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Why Does WN Not Operate International Flights?  
User currently offlineGilesdavies From United Kingdom, joined Dec 2003, 3052 posts, RR: 2
Posted (9 years 8 months 2 weeks 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 3958 times:

Why does SouthWest not operate international flights, and come to think about it airlines also other low cost carriers like Air Tran and Spirit.

Isn't the international routes to like the Caribbean and Mexico where the money is to made. This is where US Airways and other carriers have been focussing on and say the yields are far higher.

LCC in Canada like Jetsgo, WestJet and CanJet "Dip there toes into the US", by flying to major cities like Chicago, NYC, Boston, LA, and San Francisco.

Both airlines current aircraft are well within the capability of flying to these destinations or is this something we will see later WN focussing on.

Also on a side note will we ever see WN installing Satalite TV on board their 737's like the majority on LCC are doing these days?

15 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlineN1120A From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 26812 posts, RR: 75
Reply 1, posted (9 years 8 months 2 weeks 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 3953 times:

Quoting Gilesdavies (Thread starter):
Why does SouthWest not operate international flights, and come to think about it airlines also other low cost carriers like Air Tran and Spirit.

Southwest (one word, one capital letter) does not run international flights as they add various hassles to their system without much gain. If markets in the US had dried up, WN would potentially seek out other places to make money, but as it is they have not yet touched all of the markets that can sustain service (CLT, MSP, MEM, ATL all come to mind). BTW, FL does fly international flights to Grand Bahama while NK goes to Nassau, Cancun and SDQ

Quoting Gilesdavies (Thread starter):
Isn't the international routes to like the Caribbean and Mexico where the money is to made. This is where US Airways and other carriers have been focussing on and say the yields are far higher.

WN does not really focus on yields, they focus on the ability to make a certain profit (2 PAX tickets worth per flight) and then have the rest be gravy. Remember, US Airways is on the brink of collapse and WN is the most successful airline in the world.

Quoting Gilesdavies (Thread starter):
LCC in Canada like Jetsgo, WestJet and CanJet "Dip there toes into the US", by flying to major cities like Chicago, NYC, Boston, LA, and San Francisco.

You have to remember that Canada is a much, much smaller market for domestic flights than the US. I mean, you are talking something like ten times the population in the states as in Canada, so you have that many more people flying. Hence, Canadian carriers exhaust their markets rather quickly and have to do trans-border and other international flights while a US carrier need not

Quoting Gilesdavies (Thread starter):
Also on a side note will we ever see WN installing Satalite TV on board their 737's like the majority on LCC are doing these days?

Well, I would not say the majority of LCC's are going it, as only B6 and F9 have done it in the US and WS in Canada, but it is popular with travelers. Still, WN does not like charging people for things (what service they have is free, except for alcohol) and would not be able to make a case for that if they had Live TV, having to charge around $5 per passenger (B6 can offer it for free because they own Live TV and have a very good deal with DirecTV Airborne because they launched the product). Plus, it would add MX expense to the aircraft, which WN is loathe to do.



Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
User currently offlineAR1300 From Argentina, joined Feb 2005, 1740 posts, RR: 3
Reply 2, posted (9 years 8 months 2 weeks 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 3927 times:

Quoting N1120A (Reply 1):
(2 PAX tickets worth per flight)

I'm flying with them to MDW out of ISP in a couple of weeks, and I paid 115 dollars.That means that they will make only 330 dollars out of the whole flight?
Doesn't make a lot of sense to me....uh?

Mike



They don't call us Continental for nothing.
User currently offlineByrdluvs747 From United States of America, joined Jul 2004, 2465 posts, RR: 1
Reply 3, posted (9 years 8 months 2 weeks 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 3923 times:

Quoting Gilesdavies (Thread starter):
Also on a side note will we ever see WN installing Satalite TV on board their 737's like the majority on LCC are doing these days?

As far as IFE goes, read this thread and you'll see why not.

The Weight Of B6's IFE In Relation To Fuel Costs? (by Byrdluvs747 Apr 6 2005 in Civil Aviation)



The 747: The hands who designed it were guided by god.
User currently offlineN1120A From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 26812 posts, RR: 75
Reply 4, posted (9 years 8 months 2 weeks 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 3914 times:

Quoting AR1300 (Reply 2):
I'm flying with them to MDW out of ISP in a couple of weeks, and I paid 115 dollars.That means that they will make only 330 dollars out of the whole flight?
Doesn't make a lot of sense to me....uh?

Actually, they make more than that. First, if that is a round-trip, then you bought one of their cheapest fares, and those are not the ones they count as making money on that flight. Also, they make money on cargo revenue (which is not calculated until after passenger revenue and is pure profit by WN's standards). Additionally, if WN makes $330 on every flight they fly per day, at 2800 flights per day, that is $924,000 per day WN is making, before cargo revenue (which adds over $100,000,000 per year to their profits).



Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
User currently offlineAR1300 From Argentina, joined Feb 2005, 1740 posts, RR: 3
Reply 5, posted (9 years 8 months 2 weeks 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 3903 times:

Quoting N1120A (Reply 4):
if that is a round-trip, then you bought one of their cheapest fares

Yes, it is a round trip.''Internet fare''

Quoting N1120A (Reply 4):
cargo revenue

What is that?regular cargo?

Quoting N1120A (Reply 4):
if WN makes $330 on every flight they fly per day, at 2800 flights per day, that is $924,000 per day WN is making

Times 365...Heck you are right!!

Mike.



They don't call us Continental for nothing.
User currently offlineN1120A From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 26812 posts, RR: 75
Reply 6, posted (9 years 8 months 2 weeks 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 3892 times:

Quoting AR1300 (Reply 5):
What is that?regular cargo?

Since they fly all 737s, the cargo is mostly packages and mail

Quoting AR1300 (Reply 5):
Quoting N1120A (Reply 4):
if WN makes $330 on every flight they fly per day, at 2800 flights per day, that is $924,000 per day WN is making

Times 365...Heck you are right!!

Yep, and that is why they make money. Unlike legacy carriers and their obsession with yield, WN just tries to make a little on each flight and not hit a home run (score a game winning goal might be better terminology since you are from Argentina) and take a loss on something else.



Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
User currently offlineSrbmod From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 7, posted (9 years 8 months 2 weeks 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 3803 times:

Southwest prefers to do quickturns of their a/c in order to get the maximum amount of usage out them, as an a/c doesn't make any money parked at the gate. When you throw customs clearances into the mix, a 30 minute turn is virtually impossible. Plus you then also have to throw the foreign currencies into the mix, as whatever employees you have based at those int'l cities have to be paid in the local currency, and many times the various fees have to be paid in the local currency, so you then have the costs of currency exchange. Plus many int'l markets are seasonal, so some parts of the year you'll have to cut fares to very cheap prices just to fill the seats.

User currently offlineElagabal From United Kingdom, joined Mar 2005, 201 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (9 years 8 months 2 weeks 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 3768 times:

Good points, Srbmod. Also, just throw in the sheer distance factor: most islands are a long way from most airports in the US - even ATL to SJU, hardly far into the Caribbean, is a substantial 2 1/2+ hours - and this would pose problems in the context of WN's point-to-point, largely short-distance network. It's harder to fit many flights into the best times of the day, when a huge chunk of it is taken up in a single sector.

User currently offlineN1120A From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 26812 posts, RR: 75
Reply 9, posted (9 years 8 months 2 weeks 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 3763 times:

Quoting Elagabal (Reply 8):
Also, just throw in the sheer distance factor: most islands are a long way from most airports in the US - even ATL to SJU, hardly far into the Caribbean, is a substantial 2 1/2+ hours - and this would pose problems in the context of WN's point-to-point, largely short-distance network.

Distance is absolutely not an issue for WN. They fly tons of flights over 2.5 hours and that has been their prefered means of expansion lately.



Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
User currently offlineExFATboy From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 2974 posts, RR: 9
Reply 10, posted (9 years 8 months 2 weeks 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 3654 times:

Quoting Gilesdavies (Thread starter):
Also on a side note will we ever see WN installing Satalite TV on board their 737's like the majority on LCC are doing these days?

Don't see it happening anytime soon, for the MX and weight reasons cited, and because it's not necessary for their business plan. Other LCCs offer it, in part, to differentiate themselves from both the network carriers and Southwest, in the same way Target offers better customer service to differentiate itself from Wal-Mart (which, in turn, justfies a slighly higher price on some items.)

(The only flaw in this analogy being that I don't hate Southwest - flown them happily before, would fly them again, if not for the fact that Islip is a hell of a long way from my little Manhattan apartment - while I DO hate Wal-Mart. HATE! Hate with the firey passion of a thousands suns! A loathing that rivals that of Sir Winston Churchill and Lady Astor! [pant, pant...I'll stop here before I launch into a diatribe about being able to get my own damn cart thankyouverymuchyoublue-vestednosyoldfart...  Smile ])


User currently offlineSATX From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 2840 posts, RR: 7
Reply 11, posted (9 years 8 months 2 weeks 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 3608 times:

Why WN doesn’t offer intl. service is pretty easy to figure out if you read this board often.

However, why WN has a seemingly arbitrary connection limit is the real question IMO. SAT to OMA? No can do. However, they will sell you two separate tickets that you can use for the same purpose if you wish! Just doesn’t make a whole lot of sense to me. Maybe I’m simply in the dark regarding WN’s reasoning, or perhaps this is some holdover from the old days?



Open Season on Consumer Protections is Just Around the Corner...
User currently offlineStevenUhl777 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 12, posted (9 years 8 months 2 weeks 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 3554 times:

Folks, if it ain't broken, don't fix it. I'm referring to WN's master business plan, of course. It's profitable. Not perfect, but close enough, and coming from a UA family, I have to give credit where credit is due, and WN deserves it.

Plus, from a UA perspective, I'm hoping like hell that WN stays domestic! Last thing we need now is them competing against us in the Caribbean, Canada, etc. I don't expect them to buy 777's or A330s and fly across the pond anytime soon. Only LCC I could see trying that would be B6, but even then, that's years away, it all.


User currently offlineB4real From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 2661 posts, RR: 5
Reply 13, posted (9 years 8 months 2 weeks 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 3538 times:

I agree with most of what is above, but want to offer my €.02:

WN has built their successful model on quick ground turn times. Int'l flights would not necessarily fit that time requirement model for customs, aircraft inspection, crew changes, etc.



B4REAL, spelled like it sounds
User currently offlineAntonovman From United Kingdom, joined Mar 2001, 724 posts, RR: 1
Reply 14, posted (9 years 8 months 2 weeks 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 3520 times:

"WN has built their successful model on quick ground turn times. Int'l flights would not necessarily fit that time requirement model for customs, aircraft inspection, crew changes, etc"
In europe all the LCC do international flights, and do 25 - 30 minute turnarounds
Whats the differance ?


User currently offlineSATX From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 2840 posts, RR: 7
Reply 15, posted (9 years 8 months 2 weeks 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 3485 times:

Quoting Antonovman (Reply 14):
In europe all the LCC do international flights, and do 25 - 30 minute turnarounds
Whats the differance ?

Here’s my take: First of all, NAFTA is not quite the same thing as the EU.  Big grin Much of the recent success of European LCC's has come from changes in how integrated Europe has become. We have not seen the same level of integration between countries in the Americas as of yet.

Also, European LCC’s don't have such a long list of domestic markets to pick from and thus are inclined to offer international service if they are to grow beyond a few planes. Southwest still has plenty of ‘lower hanging fruit to pick’ before they need to explore the international destinations. Regardless of where they pick outside of the US, it’s likely to provide a lower profit margin initially compared to domestic routes they still have yet to capitalize on.

In a nutshell, WN apparently can get all the traffic they can handle just from their domestic network.

I’ve flown on EZ before and read plenty about Ryanair. Southwest has so far been a much better experience IMO, so I’d prefer they not follow the European LCC model if they don’t have too. That being said, I’d still consider them for international travel if and when they do ever offer it.



Open Season on Consumer Protections is Just Around the Corner...
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