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Just How Long Can UA Continue In BK?  
User currently offlineIAHTowTeam From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Posted (9 years 3 months 2 weeks 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 2961 times:

Just finished reading the latest on UA...... now throwing out all their employees pensions and pushing bankruptcy back another 8mos.(fall)....this is getting rediculous!! Don't get me wrong...I do not wish for UA's 60,000 employees to lose their jobs but Tilton is just playing with fire. How long does he think it will take before his employees retaliate? How long can someone operate in the protection of BK court before their creditors get a hold of them? Even if UA does get out of BK and continue to operate....who will want to invest the rest of their career with them at no pension or investment in their future? Tilton is a jack@ss!!! I wish the UA and USair employees would stand up to their CEO's and let them know they aren't going to take this kind of treatment anymore....not only for themselves, but for the rest of the employees in this industry. I have respect for all the employees at UA and US. You guys have put up with more than I would have....good luck to all of you.....us!

9 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlineOrdpark From United States of America, joined Nov 2003, 574 posts, RR: 1
Reply 1, posted (9 years 3 months 2 weeks 6 days 10 hours ago) and read 2901 times:
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Well, as long as the BK judge doesn't object, there is no time limit...

Now I'm not defending Tilton...But the man has a thankless job...he was hired to bring the company through BK. That requires that you make a lot of mean and nasty decisions that the employees are not gonna like...How many people do you know that ENJOY having their pay and benefits cut? The way I look at it, Airline employees, including UA have been enjoying the good life for quite some time. Pay and benefit increases came along at pretty regular intervals. But the bubble burst after 9/11 (although in reality, it had started bursting before that).

Tilton was charged with making draconian cuts or letting the airline fail...the cuts were made and the airline is still here. He told everyone early on that was not gonna be pleasant and if your were not up to it, you should probably leave. Many did and most of those that have stayed want to see this through and rebuild the company. Every major airline is gonna have to reduce costs and like it or not United and USAIR are way ahead of the other carriers at accomplishing this.


User currently offlineEA CO AS From United States of America, joined Nov 2001, 13517 posts, RR: 62
Reply 2, posted (9 years 3 months 2 weeks 6 days 10 hours ago) and read 2889 times:
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From what I can tell, UA's biggest problem is that each time they get what seems to be a decent plan formulated, the nature of the business fundamentally changes.

They had high costs, so they lowered them.
Then they realized they had too much capacity, so they dumped some of it.
Then they realized their plan still called for defined benefit pensions, so they went after them.
Then they realized their plans were all predicated on fuel at $42/bbl, so they had to retool AGAIN.

I can't help but feel sorry for them - every time they solve what seems to be a huge problem, someone moves the bar on them.



"In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem - government IS the problem." - Ronald Reagan
User currently offlineJacobin777 From United States of America, joined Sep 2004, 14968 posts, RR: 60
Reply 3, posted (9 years 3 months 2 weeks 6 days 10 hours ago) and read 2862 times:

Tilton gets flamed quite a bit here on A.net, but he's kept UA afloat, and possibly out of BK (eventually). To top it all off, he doesn't even have to do this given his credentials. He could have gone to another job which would have paid him millions already and given him less stress.....if UA survives, I'll commend him for a job well done (and not to mention, a nice bonus)


"Up the Irons!"
User currently offlineStevenUhl777 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 4, posted (9 years 3 months 2 weeks 6 days 9 hours ago) and read 2840 times:

Glenn Tilton is worth every penny he is being paid, which mind you, is a LOT less than others at his level in the industry. He is worth more now than Tricky Dick Ferris EVER was in the '80's, as was Jim Goodwin. I feel the same way about CFO Jake Brace...amazing individual...UAL is extremely fortunate to have him in his current role during this period. Few a-netters will ever understand this...take the long view.

Senior management is NOT the problem at UAL right now...they are the SOLUTION...they are getting the job done, and UAL will emerge this fall as a result of it. Whoever ultimately provides the exit funding will bring in their management team at that point, and sadly, Tilton and Brace will mostly likely move on, as will Doug Hacker. Assuming a fall exit from Ch. 11, I don't believe Tilton will be working at the Elk Grove offices this time next year.

The problem at UAL right now is MIDDLE management...those who can't effectively manage at the station and operations level and who are responsible for the spotty, inconsistent service you see. It's one thing to have a great fleet and route network folks, but if you can't manage that valuable asset to the point where it maximizes profits, you a.) won't be running an efficient operation, and more importantly, b.) don't deserve to be in business at all. There are managers at WN who manage much better than some at UAL, that much is obvious.

Some time ago, ElkGrove came on here and specifically stated that while it does look bad to give certain members of management bonuses, he also said that those individuals receiving them would be with UA for a short time longer, and would then leave.

The more I think about it, as dedicated as I am to UAL, I should apply for a position in Elk Grove once I complete my MBA in a few years, and do what I can to ensure UAL survives long term. Those winters sure are a bitch back there, though... Wink


User currently offlineMasseyBrown From United States of America, joined Dec 2002, 5368 posts, RR: 7
Reply 5, posted (9 years 3 months 2 weeks 6 days 9 hours ago) and read 2834 times:

Ordpark said: Well, as long as the BK judge doesn't object, there is no time limit...

And the judge won't object unless the creditors do... And, since the creditors face a wipeout, they aren't going to object because any Tilton-engineered outcome would be better for them than liquidation.



I love long German words like 'Freundschaftsbezeigungen'.
User currently offlineUnitedTristar From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 6, posted (9 years 3 months 2 weeks 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 2762 times:

Quoting StevenUhl777 (Reply 4):
Glenn Tilton is worth every penny he is being paid, which mind you, is a LOT less than others at his level in the industry. He is worth more now than Tricky Dick Ferris EVER was in the '80's, as was Jim Goodwin. I feel the same way about CFO Jake Brace...amazing individual...UAL is extremely fortunate to have him in his current role during this period. Few a-netters will ever understand this...take the long view.

I couldn't agree more. However there is one part I must disagree with. I don't beleave that Jim Goodwin did ANYTHING to benefit this company. He wasted BILLIONS of this company's money...yes that's billion with a B. He blew hundreds of millions trying to acquire US. All projects at WHQ at the time were dropped and hundreds of man hours were spent with the integration plans. That's a hell of a lot of payroll. That's also a lot of lost time from other projects on a waste! Then there was avolar! What a cluster that was! He spent millions on nonrefundable deposits on business jets. He didn't bother bringing in the employees to say that was the plan so when the unions objected there was thousands of manhours wasted on that, and it never happened! From what I hear the money wasted on that project was originally earmarked for new freighters to replace the DC10's which were only suppose to be used to build up the new service. Then he started with this mess called United Loyalty Services. He took very profitable services associated with UA such as mileage plus and the associated Visa and made them under that umbrella. They have separate benifits, separate PR and separate HR. There is no reason that they have to have their own or be separate from UA. All these functions could be handled by Elk Grove. I find it kind of fishy that the CEO of ULS is the CFO at UAL during the set up and was the one who set it up then he went there. He actually makes more money then Glen! Its all justified in saying that its the only profitable division of UAL Corp. Well no kidding they are! Anyhow if it wasn't for wasteful decisions made by Goodwin I personally don't think UA would be in the situation it is in today.

-m

 airplane 


User currently offlinePlaneSmart From New Zealand, joined Dec 2004, 871 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (9 years 3 months 2 weeks 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 2710 times:

When restructuring of the airline industry occurs, given the quantum changes achieved, and providing staff goodwill and morale can be maintained, UA and there exec team is likely to be a key part of the new alliances / takeover / mergers (call them what you will).

User currently offlineCkfred From United States of America, joined Apr 2001, 5179 posts, RR: 1
Reply 8, posted (9 years 3 months 2 weeks 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 2587 times:

There are several points worth discussing. First, the union members of the Board of Directors nixed the successor that Gerald Greenwald had groomed. I can't remember his name, but he is now Chairmand CEO at CDW.

How would things have turned out if Goodwin hadn't become CEO?

How would things have turned out if Goodwin hadn't come up with the ill-fated idea of buying US?

What if Goodwin, during the summer of 2000, had sued the pilots, like AA did during the QQ merger?

What if Judge Wedoff, at some point, tells UA's attorneys that they won't get any more extensions?

I think Goodwin was a poor choice for CEO, and if UA had passed on the merger and taken legal action against its pilots, they might have avoided bankruptcy. A lot of effort was spent on preparing for the merger, and UA lost a lot of customers because of the operational problems caused by the pilots.


User currently offlineStevenUhl777 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 9, posted (9 years 3 months 2 weeks 5 days 20 hours ago) and read 2536 times:

UnitedTristar: I should have been more specific...I do not like Jim Goodwin whatsoever...he is as bad/worse than Dicky Ferris.

What if Goodwin had not become CEO? I would go as far as saying UA would not have had to file Ch. 11.
- Avolar
- Distraction over the UA/US merger
- Summer of 2000
- Seamless contract/retro. pay issue with the IAM/mechanics.
- Converting owned aircraft to leases...FOOLISH decision, especially now they're losing 777's and 763's when they go back to the lessor.

Uggghh...don't get me going. I was sorry to see Gerald Greenwald leave, and last I heard, he is leading one potential investor group interested in UAL, should Wedoff lift the restriction on outside groups submitting a reorg. plan.


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