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Boeing To Build New Super Jet To Challenge A380  
User currently offlineBtblue From United Kingdom, joined Mar 2004, 578 posts, RR: 4
Posted (9 years 5 months 3 weeks 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 14988 times:

Times, April 10th.

BOEING is to strike back at Airbus with the launch in a few months of a new version of the venerable Boeing 747 called the 747 Advanced. British Airways may become one of the first customers.
Revelations of Boeing’s plans will intensify its commercial rivalry with Airbus, which is due to stage the first flight of its new $13.5 billion (£7.2 billion) A380 within weeks. It will supersede the 747 as the largest passenger airliner.

The Boeing move will also add fuel to the trade battle between Europe and America over subsidies to aircraft makers. A breakdown in talks last week between Peter Mandelson, the European trade commissioner, and Robert Zoellick, his US counterpart, means the issue may now have to be resolved by lengthy litigation through the World Trade Organisation.

Boeing has flirted with new versions of the 747 for more than a decade, but to date has failed to win interest from airlines, leaving the way clear for Airbus to develop the A380.

The advent of the A380 has killed off sales of 747 passenger aircraft, although Boeing is still working through a small backlog of orders and continues to sell 747 freighters. If Boeing fails to back the new plans, 747 production could end next year.

Senior sources at British Airways said the airline had held talks with Boeing about the new aircraft. Japan Airlines and Cathay Pacific, which like BA have not ordered the A380, have also been in negotiations over the 747 Advanced.

The aircraft would use new engines from Rolls-Royce and General Electric that were developed for another new Boeing product, the mid-sized 787.

The 747 Advanced would have greater range, modified wings and carry 30 more passengers — 450 rather than 420 — than the existing 747. The rival A380 will carry about 550.

The BA source indicated an announcement could be made at the Paris Air Show, the biennial showcase of the world’s aerospace industry that starts on June 13.

An announcement in Paris would be doubly galling for Airbus, as the event was intended to be a showcase for the A380, which was unveiled to the public in January by Tony Blair, France’s Jacques Chirac, Germany’s Gerhard Schröder and Spain’s José Luis Rodríguez Zapatero. Airbus executives told journalists that the A380 — which had been expected to fly at the Paris show — would probably be only on static display.

The A380 has yet to make its first flight — originally this was forecast for the end of April.

Boeing declined to comment, but a senior company source confirmed that it was “almost certain” to launch the 747 Advanced within “the next few months”. There was no current plan to make the announcement at the Paris Air Show.

“We see the aircraft as filling a gap between the 777 (Boeing’s next-smallest aircraft that carries up to 380 people) and the A380. There are airlines that would love a more efficient aircraft, but cannot justify all the seats of the A380, or the price,” the source said.

If Boeing decides not to go ahead with the 747 Advanced, it will probably mean the end of an aircraft that has dominated long-haul aviation for more than 30 years. With- out approval for the 747 Advanced, production of the aircraft would probably end at Boeing’s Seattle commercial aircraft plants some time next year.

Boeing started an in-depth review of its plans for the future of the 747 at the start of this year. An insider said the company had concluded that it could not leave Airbus to exploit a large part of the commercial aviation market unchallenged


146/2/3 737/2/3/4/5/7/8/9 A320 1/2/18/19/21 DC9/40/50 DC10/30 A300/6 A330/2/3 A340/3/6 A380 757/2/3 747/4 767/3/4 787 77
43 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineTACAA320 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 1, posted (9 years 5 months 3 weeks 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 14950 times:

That sounds great. I loved the 747!

User currently offlineAC787 From Canada, joined Mar 2005, 337 posts, RR: 1
Reply 2, posted (9 years 5 months 3 weeks 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 14942 times:

There's another thread exactly like this that was posted today... "Boeing Launching A Rival For The A380"

AC787


User currently offlineDfwRevolution From United States of America, joined Jan 2010, 978 posts, RR: 51
Reply 3, posted (9 years 5 months 3 weeks 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 14883 times:

Quoting AC787 (Reply 2):
"Boeing Launching A Rival For The A380"

Except.... it isn't

The 747-Adv compete only nominaly. The -Adv might pose an alternative to the much larger A388, but it is not A388, plain and simple. This paragraph summerizes it perfectly:

“We see the aircraft as filling a gap between the 777 (Boeing’s next-smallest aircraft that carries up to 380 people) and the A380. There are airlines that would love a more efficient aircraft, but cannot justify all the seats of the A380, or the price,” the source said.

It doesn't rival the A388 any more than the CRJ-200 rivals the A320, the capacity gap is literally that large. It does; however, offer an alternative large airplane, so maybe Boeing can exploit that niche (for whatever it's worth)


User currently offlineBehramjee From Canada, joined Aug 2003, 4794 posts, RR: 43
Reply 4, posted (9 years 5 months 3 weeks 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 14863 times:

I find it utterly senseless for Boeing to build the B 747 ADV with only 450 seats in a standard 3 class layout...it should be at least for 480-500 pax maximum. Even though the A 380 can seat 550 pax in a 3 class layout, many airlines are comprising that for less seats (EK 533-EY 490-QR 510-QF 530-SQ 530) in a 3 class layout and using the extra space of the double decker for extra amenities such as a lounge room with bar-mini casino-on board store-pool etc.

One must remember that when Boeing says 450 seats in 3 classes, their configuration is the standard one of the 1980s which was 62-42-32 seat pitch in F-J and Y classes respectively...therefore taking this consideration, BA will at the most fit in 400-410 pax in their 4 classes of service on this B 744 ADV as their F class is 79, J 60, Y+ 38 and WT 32!!!

VS can easily take away a sizeable chunk of BAs high yield traffic with the on board attractions they plan on installing in their A 380s when they arrive as the aircraft is large enough to accomodate all of Branson's creative ideas.


User currently offlineAirbusCanada From Canada, joined Nov 2004, 330 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (9 years 5 months 3 weeks 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 14847 times:

Since when the 747 adv is a super jet?

User currently offlineDfwRevolution From United States of America, joined Jan 2010, 978 posts, RR: 51
Reply 6, posted (9 years 5 months 3 weeks 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 14797 times:

Quoting Behramjee (Reply 4):
I find it utterly senseless for Boeing to build the B 747 ADV with only 450 seats in a standard 3 class layout...it should be at least for 480-500 pax maximum.

They tried a 747 stretch that large. No one wanted it

Quoting Behramjee (Reply 4):
therefore taking this consideration, BA will at the most fit in 400-410 pax in their 4 classes of service on this B 744 ADV as their F class is 79, J 60, Y+ 38 and WT 32!!!

Still more than their current 744. The specific point of the 747-Adv is to fill a gap between the 773ER and the A388, growing the -Adv any larger defeats that point. Same logic as to why Embraer doesn't stretch the hell out of the E195: there's a damn good product to go against, and they obviously think they can exploit a market below the A388. More importantly, it makes an A387 nearly impossible (if it already isn't)

Quoting Behramjee (Reply 4):
VS can easily take away a sizeable chunk of BAs high yield traffic with the on board attractions they plan on installing in their A 380s

Take a look at some of the features Boeing are marketing. Not so uncreative one might say.

One feature departs from the overhead crew-rest module and allows F passengers their own private cabin. Not only does this add comfort, it allows those massive, heavy lie-flat beds to be replaced by traditional F seats. Since you would be free to retire to your personal cabin, more seats can be installed without compromise.


User currently offlineMariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25331 posts, RR: 85
Reply 7, posted (9 years 5 months 3 weeks 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 14686 times:
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Boeing has said there is not sufficient market for two super jumbos.

They have said that there is not sufficient market for one super-jumbo, which is why (supposedly) they went with the 7E7.

So what's this all about - sticking it to Airbus?

Because that's what it sounds like.

If there is not sufficient market, why build it?

cheers

mariner



aeternum nauta
User currently offlineLemurs From United States of America, joined Mar 2005, 1439 posts, RR: 4
Reply 8, posted (9 years 5 months 3 weeks 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 14554 times:

Quoting Mariner (Reply 7):
So what's this all about - sticking it to Airbus?

Because that's what it sounds like.

If there is not sufficient market, why build it?

Let's answer this question by reading and quoting the post that started this thread. (DfwRevolution pointed it out as well)

Quoting Btblue (Thread starter):
“We see the aircraft as filling a gap between the 777 (Boeing’s next-smallest aircraft that carries up to 380 people) and the A380. There are airlines that would love a more efficient aircraft, but cannot justify all the seats of the A380, or the price,” the source said.

In other words, the 747Adv isn't another super-jumbo. 30 more seats isn't very super.



There are 10 kinds of people in the world; those who understand binary, and those that don't.
User currently offlineMariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25331 posts, RR: 85
Reply 9, posted (9 years 5 months 3 weeks 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 14530 times:
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Lemurs:

Hang on - the thread title is:

"Boeing to Build New Super Jet to Challenge the A380."

You're saying that is not so?

cheers

mariner



aeternum nauta
User currently offlineAirAmericaC46 From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 590 posts, RR: 1
Reply 10, posted (9 years 5 months 3 weeks 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 14512 times:

I'll say amen to the 747. It is far more symmetrical and photogenic than the A380!!

User currently offlineLemurs From United States of America, joined Mar 2005, 1439 posts, RR: 4
Reply 11, posted (9 years 5 months 3 weeks 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 14499 times:

Quoting Mariner (Reply 9):
"Boeing to Build New Super Jet to Challenge the A380."

You're saying that is not so?

That's exactly what I am saying. I know what you mean, but really; headlines are written by journalists whose job it is to sell newspapers. Do you really think they understand (or more importantly, care) about the realities of the business of building and selling airliners? Of course not.

The second Boeing said it would offer a newer, slightly larger 747, the press was almost certain to treat it as a A380 competitor. In fact, I'm certain Boeing knew that and is quite happy with it. That doesn't change the reality of the airplane though. A and B, as well as the airlines they are courting, will all realize that these planes are offering a different kind of service and sweet spot.

An airline that isn't certain they can grow certain routes to accommodate the A380 profitably, but want more than a 773/346 will naturally settle on the 747Adv, assuming Boeing makes it attractive in the right fashion.



There are 10 kinds of people in the world; those who understand binary, and those that don't.
User currently offlineAirFrnt From United States of America, joined Jul 2004, 2826 posts, RR: 42
Reply 12, posted (9 years 5 months 3 weeks 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 14464 times:

Quoting Behramjee (Reply 4):
I find it utterly senseless for Boeing to build the B 747 ADV with only 450 seats in a standard 3 class layout...it should be at least for 480-500 pax maximum.

Because after all, The A380 is such a stunning success. I mean, it even beat the 747s record of paying for itself twice over before the first plane took off!

(That's sarcasm for all you Americans).

One way or another, the market does not exist right now for two jumbos (I would argue that even one is pushing it). Boeing was smart enough to stay away from this concept in the mid to late 90s. I hope they will stick with that decision now.

On the other hand, If the A380 does become more popular, I think it's a fair bet that Boeing will have a much more robus 747ADV market then even Airbus's market for the A380. Carriers will want to move up, but the A380 is such a huge investment, the 747 will look very nice in comparison.


User currently offlineBehramjee From Canada, joined Aug 2003, 4794 posts, RR: 43
Reply 13, posted (9 years 5 months 3 weeks 5 days 6 hours ago) and read 14353 times:

Quoting DfwRevolution (Reply 6):
They tried a 747 stretch that large. No one wanted it

Nobody wanted the stretch because it was based on current B 744 technical features and B 777 interiors...with BOEING now saying that the B 747ADV will see engine and technical benefits of the B 787 series, the fuel burn-range-more modern technology etc all make the B 747 ADV in this day and age a better option for the airlines who initially rejected the B 747 Stretch.

As for filling the gap between the B 773ER (365 seats in 3 classes) and A 380 (550 seats), the median is 455 seats and Boeing's aim is for a 3 class 450 seat layout but that too in Boeing's configuration. What Boeing should aim for is to build a plane that can accomodate 440-450 pax in BAs 4 class layout with the current seat dimensions-sizes-weight etc in order to effectively bridge the gap between the B 773ER and the B 744...otherwise the B 747ADV like Lemurs said will only have 30 more seats than the current BA B 744s have so whats the point of buying new aircraft just for 30 seats???!!!


User currently onlineFriendlySkies From United States of America, joined Aug 2004, 4107 posts, RR: 5
Reply 14, posted (9 years 5 months 3 weeks 5 days 6 hours ago) and read 14340 times:

So is Boeing actually going forward with the 747Adv, or is this the same old story we've been hearing for the past 3 or 4 months?

User currently offlineLehpron From United States of America, joined Jul 2001, 7028 posts, RR: 21
Reply 15, posted (9 years 5 months 3 weeks 5 days 6 hours ago) and read 14311 times:

Quoting DfwRevolution (Reply 6):
They tried a 747 stretch that large. No one wanted it

1) I do not think Boeing was sreious back then, they had not looked into what could be minimum airport modifications, the 746X was more like nearly 90 meters long.

2) The VLA market was way too early back then, of course nobody wanted it. With the rise of more frequent flight there was no justification for a VLA, in certain markets even now.

Thesedays on certian routes now and those forecasted by airlines, more people continue to fly and there is limited space available for frequent flights. For the time being A380 will shine for those carriers that purchase, as one fellow A.net member named her as, the Albatros (I like it). What happened in the 90's will happen again, people will want frequency over economy and it will not be from something like 787.

IMO, Boeing should cancel all 747 derivatives and concentrate all efforts on ANYTHING that can come out of experience with 787. I also think they should restart Sonic Cruiser within another 10 years, its market is there but has yet to mature, i.e. Boeing does not yet justify the R&D costs. IMO, SC would have completely killed A380.



The meaning of life is curiosity; we were put on this planet to explore opportunities.
User currently offlineLightsaber From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 13161 posts, RR: 100
Reply 16, posted (9 years 5 months 3 weeks 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 14174 times:
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Quoting Mariner (Reply 7):
If there is not sufficient market, why build it?

It looks like there is just enough market to justify it. Also, I firmly believe that the 747adv will mostly sell as a freighter. Since the A380 lacks a nose (or tail) door, they left open a large chunk of the freighter market.

Quoting Lehpron (Reply 15):
Boeing should cancel all 747 derivatives and concentrate all efforts on ANYTHING that can come out of experience with 787.

If it wasn't for the freighter, I would agree. However, there is money to be made off of those cargo doors...  Smile And this market would require a 777-400, with "787" technology. The 787 is a little small to compete in the market this thread has been discussing.

Quoting FriendlySkies (Reply 14):
So is Boeing actually going forward with the 747Adv

I've been disappointed with a 747NG for too long... I'll believe it when I see the official press release with launch customers.

Quoting Behramjee (Reply 13):
What Boeing should aim for is to build a plane that can accomodate 440-450 pax in BAs 4 class layout

While I agree from the enthusiast viewpoint, Boeing should only go for the upgrade with a profitable business case. I'd like to see a larger plane like others, but I also know that the cheapest stretch keeps the 950,000 lbm MTOW. (Same gear, brakes, etc.) In my humble opinion, the best business case (least capital expenditure with good ROI) is a minimal cost upgrade with the 787 engines (with bleed), wing tip treatments, and as much stretch as they can get and keep an 8,000nm+ range with improved cargo load. Recall, the stretch as well as the computer room changes will give them more cargo volume; Boeing just needs to do the math to get to an "optimal" cargo weight vs. pax number increase.

Lightsaber



Societies that achieve a critical mass of ideas achieve self sustaining growth; others stagnate.
User currently offlineDeltaWings From Switzerland, joined Aug 2004, 1294 posts, RR: 17
Reply 17, posted (9 years 5 months 3 weeks 5 days 3 hours ago) and read 14072 times:

While the 744 can take 660 pax in holiday configuration and the A388 can take 835, I think the 747Adv should be able to take a good 750 pax. Im shure with 750, BA would be able to put 450 pax in a 4.class config. That would be a good increas in pax, when you compare it to their currenr 744s.

Since the 747Adv will be a streched 744 (plus economical improvements of course), will it also have a streched upper deck with 2 doors on each side?


~DeltaWings



Homer: Marge, it takes two to lie. One to lie and one to listen.
User currently offlinePlaneSmart From New Zealand, joined Dec 2004, 948 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (9 years 5 months 3 weeks 5 days 3 hours ago) and read 14036 times:

Lightsaber

'In my humble opinion, the best business case (least capital expenditure with good ROI) is a minimal cost upgrade with the 787 engines (with bleed), wing tip treatments, and as much stretch as they can get and keep an 8,000nm+ range with improved cargo load. Recall, the stretch as well as the computer room changes will give them more cargo volume; Boeing just needs to do the math to get to an "optimal" cargo weight vs. pax number increase.'

Minus the stretch, is Option 1, the preference of most 744 freight operators. Catch 22 for B is that the proposed changes could be retrofitted to the existing fleet.

Option 2 includes the stretch, plus cockpit upgrade, the preference of a few new-buy 744 passenger operators. Catch 22 here, is that if the 787 economics are as compelling as claimed, this is an interim model, with a short life, with few features / developments that would carryover to Option 3.

Option 3 is a replacement 747 utilising 787 technology and just about new everything.

Every airline that currently operates 744's has held talks with B regarding the 747ADV, and most i'm sure have said keep us informed of developments.

B is a conservative company. The 787 and 737 replacement projects are far more important than chasing, what is projected to be a small market through to 2023 (if you deduct current A38 sales) based on B's own projections. However, when two giants and egos come into play, commonsense may not necessarily prevail.


User currently offlineAa777jr From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 19, posted (9 years 5 months 3 weeks 5 days 3 hours ago) and read 14019 times:

Wow, this is awesome. I am glad to see the life of the 747 be extended that much more. Sounds like they've already got serious potential with rumored customers BA, CX, JL, SQ, and 5X. Just good old competition between two a/c companies.

Regards.


User currently offlineZKSUJ From New Zealand, joined May 2004, 7107 posts, RR: 12
Reply 20, posted (9 years 5 months 3 weeks 5 days 2 hours ago) and read 13938 times:

Wooohoooo, love the 747, would be great to see it live on. Long shot but wish that NZ go for the 744 advanced if it comes out.

User currently offlineAvObserver From United States of America, joined Apr 2002, 2472 posts, RR: 9
Reply 21, posted (9 years 5 months 3 weeks 5 days 1 hour ago) and read 13493 times:

"There's another thread exactly like this that was posted today... "Boeing Launching A Rival For The A380"

Ditto my comments from that thread; the press again blew it all out of proportion when rehashing the same old news we've been hearing for months. A new 747 variant would be nice but no true rival to the likes of the A388. But in the case of the proposed A380-700 shrink; perhaps it would be.


User currently offlineCM767 From Panama, joined Dec 2004, 655 posts, RR: 1
Reply 22, posted (9 years 5 months 3 weeks 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 12990 times:

Quoting Behramjee (Reply 13):
whats the point of buying new aircraft just for 30 seats???!!!

In my opinion trying to match the A380 economics will be the most important feature of the 747 Advanced, passenger count will be second and probably helps achieve the first.



But The Best Thing God Has Created Is A New Day
User currently offlineViscount630 From United Kingdom, joined Mar 2005, 238 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (9 years 5 months 3 weeks 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 12048 times:
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A (Yet another?) "modified" 747 is NOT a "New Super Jet". The "modifications" don't even seem that drastic. A rework on an increasingly old (over FORTY years old!) design. Nothing more.

You can only dig out the old blueprints and "tweak" them again a finite number of times. The 747 has run its natural course. Let it go. Boeing should concentrate on new developments of the 777 & 787 for it's long range/high capacity portfolio.



RIP Dan-Air. Where the Secret was SERVICE.
User currently offlineZvezda From Lithuania, joined Aug 2004, 10511 posts, RR: 64
Reply 24, posted (9 years 5 months 3 weeks 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 11945 times:

Quoting DeltaWings (Reply 17):
Since the 747Adv will be a streched 744 (plus economical improvements of course), will it also have a streched upper deck with 2 doors on each side?

The upper deck of the passenger version will be stretched 3.5 meters. There will be one door on each side of the upper deck, just as with the B747-400. The freighter will not have a stretched upper deck and will not have any upper deck doors.


25 RedFlyer : I just read through this entire string and one thing no one has mentioned is the fact that current operators of the 744 are going to have to start con
26 Post contains images UAMAYBACH1239 : Boeings announcement is a confirmation of what a lot of us wondered . One of the biggest questions was why no order commitment to AB by BA. I dont thi
27 A380900 : There will never be a 747 adv. It is another stupid communication ploy by Boeing to withstand the image blow of the first flight of the A380. These gu
28 A380900 : It is the same old story dude (read the article, it is quite explicit, no decision has been taken). The story is repackaged for the A380 first flight
29 RJ111 : One of the biggest questions was why no order commitment to AB by BA. BA have no need to order the A380/744adv, they have little avaliable money and t
30 PVD757 : A380900- easy with the venom. You're plane hasn't taken off yet. Let's wait and see who is really serious about plane development in the next 6 months
31 Zvezda : What is your source? Or do you believe that just because you want to believe that? It seems to me there is a strong business case for Boeing to build
32 Thrust : If the A380 is successful, Boeing may very well likely challenge the A380 with a new 747 version. Unlike the 747X projects, this 747 would not be as e
33 Post contains images Lockheed1011 : Well said THRUST! 2005 is Boieng's year. Boeing will take over the Wide Body market again this year. Airbus is doing very well with the A319 & A320. A
34 NorCal : I'm tired of your idiotic posts, if you have a logical reason why the 747adv won't be built, then please share. The only purpose your posts serve is
35 Post contains images Lehpron : If 747A matched A380 in every aspect yet A380 is still able to acrry much more while 747A has reahed her limit, tell me who will come out on top when
36 N754PR : Boeing will get their act together one of these days and confirm a updated 747.....
37 Post contains images MIAMIx707 : You just gotta love the a.net forums sometimes.. Dude here is a tip for next time: Think before you post. However those geeky comments are not surpri
38 YYZ4RADD : there is a saying.... If you can't beat em, join em.....somebody at Boeing is thinking this way...LOL The 747Adv will do fine...and fill a niche marke
39 Post contains images Propulsion : I don't think the debate as to whether the 747Adv is built has much to do with how wonderful people think some aircraft are over others. The point is
40 NorCal : Yes they definitely did, but they still can't let Airbus have the market entirely to themselves especially when a economic competitor can be develope
41 Vunz : Why don't they simply call it the 747-500?
42 Ken777 : Right now Airbus owns the 380 size slot and Boeing owns the 747 size slot. For either company to capture the other's market they would have to start w
43 RIX : - don't be that hurt by what journalists say. - they still are modifications, without quotes. - worked pretty well for 737.
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