypus (Reply 6):
2) as someone has already mentioned, the domestic and international terminals at PER are completely separate, and actually quite a long way apart. Would require luggage re-check etc - of course, this would be a problem for Qantas, who might want to make the PER-SYD leg domestic. For other airlines, I'm not so sure - BA wouldn't get traffic rights to do that. But that then begs the question, why would you fly via PER in the first place, given its a longer routing?

yes the terminals are seperate but that will be changing in the near future, the terminals will become one, the baggage is no problem, seeing as though your going to be on a QF flight all the way through to LHR you luggage will be checked as such and, its no different then me flying from Perth to LA via Sydney, i start my trip at the domestic terminal, my bag gets checked to LA and i don't see it til i arrive, a bus takes me from sydney domestic to sydney internation, in Perth the terminal bus takes the passengers around via the airport ring road which is not available to the public, only transferring passengers.

BA has rights to fly to Perth, they stopped flying here a few years ago, as for the length of the journey, it'd take about 16-17hrs from Lhr-Per nonstop and the flight to Melbourne or Sydney from Perth would be in the order of about 3hrs.

at the moment Qantas flights from Lhr-Bkk-Syd take around 21-22 hours, via Singapore its about 21 hours, via HK is about 21-22 hours. i've travelled from Perth to Melbourne on occasions in under 3 hours, you can't fly from Singapore to Melbourne in that sort of time, obviously the reverse routing is longer, though on a good day it's only 3.5hrs from Melboure to Perth or 4 hours from Sydney to Perth as opposed to 8hrs to Singapore and 13.5hrs to Lhr, 9.5 hrs to Bkk and 12.5 to Lhr and about 9.5 to HK and 13hr to Lhr.

so the amount of time saved is rather minimal, services on the 3x weekly runs to LHR on QF are doing well, full capacity has been seen on most of the flights as with the other major carriers that fly the Perth-Asia-London route.

SQ regularly carries a full load out of Perth on its 3 services a day, as do MH, CX and so-on, the market is good out of Perth, we just need to develop the infrastructure.

as for the water issue, thats a bit of a over exaggeration, the whole country is low on water, not just Perth!

if Qantas see's merit and an oppurtunity to increase profits by operating such a flight then i'm sure they'll introduce it, whether water is flowing or not! lets bare in mind QF hasn't even made a decision on what a/c it's going to order for it's future!

[Edited 2005-04-09 12:14:44]


a true friend is someone who sees the pain in your eyes, while everyone else believes the smile on your face.
User currently offlineAntares From Australia, joined Jun 2004, 1402 posts, RR: 39
Reply 9, posted (9 years 3 months 3 weeks 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 7358 times:

Qantas077,

You're way out on Perth-Sydney timing. Its usually closer to four hours eastbound and I've seen it scheduled for around five hours westbound.

Seems to me the need to report on time statistics has pumped up all the timetables to realistic levels taking account of the usual traffic delays. Otherwise the carriers look like a pile of dung when the monthly figures are released. Even Sydney-Melbourne today is quoting schedule times up to 10 minutes longer than the Lockheed Electras.

Such is progress.


User currently offlineRazza74 From Australia, joined Mar 2005, 99 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (9 years 3 months 3 weeks 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 7306 times:

Antares

I find it interesting that you say Perth could the first modern city to be abandoned, we are building a desalination plant, looking at extracting an amount from the Yarragadee aqufier and also looking at bringing water from the Kimberly region which is inundated by monsoonal floods each year.

The Federal Bureau of Transport and Regions Economics list PER - SIN as the 3rd busiest international air route to and from Australia behind SYD - AKL and SYD - SIN

There would be a very limited market PER -LON as most People in Perth choose to holiday in Asia as the cost of a 2 week holiday in the UK in comparison to a 2 week holiday within Asia is a lot more



Ahh the joy of living under a flightpath
User currently offlineBeany From United Kingdom, joined Apr 2005, 181 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (9 years 3 months 3 weeks 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 7282 times:

Quoting OzGlobal (Reply 5):
Whilst on the face of it an interesting thought, if you've done the Kangaroo route, you realize that :

i) Perth-LHR is a small market
ii) MEL or SYD-PER-LHR is longer than via SIN and therefore pointless
iii) LHR-MEL is not comerically viable in terms of range vs. load capacity

Therefore, 772LR LHR - Oz won't happen.

I just have to correct you here. London to Perth is not a small market at all. I believe Perth has the second highest amount of English ex-pats in Australia after Sydney. I for sure have 17 members of family there that I have visited on numerous occasions. If you just take a walk around the place then half the people seem to be Brits or of British origin. I have flown there with Britannia, British Airways and Singapore Airlines and they were all stuffed full of Brits. TUI are restarting weekly charter flights to Perth and Sydney this year with there Thomson (formerly Britannia) 767-300's. The reason they have chosen Perth and Sydney - highest amount of expats.

Quoting Razza74 (Reply 10):
There would be a very limited market PER -LON as most People in Perth choose to holiday in Asia as the cost of a 2 week holiday in the UK in comparison to a 2 week holiday within Asia is a lot more

Its not just Australian people that will use a Perth to London service, it would be stuffed full of Brits especially between November and March.


User currently offlineAntares From Australia, joined Jun 2004, 1402 posts, RR: 39
Reply 12, posted (9 years 3 months 3 weeks 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 7245 times:

Razza,

I don't want to see Perth driven to obscurity by a water shortage but do you really live there? The covered canal from the Kimberley lost the opposition leader his position as well as any hope of forming a government in the state election and would have been the biggest white elephant in the history of irrigation, Make that an expensive white elephant.

Everyone would like to see desalination work at less than the price of good champagne per litre, and I believe the technology will eventually be found, courtesy of unlimited cheap electrical energy from controlled fusion. But not in the sum of our lifetimes.

The latest acquifer plan proves some people are too dumb to be allowed to breed. We are consuming in decades what took hundreds of thousands of years to accumulate. It is nothing more than a temporary, intellectually tragic stop gap measure.

Perth is a terrific city, one of the best places on earth to live in my opinion, and deserves the great choice of flights it has today.

But to stop those flights one day becoming evacuation flights, Perth needs to give up its swimming pools, and manicured lawns and rose gardens. Choke! You can become a modern darid climate city if you work at it with the right water conservation policies.

The scientist who made the prediction incidentally was Tim Flannery, author of The Future Eaters. A good read for your next long flight.

Antares


User currently offlineNAV20 From Australia, joined Nov 2003, 9909 posts, RR: 36
Reply 13, posted (9 years 3 months 3 weeks 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 7230 times:

Good question, PanAm747.

Boeing and Qantas are already discussing publicity flights Heathrow-Sydney/Melbourne direct with the 777-200LR. The winds are favourable that way, and all it would take is an auxiliary tank in the freight bay. At the moment, going the other way is not feasible - even though the distance is 'only' 9,174 nms, against a max. range of 10,500, the prevailing winds mean that the aeroplane could not make it and still have the statutory fuel reserve.

I've heard that Perth-Heathrow direct IS feasible, though I agree with others that the distance isn't a lot less - maybe the Indian Ocean winds are more favourable. If it is, a quick 'remain in your seats' refuelling stop, while they board Perth-booked passengers from a 'mobile lounge', would be infinitely preferable to about three hours spent hanging around Singapore Airport.

After all, the first North Atlantic jet services (Comet4/707) always reserved the right to stop at Gander (especially west-bound) to top up fuel if necessary. Nevertheless, they were popular from day one.

Another option would be a fuel stop at Darwin - pretty well on the great circle route. And passengers from other Australian cities could join there.

Direct flights to and from any US destination (especially NYC) are already feasible once the 772LR is in service, and I think that it is only a matter of time before they happen.

[Edited 2005-04-09 15:19:46]


"Once you have flown, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards.." - Leonardo da Vinci
User currently offlineStickShaker From Australia, joined Sep 2004, 753 posts, RR: 5
Reply 14, posted (9 years 3 months 3 weeks 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 7216 times:

Quoting Ratypus (Reply 6):
2) as someone has already mentioned, the domestic and international terminals at PER are completely separate, and actually quite a long way apart.

Doesn't matter - Qantas 747 domestic flights (SYD-PER) regularly use the international terminal anyway. I've flown SYD-PER domestic on a Qantas 743 that continued on to South Africa. There would be no changing terminals or associated problems with baggage.

Quoting 747firstclass (Reply 1):
For a PER-LHR flight to happen, wouldnt QF have to get UK approval and in return, for approval, BA would also want to operate such a flight

Doubt that it would be a problem. BA stopped flying to Perth several years ago and currently code shares with QF's 2 services per day to SIN/LHR.
QF/BA only capture a small amount of the PER-LHR traffic (requires a change of plane in SIN) - most of it goes via SQ, EK, MH and others.

Quoting OzGlobal (Reply 5):
Perth-LHR is a small market

Its not as small as many may think. The current resources boom in WA sees a lot of business traffic in and out of Perth in addition to the significant UK expat traffic. The current QF arrangement is messy and not usually the first choice for most passengers. A well thought-out and marketed PER-LHR could be quite successful. No other airline (except BA) can offer LHR-Oz non stop - they must stop at their respective hubs in Dubai/Asia.

Cheers,
StickShaker


User currently offlineQantas077 From Australia, joined Jan 2004, 5850 posts, RR: 40
Reply 15, posted (9 years 3 months 3 weeks 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 7164 times:

Quoting Antares (Reply 9):
Qantas077,

You're way out on Perth-Sydney timing. Its usually closer to four hours eastbound and I've seen it scheduled for around five hours westbound.

sorry to burst your bubble but the scheduled time and the actual flight times are usually quite different, Qantas publishes just over 4hrs on the website, i've never sat on a plane with QF on a per-syd flight thats 4hrs, i did the flight a short time ago and it was 3hrs 25min Per-Syd, the return was 4hrs 40min, it was a very fast flight, even so its about 5hrs to Singapore from Perth and just over 5hrs on the reverse, so either way you look at it it's closer per-syd then per-sin in terms of travel time and distance.

Quoting StickShaker (Reply 14):
Doesn't matter - Qantas 747 domestic flights (SYD-PER) regularly use the international terminal anyway. I've flown SYD-PER domestic on a Qantas 743 that continued on to South Africa. There would be no changing terminals or associated problems with baggage.

Qantas has NOT used the 744 to Perth domestically for quite some time now, its an occasional service and no longer goes to Jnb, when it does come to Perth on the odd occasion it goes to the domestic terminal only, Qantas no longer serves Jnb from Perth, SAA is the only carrier out of Perth to Jnb. Qantas stopped Joburg from Perth about 2 or 3 years ago.

They also use the 747 on Melbourne-Perth services, these also use the domestic terminal only, these, like the occasional QF 744's from Sydney are operated when an A330 goes U/S or school holidays.

but the market is pretty big out of Perth for Brits, lots of Brits living here and as mentioned one of the biggest populations outside of the UK.

also, you can take QF15 on monday, wed and friday from Perth to London via Singapore, same plane the whole way, 3 class service with all flights fitted with the new skybed. usually a 2.5hr layover in Singapore.

as for the water situation, it won't dry up in our lifetime so i don't think that even enters the equation, not sure what our water situation has to do with QF flying nonstop Per-Lhr-Per?!?!

[Edited 2005-04-09 15:50:42]


a true friend is someone who sees the pain in your eyes, while everyone else believes the smile on your face.
User currently offlineAvek00 From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 4336 posts, RR: 19
Reply 16, posted (9 years 3 months 3 weeks 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 7141 times:

Quoting Beany (Reply 11):
London to Perth is not a small market at all.

Yes it is, in terms of those pax would pay the hefty (20%+) premium required to make a nonstop service viable. Expat VFR traffic is simply too price-sensitive for a nonstop - those travelers will stick to one-stop charters or scheduled flights and lose a few hours on their holiday vs. spend more for a nonstop. The serious business traffic in Australia is in SYD and MEL - unless and until an aircraft can perform SYD/MEL nonstop, QF will almost certainly stick to aircraft (744ER or 744Adv) and routings (1-stops to Europe via SIN/BKK) that allow the airline to maximize its cargo loads and pax capacity.



Live life to the fullest.
User currently offlineQantas077 From Australia, joined Jan 2004, 5850 posts, RR: 40
Reply 17, posted (9 years 3 months 3 weeks 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 7123 times:

the serious engine room of this countries economy is WA, not Sydney or Melbourne, the traffic is pertty healthy out of Perth airport, full flights each day with the major asian carriers with most going on to Lhr or Europe, in the future i think you'll see QF order aircraft that will be capable of doing Per-Lhr nonstop so that it can free up 747's for other services.

20% more ontop of a QF ticket which you can get for about $1400 return is quite a small price, you'd look at a usual nonstop them being about $1600 without taxes. you'd save money on not stopping in Singapore, especially with airport taxes and fuelsurcharges per sector, it all evens out in the end.



a true friend is someone who sees the pain in your eyes, while everyone else believes the smile on your face.
User currently offlineStickShaker From Australia, joined Sep 2004, 753 posts, RR: 5
Reply 18, posted (9 years 3 months 3 weeks 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 7123 times:

Quoting Qantas077 (Reply 15):
Qantas has NOT used the 744 to Perth domestically for quite some time now

Wasn't aware the service had ceased, I flew it about 4 years ago.
Cant see what the problem is with a LHR-PER-SYD 772LR using the PER international terminal. If pax needed to transfer to domestic flights to other cities in Oz then its much the same situation as with international flights arriving in SYD. Qantas would probably provide a domestic checkin facility and shuttle bus as they do in Sydney. Dont really see it as a show stopper.

Cheers,
StickShaker


User currently offlineNAV20 From Australia, joined Nov 2003, 9909 posts, RR: 36
Reply 19, posted (9 years 3 months 3 weeks 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 7112 times:

Quoting Avek00 (Reply 16):
Yes it is, in terms of those pax would pay the hefty (20%+) premium required to make a nonstop service viable.

Avekoo, why the assumption that a non-stop service would involve premium fares?

As I understand it, the 777-200LR has tankage for only 50,000 gallons - but a range of 10,500 nms. A 747-400 carries 65,000, an A380 82,000 gallons, and both of them would need most of that just to reach Singapore. The 'seat-mile' costs of the twin-engined Triple Seven just HAVE to be a lot lower than those of a jumbo with four of the same engines.

So, given one set less of airport charges and a lot less journey time, I would expect the non-stop fare to be substantially LESS, if anything, than the fare for the current two-hop trips.

[Edited 2005-04-09 16:24:07]


"Once you have flown, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards.." - Leonardo da Vinci
User currently offlineAvek00 From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 4336 posts, RR: 19
Reply 20, posted (9 years 3 months 3 weeks 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 7112 times:

Quoting Qantas077 (Reply 17):
the serious engine room of this countries economy is WA, not Sydney or Melbourne, the traffic is pertty healthy out of Perth airport, full flights each day with the major asian carriers with most going on to Lhr or Europe, in the future i think you'll see QF order aircraft that will be capable of doing Per-Lhr nonstop so that it can free up 747's for other services.

QF has traditionally emphasized cargo carrying capacity, something it would lose altogether on a PER-LHR nonstop. The pax traffic ex-SYD/MEL might be strong enough and willing to pay large premiums (esp. for the J/F cabins - Y tickets won't cut it) to make it worthwhile despite the cargo loss, but the traffic ex-PER certainly is not..



Live life to the fullest.
User currently offlineUAMAYBACH1239 From United States of America, joined Apr 2004, 221 posts, RR: 0
Reply 21, posted (9 years 3 months 3 weeks 23 hours ago) and read 6455 times:

NAV20 From Australia, joined Nov 2003, 283 posts, RR: 2
Avekoo, why the assumption that a non-stop service would involve premium fares?
So, given one set less of airport charges and a lot less journey time, I would expect the non-stop fare to be substantially LESS, if anything, than the fare for the current two-hop trips.


Any time a carrier offers service on a new a/c or city pairs, they will charge a premium fare. Mainly because everyone wants to be among the first to say they flew the plane or that route. Prices would only drop slightly. You will have to pay for the convienence and braging rights to say you flew on the BOEING 777 LR  cloudnine 



a/c flown 737-222/322/522 757/747-1-2-4, 767-2-3, 777-2-3, A319-20, DC10-10-30, L1011-3-5, 727-222adv, MD85-90 flyourfri
User currently offlineVS747SPUR From United Kingdom, joined Mar 2005, 373 posts, RR: 0
Reply 22, posted (9 years 3 months 3 weeks 19 hours ago) and read 5758 times:

Quoting Beany (Reply 11):
I have flown there with Britannia, British Airways and Singapore Airlines and they were all stuffed full of Brits. TUI are restarting weekly charter flights to Perth and Sydney this year with there Thomson (formerly Britannia) 767-300's.

From what airport will this be from ?

VS747SPUR



Fly DL
User currently offlineVS74741R From United Kingdom, joined Feb 2005, 272 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (9 years 3 months 3 weeks 19 hours ago) and read 5723 times:

Quoting VS747SPUR (Reply 22):
From what airport will this be from ?

Probably from LGW, It won't be LHR and Luton and Stansted probably wouldn't have the passengers to fill a 767 as easily as LGW.



Obviously a Virgin Atlantic fan!!!
User currently offlineN1120A From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 26376 posts, RR: 76
Reply 24, posted (9 years 3 months 3 weeks 19 hours ago) and read 5702 times:

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 19):
The 'seat-mile' costs of the twin-engined Triple Seven just HAVE to be a lot lower than those of a jumbo with four of the same engines.

Well, they don't HAVE to be, as they are not. The seat-mile costs for the 744 (and A380) are most definately lower than those on the 772LR, and as Avek00 said, they are even lower than the 773ER. Even though you burn more fuel with the larger plane, you also carry a significant number more in passengers that more than makes up for it. Hence the term "seat-mile". On your logic, the 73G would have lower seat-mile costs than the 772 or 744, when in reality its seat-mile costs are higher than the 738, 752 and many others.

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 19):
As I understand it, the 777-200LR has tankage for only 50,000 gallons - but a range of 10,500 nms.

Well, no. It has a range of just under 9500nms at this point.

Quoting UAMAYBACH1239 (Reply 21):
why the assumption that a non-stop service would involve premium fares?
So, given one set less of airport charges and a lot less journey time, I would expect the non-stop fare to be substantially LESS, if anything, than the fare for the current two-hop trips.

Non-stop saves time, which is what business travelers want. That means they are willing to pay more for the service than if they have to route through a third airport, taking up more than 2 hours that could otherwise be spent on the ground on either end.



Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
25 Antares : Just for the record dreamers, Qantas tells analysts the 777-200LR and the A345 are not worthy of consideration for non-stops in either direction to ei
26 Razza74 : Antares, I have lived in and around Fremantle nearly all my life. I totally agree with you on the swimming pool and manicured lawn mentality, we have
27 Antares : Hi Razza, Give my regards to Freo, a top spot. I reckon we should be offering monster tax breaks to Aussie scientists to come up with large scale solu
28 6thfreedom : last time i checked, transit pax at singapore didnt have to pay airport taxes! as for the surcharges, i cant see these being around for ever. if fuel
29 Beany : The flights will be from LGW. They begin in mid November and go through until the beginning of February. The stops will be at Abu Dhabi and Singapore
30 Post contains links NAV20 : Funny that Qantas are ALSO saying things like this? "The choice of Sydney for some of the test flights is no coincidence, as Boeing has Qantas on its
31 Antares : NAV20, I was there when Dixon said categorically NO. That doesn't mean they aren't looking for hub busting aircraft. It means they are saying NO to ex
32 OzGlobal : Nor as large as you suggest, when you consider: i) an Ultra long haul flight has to be justified on premium J and F class revenue (cf SQ NYC-SIN). ii
33 Post contains images NAV20 : Agree entirely, Antares, that it is a question of which of two companies prospers - or even survives. We're both privileged to be able to watch the ga
34 Antares : NAV20, A lot of what you say strikes me as pretty much spot on. However a few things that may fill in some of the detail, and perhaps lead some of us
35 Post contains images Qantas077 : but if they do decide to stay overnight, it comes into play! QF has also just doubled it's fuel surcharge for International sectors! Antares if you k
36 6thfreedom : Just for the record..... OD passenger movements UK-Australia for 2004. Perth - 269,000 pax Melb - 410,000 pax [+ leakage to SYD] Syd - 905,000 pax. So
37 Qantas077 : thats not a very good way to prove the market is double, lets not forget that Sydney has over 5 million people, Melbourne over 4 million and Perth no
38 6thfreedom : Mate, what are u on about. The point im making is that based on current figures, the Perth market is relatively small, regardless of population size.
39 NAV20 : Just don't know enough about airline marketing, 6thfreedom. But why not try twice-weekly flights with a high proportion of business class and seat/bed
40 6thfreedom : NAV 20 - I'm not expert either, but from my experience, with anything less than daily to a major market such as the UK is a BIG no no. business pax n
41 Qantas077 : smaller population is of course going to equal lower figures, does that make it any less viable? Qantas could soundly operate Lhr-Per nonstop with th
42 Post contains images 6thfreedom : Geez mate, wouldn't want to have you in my network planning division! LOL which side of the fence are you going to fall on?? Could QF make money out
43 Post contains images Qantas077 : making money and it being a successful operation are 2 valid points, QF flew to Paris and made money, the reason it wasn't successful was the lack of
44 TSV : Well it's not entirely "new" and depends on who you talk to as for a while there it was a "drama" but as George Formby used to say "all turned out ri
45 Antares : NAV20, I've just been in Singapore. What do you mean the hot and sweaty airport. The damn thing is air conditioned like the inside of a vegetable cris
46 6thfreedom : Qantas077, probably best if we agree to disagree on this one..... What you are referring to in both FCO and CDG services is profitless volume. Yes, Qa
47 Chinaeastern : my understanding is that a domestic-international transit in australia is far worse than international-international connection in SIN. however, QF ca
48 6thfreedom : cheeky.... VERY cheeky Chinaeastern, especially with what is going on in Bali at the moment!
49 Zvezda : I think you're right. The B777-200LR is too large for the LHR-PER market. The B787-8 might be the right tool for the job.
50 Qantas077 : to large? Qantas fills a 744 3 times a week ex Perth to London via Singapore and your saying the nonstop 777-200LR is to large? how do you figure tha
51 Beany : You must remember that BA used to operate to Perth for 34 years before ending in July 2000. It wasn't because the service wasn't making money that it
52 6thfreedom : I don't think that there are sufficient pax to allow for more than 3pw non-stop... and 3pw is not sufficient for business class pax... and business cl
53 Antares : 6thfreedom, I'd agree with everything except the $$$ being made in business class as a generalisation. We see this once inviolable rule starting to br
54 Post contains images Qantas077 : i wasn't suggesting that QF drop Per-Sin to connect with other europe flights, i'm not that stupid, not everyone here goes to London, i was commentin
55 Chinaeastern : i know, release the poor Queensland girl!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
56 Zvezda : Less than daily service never works on premium routes. LHR-PER needs high yields to cover the high costs of the ultra-long distance nonstop. One can'
57 Chinaeastern : not neccesarily for Qantas, they still operate other flights with 1 stop. so frequency wise, premium pax still have the choice of doing non-stop one
58 Zvezda : I see your point, but can you cite an example of an airline making a 3pw ultra-long haul work?
59 Mariner : Just because it is technically possible doesn't make it an awfully good idea. For anyone from the east coast, going to the UK via Perth means that it
60 Zvezda : It would only be justified by the O+D traffic from Perth and those within driving distance of Perth. That's why I think a B777-200LR is too large for
61 Qantas077 : Aerolineas Argentina, Lan Chile, both fly to Australia with limited services, AA only operates 2 flights a week to Sydney i think, Lan is 3. Singapor
62 KEno : I believe you meant HA, they fly to SYD 4x a week.
63 ZK-NBT : He's talking about AR who fly to SYD 4x weekly, as do LA who will soon go to 5 weekly and planned daily next year.
64 Qantas077 : correct, my mistake with the typo but both started out with limited services and have managed to make them successful. it can be done and if those 2
65 6thfreedom : I think ultra long range is over 15 hrs non-stop. or thereabouts. Categorizing LA, AR, or SQ CPH services in the same category as a 19 hr LHR-PER non
66 Qantas077 : then i have to tell you your wrong, longhaul is considered above 8hrs nonstop and ultra above 12hrs, i'd say a trip from EZE-SYD easily fits in that
67 6thfreedom : I suppose the biggest difference between long haul, and ULTRA long haul is that to do ULTRA, you need a brand new aircraft like the A345 or the B777LR
68 AGANX : QF might be able to use PER as a hub as any city in europe can be reached by PER using B772LR. This way QF can serve Europe from Eastern Australia com
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