Jayspilot From United States of America, joined May 2001, 298 posts, RR: 0 Posted (10 years 1 month 2 weeks 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 13193 times:
United is going down and the righting is on the wall.(see below, what is this the 30th time they have asked for an extension) I hope they crash so hard, (not litterally) The way that company is run is soo messed up and how little most of there employees care about anything makes me not feel sorry for them.. There is too much capacity in the industry and i think cleaning out this old dieing beast will do just fine.
UAL Asks for Time for Reorganization Plan
Saturday April 9, 12:06 pm ET
CHICAGO (Reuters) - UAL Corp. (OTC CTA (Switzerland)">BB:UALAQ.OB - News), parent of bankrupt United Airlines, has asked a federal bankruptcy court for another two months to file its bankruptcy reorganization plan without interference from other parties.
In documents filed with the court on Friday UAL asked for an extension of the so-called exclusivity period through July 1. The current exclusivity period is due to expire April 30.
The No. 2 U.S. carrier, in bankruptcy since December 2002, has been given previous extensions.
"An extension of the exclusive periods will enable United to continue its hard work and implement many of its restructuring initiatives," UAL said in the documents.
United, along with the rest of the industry, has been battered by soaring fuel costs, weak revenue and competition from low-cost rivals.
Also on Friday, the union representing the carrier's flight attendants said UAL's management is "refusing to meet the same rigorous standards that employees are held to." The Association of Flight Attendants warned the airline that it would terminate its collective bargaining agreement in 20 days if it did not fix the problem.
The flight attendants in January ratified a five-year labor deal that would save the airline $131 million annually. The deal cut employee wages by 9.5 percent.
As part of its agreement with UAL, the AFA retained the right to audit the company's numbers to ensure that employee sacrifices were equitable.
"It's completely absurd that we wouldn't be meeting our cost savings target on any level," UAL spokeswoman Jean Medina said. "We still need a significant amount of labor savings."
The airline has said it needs to secure $725 million in annual labor savings to exit Chapter 11
AT502B From South Africa, joined Dec 2004, 347 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (10 years 1 month 2 weeks 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 13056 times:
Hardly a sign the airline is going to go under any time soon. They would be crazy to come out of CH 11,until they're ready with cost savings in place and hopefully the price of oil stabilizes under $50/barrel.
BritPilot777 From United Kingdom, joined Apr 2004, 1075 posts, RR: 2
Reply 3, posted (10 years 1 month 2 weeks 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 13035 times:
For the Love Of God stop with this United is going down bullshit. Im sure other a.net members along with myself have totally had enough of it.
It really doesn't matter if they are on the verge of shutting down, ANYONE who loves the Aviation Industry, and respects in it, Should Wish every God dam night that United survives. I sure as hell don't want to see 1000s and 1000s of people lose their job.
Studying to be a pilot I really don't want to see a MAJOR US airline go down as it would have severe implications to all airlines around the world.
FlyHoss From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 598 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (10 years 1 month 2 weeks 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 12994 times:
I'm no fan of UAL either, but take a more pragmatic approach (and a downer) please.
One, if UAL were to cease operations entirely, what makes you think that an LCC or legacy carrier wouldn't fill the gap? Is there too much capacity and thus too little pricing power? Yes. Does that stop anyone from starting another carrier and/or any other carrier from overexpanding (to fill that void)? NO!
Two, ask yourself why UAL's creditor's aren't filing their own (reorganization) plans. How has UAL been able to go this far in Chapter 11 without any attempt to emerge (I predict that corporate Chapter 11 laws will be rewritten after (but only after) UAL is done abusing them)? Are the creditors "in so deep" that they can't afford a UAL shut-down?
Three, does UAL have the Santa Claus of all bankruptcy judges? I think so, but again, the creditors aren't really pushing the issue, are they?
Four, wouldn't UAL and the other legacy carriers be profitable with more normal fuel prices? They'd (UAL) would be able to exit Chapter 11 then...
Where does it end? I don't know. Maybe someday (a couple of years from now) UAL will be forced to shed some assets and emerge or maybe be pieced off entirely. What also bothers me is that UAL has billions in assets (LHR access, the Pacific route authorities, too) but won't fund their own pensions, i.e. having (keeping) their cake and eating it, too while we taxpayers are forced to pay their pensions through the PBGC.
AeroWesty From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 20822 posts, RR: 62
Reply 5, posted (10 years 1 month 2 weeks 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 12959 times:
This is really twisted. It's nothing other than an attempt by the author to write a catchy title so he can get people to click on it enough that it'll appear on the front page of a.net as one of the most popular threads.
WesternA318 From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 5741 posts, RR: 23
Reply 6, posted (10 years 1 month 2 weeks 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 12909 times:
My thoughts exactly AeroWesty, although Ive been author myself of some previous threads on DL shutting down, Ive managed to learn my lesson and just hope that nothing happens to any airline, since I dont want to see 1000s of people jobless. Despite the fact that i always chose F9 and CO over UA or DL, I still wish those people all the luck.
no..i think its best that capitalism work its wonders........in the long run, it would be best for some consolidation, liquidations, etc.....that is what centuries of historical data has shown.........i'm not saying its going to be UA, but it will happen, even if oil goes sub $40....i doubt some of these air carriers will still exist.........law of the jungle..
Apodino From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 4349 posts, RR: 6
Reply 10, posted (10 years 1 month 2 weeks 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 12835 times:
Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 5): This is really twisted. It's nothing other than an attempt by the author to write a catchy title so he can get people to click on it enough that it'll appear on the front page of a.net as one of the most popular threads.
Absolutely disgusting, cheap and tawdry.
And he did this after I had started another thread on the exact same topic, but titled it as it was, United getting an extension. I don't know what the future holds, but I would rather not count any airlines out yet because you don't know whats going to happen in this dynamic world. After all my freshman year at ERAU someone said that TWA was in good financial shape but USAirways wasn't. In 2005, you know the rest of the story and Carl Ichan is now trying to milk Blockbuster for more money. (Sorry, had to get that in)
102IAHexpress From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 1157 posts, RR: 3
Reply 11, posted (10 years 1 month 2 weeks 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 12807 times:
As I have stated in other posts I hope United emerges from bankruptcy and becomes profitable. But I think a lot of people are just fed up with their abuse of chapter 11 protection. From a tax payers prospective, why should I help pick up the tab on United’s failed pension program. And why should other airlines and their employees waste resources and needlessly compete against a failed airline?
ExFATboy From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 2974 posts, RR: 9
Reply 12, posted (10 years 1 month 2 weeks 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 12751 times:
I don't think this filing is any harbinger of UA's imminent shutdown. On the other hand, I think this judge really needs to start putting pressure on UA to get on with it already...Ch 11 is not meant to be a permanent state of affairs. I can't help but think that UA management is deliberately abusing Chapter 11 at this point - they have been in bankruptcy proceedings over 27 months now.
What I would like to see is for the judge to go ahead and grant the extension, but also tell UA management that this is the final extension of exclusivity and that if they're not ready to file the plan on July 1, any interested and qualified party may then step in and file competiting reorg plans.
Now as FlyHoss points out, the creditors committee doesn't seem to be getting too worked up about the situation, which makes one suspect that they are indeed at a point where they can't afford a UA shutdown.
I don't know enough about bankruptcy law to know what would happen if exclusivity was denied, management did not file a reorg plan, but no one else did either. Would current management just stay in place, or is there some point where, if exclusivity is removed yet no reorganization plan is filed, conversion to Chapter 7 occurs automatically?
Chapter 11 definitely needs an overhaul - time limits, at the minimum, which would pressure major creditors to take a more active role, as GE and Deutsche Bank had to during the Air Canada case.
Leelaw From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 13, posted (10 years 1 month 2 weeks 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 12746 times:
To this point in time the Creditors' Committee hasn't been willing to pull the plug on an "exclusive reorganization plan." However, there will be a very contentious hearing on its motion to extend if UA hasn't garnered the support of its creditors for this extension in advance.
Ifly2eat From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 8 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (10 years 1 month 2 weeks 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 12715 times:
Amen to that. UAL has warped the US bankruptcy code from day one. They have added to the surplus capacity that the industry is suffering from, all the while under cutting fares of airlines who are trying to make a profit. At the very least give USAirways credit- they formulated a plan and tried to make it work. UAL does not even have a plan! Mark my words ATA and USAirways will exit bankruptcy before UAL does and UAL has been in it for almost 2 1/2 years.
TWA902fly From United States of America, joined Dec 1999, 3150 posts, RR: 4
Reply 15, posted (10 years 1 month 2 weeks 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 12663 times:
personally i love United, and i feel like no one can match their route system... think about it, as an airline that is supposed to represent the United States of America, they do a very good job. Hubs at the national capitol (IAD), the transportation hub of the country (ORD), the economic center of the mountain states (DEN), and the two largest cities on the west coast (SFO,LAX)... no other airline has matched that... i think they are a fundamental part of the american transportation system. If i consider one carrier THE american flag carrier, it would be United.
life wasn't worth the balance, or the crumpled paper it was written on
WesternA318 From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 5741 posts, RR: 23
Reply 17, posted (10 years 1 month 2 weeks 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 12618 times:
Excellent observation TWA902, I never thought of it that way, and I always thought CO was great when they had EWR ,IAH, DEN and LAX as the major hubs. Do anyone else in here care to know that UA once had Cheyenne, Wyoming as a major connecting city way back in the 30s and 40s?
Avek00 From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 4453 posts, RR: 20
Reply 19, posted (10 years 1 month 2 weeks 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 12539 times:
Quoting TWA902fly (Reply 16): If i consider one carrier THE american flag carrier, it would be United.
Thankfully, we don't have official flag-carriers here in the USA, so every airline has to justify its continued existence based on business fundamentals and not on feelings of prestige or nostalgia. Despite all of the BS and hoopla, the cold truth is that even with the protections and relief afforded under USA bankruptcy law, United has failed to develop and implement a business plan that makes money.
Bmacleod From Canada, joined Aug 2001, 2518 posts, RR: 0
Reply 20, posted (10 years 1 month 2 weeks 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 12487 times:
I thought DL was doing worse, they did lose more than UA last year; $2Billion wasn't it? In any case consolidation in the US airline industry is inevitable - one or 2 airlines will have to merge or shut down in order for the industry to regain profitability.
The engine is the heart of an airplane, but the pilot is its soul.
Midway2AirTran From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 864 posts, RR: 2
Reply 21, posted (10 years 1 month 2 weeks 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 12478 times:
Quoting Jayspilot (Thread starter): The way that company is run is soo messed up and how little most of there employees care about anything makes me not feel sorry for them.. There is too much capacity in the industry and i think cleaning out this old dieing beast will do just fine.
While I am an avid advocate of LCC's, do you have any proof outside of your opinion to support this?
*The DOT performance stats. show that United is doing fairly well compared to other Legacy counterparts in Customer service.
*Capacity at the moment may be a little at the high end, but passenger traffic is expected to nearly double over the next ten years, according to the US DOT. UAL's portion is in better position to exist to meet these future demands compared to other route networks.
I do believe that management at UAL needs to be streamlined and probably replaced in many areas to assist with efforts to achieve a rock-solid and innovative reorganizational effort that involves the cooperation of all levels. I do not agree with the current malicious exploiting of the bankruptcy process going on.
Avek00 From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 4453 posts, RR: 20
Reply 22, posted (10 years 1 month 2 weeks 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 12429 times:
Generally speaking, bankruptcy judges liberally grant exclusivity motions, based on the premise that debtors-in-possession are in the best position and have the most incentive to develop a plan that maximizes creditor returns and keeps the enterprise a going concern.
UAMAYBACH1239 From United States of America, joined Apr 2004, 221 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (10 years 1 month 2 weeks 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 12424 times:
Your just as bad as US Air bashers, remember when airlines shut down, if they are an international carrier, you will slowly begin to see those plane gravitate back to the US. Creditors and Leasing companies have that right on where the want to position they're a/c. Look on a.net at any major city in the world or within th USA, UA has a presence now more than ever. Its only fair to express your feelings for United, remember that threads are saved and that
we can pull them up at any time . Just for a laugh at idotic threads.