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Why Not Expand Song?  
User currently offlinePadcrasher From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Posted (9 years 3 months 3 weeks 9 hours ago) and read 1932 times:

To include all 120+ 757s in Delta's fleet?

It's has lower labor costs, better customer satisfaction levels, lower CASM


The drawbacks are that you would most likely wind up mixing the two-class mainline product with Song 757s on the same routes, but this seems minor compared to the benefits.

17 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlineNWA1978 From United States of America, joined Dec 2004, 66 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (9 years 3 months 3 weeks 9 hours ago) and read 1905 times:

I agree. As much as it would hurt the main delta employee (lost jobs or lost wages) it would make sense for the company to do that. If you lose money here but can make money over there, why not do it? I would assume it is something to do with union contracts or something of that nature. I could be wrong, but if it were as simple as it seems, they would have done it by now. If there was nothing holding them back, they would transfer all aircraft, all routes, and everything else to song leaving delta with just the name "delta", then have song take the delta name. Obviously it's not that easy but I dont really have any idea what are in the contracts.

User currently offlineRL757PVD From United States of America, joined Dec 1999, 4646 posts, RR: 11
Reply 2, posted (9 years 3 months 3 weeks 9 hours ago) and read 1903 times:

Id love to see a song expansion, even as an elite on Delta, Id rather fly song in coach than FC on a domestic flight if its uder 3 hrs (Biz elite is a different story!). Hopefully they would be able to keep the "flare" that sets them aside from Delta now.

Part of the reason why they cant expand too much more is that some markets like PVD or BDL need aircraft larger than an MD88 for peak time flights but yet a 763 may be too large, this is why they need a mainline 757 to do these flights.

Maybe not a song expansion, but i can see a song type product making its way domestically. While FC is nice, if they created an enhanced coach product. , say B757 with 194 seats, enhancing legroom and inflight entertainment and good service it may be the way to go. Domestic FC should be reserved for key business markets and long haul domestic where people actually buy an FC ticket. Anything under 4 hrs the enhanced coach would be fine.

This type service would be perfect to medium sized markets with some business traffic. Give elite fliers preffered seating rather than FC, maybe even keep complementary drinks for them as well. but running this type of service from ATL to cities like PVD. BDL, PBI, CMH, SAT, AUS, BNA, DEN etc would serve the customer much better.



Experience is what you get when what you thought would work out didn't!
User currently offlineFlyPNS1 From United States of America, joined Nov 1999, 6586 posts, RR: 24
Reply 3, posted (9 years 3 months 3 weeks 7 hours ago) and read 1806 times:

There's a few problems with this strategy.

1) Many of the 757's are used on business routes. While Song is a good product, I think it would drive away many of DL's business customers...maybe not on shorter flight segments, but definitely on longer ones.

2) Product confusion. Customers would never really be sure what they would be getting from DL. They might fly BGR-BOS-ATL-TUS and fly on a CRJ (with one type of service), a Song 757 (with another type of service) and an MD88 (with yet another type of service). There's something called the KISS (Keep It Simple Stupid), that the successful airlines have learned and DL (and other legacies) have not.

3) Cost. The added cost of converting another 73 planes would be substantial. DL is already running low on cash and may have to burn additional assets in order to avoid CH11.

4) Costs created by multiple product lines. Because of Song (and other DL products), DL has created multiple layers of management. DL has management for Song, management for Delta Connection and management for DL mainline. DL also pays to maintain two websites...one for Delta mainline and one for Song. DL also pays more for marketing since they have to market Song separately from DL mainline. Again...all this duplication adds up.

5) Revenue premium. Song has yet to prove that it can garner a revenue premium against the LCC's. In order for DL to survive, DL must generate a premium over the LCC's since DL will never have costs as low as the LCC's.

Here's and idea instead:

Instead of focusing all of DL's attention on Song, why not improve the DL mainline product? DL has started in that direction (new interiors), but seems to be stalling out now (e.g., slashing in-flight service....minimal food, plastic glasses in F, etc).

Instead of having an amalgamation of different products, offer one consistent product from top to bottom. This means providing consisentent service whether I'm flying in a CRJ, 738, 757 or 777.


User currently offlineGSPSPOT From United States of America, joined Sep 2003, 3010 posts, RR: 2
Reply 4, posted (9 years 3 months 3 weeks 6 hours ago) and read 1757 times:

I've always thought Song would do well ATL - West Coast or ATL - Florida. I'd drive to ATL to fly Song to Vegas or Seattle....


Finally made it to an airline mecca!
User currently offlineDeltaMIA From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 1672 posts, RR: 17
Reply 5, posted (9 years 3 months 3 weeks 3 hours ago) and read 1649 times:

Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 3):
There's something called the KISS (Keep It Simple Stupid), that the successful airlines have learned and DL (and other legacies) have not.

Yeah works great if you are starting an airline, but it isn't easy to just adapt to the current way of doing business when you are a 75 year old airline. DL has to evolve (and has since the 20's, 30's, 40's, 50's, 60's, 70's, 80's, 90's) unfortunately the transformation(s) lead to a confusing product. DL can't just one night change over to the type of product they are striving to become.



It's a big building with patients, but that's not important right now.
User currently offlinePadcrasher From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 6, posted (9 years 3 months 3 weeks 2 hours ago) and read 1637 times:

Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 3):
Revenue premium. Song has yet to prove that it can garner a revenue premium against the LCC's

Well early signs are positive considering who they are going up against. Song unlike DL Express gets a yield premium agains Southwest in BDL-TPA and BDL-MCO. They have higher yields AA in the NYC-Florida markets, and higher than Jetblue out of BOS, they closed a lot of the yield gap against jetblue in the NYC-Florida markets.


User currently offlineSrbmod From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 7, posted (9 years 3 months 3 weeks 2 hours ago) and read 1598 times:

Logically, it would make sense for Delta to put Song on some of their high load, low yield routes out of ATL, like ATL-LAS and ATL-MCO. But realistically, ATL-LAS is a popular Sky Miles redemption route (one of the reasons why it is low yield) and those pax like getting to upgrade into First Class, which really is all that great these days. If DL really wanted to go after FL on this route, they'd throw the route over to Song. HP is not really a threat on the route with their once daily flight in the morning. With FL getting ready to add a third daily on the route, DL may have to do something in the near future. ATL-MCO flights don't always go out full, but they come back full, even on a widebody.

User currently offlineAirportugal310 From Palau, joined Apr 2004, 3587 posts, RR: 2
Reply 8, posted (9 years 3 months 3 weeks 2 hours ago) and read 1587 times:

I just say make all of Delta into Song.


I sell airplanes and airplane accessories
User currently offlineAa757first From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 3347 posts, RR: 8
Reply 9, posted (9 years 3 months 3 weeks 2 hours ago) and read 1569 times:

Quoting RL757PVD (Reply 2):
Domestic FC should be reserved for key business markets and long haul domestic where people actually buy an FC ticket. Anything under 4 hrs the enhanced coach would be fine.

The only problem is product standardization. Lets say Delta has the 75A and 75B. The 75A has First Class and 75B is the one class configuration.

The 75A scheduled to fly ATL to, say, BOS has an M/X delay. The only other aircraft is a 75B. So that means some First Class passengers have to sit in Economy Class.

Then the opposite happens. The 75B needs to be replaced by a 75A. There are less seats on a 75A, which means it is very likely for passengers to be bumped off this flight.

Ask Continental about these problems when Continental Lite was still around.

AAndrew


User currently offlineFA4B6 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 10, posted (9 years 3 months 2 weeks 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 1486 times:

Quoting Airportugal310 (Reply 8):
I just say make all of Delta into Song.

And I say just the opposite. Fix Delta, dont spend millions of dolars to create song. Add all that great entertainment to the 757's and fly them on competing routes with B6. Upgrade and improve your own product, and yes, KISS as much as possible. Delete redundant fleet types, get over the "we have to fly everywhere" syndrom and expunge unprofitable routes, focus on what you do best and improve the areas you're failing at. There are definite means to turn a company around, it's a dynamic group of leaders not someone who needs to create an entire airline within an airline because their own product is inferior. I'm not denouncing Song, I just hate obvious displays of band-aid'ing.


User currently offlineERJ170 From United States of America, joined Apr 2004, 6756 posts, RR: 17
Reply 11, posted (9 years 3 months 2 weeks 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 1446 times:

Quoting Aa757first (Reply 9):
The 75A scheduled to fly ATL to, say, BOS has an M/X delay. The only other aircraft is a 75B. So that means some First Class passengers have to sit in Economy Class.

Acutally, that has happened severla times at RDU. The ATL-RDU flight was switched from a DL 757 to a Song 757.. It's not really a big deal because although FC was lost, IFE was gained.. I"m almost positive that no one complained about the switch.

But I believe Song would do good on some routes out of RDU also..although I think DL should give Song about 12 738 Ex-Shuttles also..

RDU-LAX
RDU-FLL (change to 2x daily Song, 1x daily DL Connection)



Aiming High and going far..
User currently offlineLat41 From United States of America, joined Jun 2004, 469 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (9 years 3 months 2 weeks 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 1446 times:

By tradition, DL likes to protect their BOS traffic by offering only CVG and ATL from Providence and routinely charges more to most of their destinations from PVD. They would not want to offer too comprehensive a schedule or very cost competitive from PVD and risk diluting any BOS business especially after building that nice new terminal at Logan. I wouldn't expect Song in Southern New England for that reason. Meanwhile the likes of Southwest and Spirit chisel away at DL traditional business at PVD in the absence of Song. The same situation may exist in other markets around the country, I'm sure.

User currently offlineOttoPylit From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 13, posted (9 years 3 months 2 weeks 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 1395 times:

Quoting ERJ170 (Reply 11):
The ATL-RDU flight was switched from a DL 757 to a Song 757.

Those are not scheduled equipment. Its equipment substitutions and advertising. Delta will swap a DL 757 with a spare Song 757 to a spoke destination not currently served by Song. The flight crews on this flight is all Delta and one Song FA. The purpose is to get the Song name out there and encourage those who are experiencing Song for the first time to want to fly more. Isn't that what we all really want, to look forward to and wanting to fly?

As far as everyone saying just turn Delta into Song, we are forgetting the biggest point of all. Song is a subsidiary. Without Delta, there would be no Song. Delta has been here for 75 years and Gerald Grinstein has already stated several times, there is nothing about Song that will change Delta. As long as its possible, Delta will always be here. Song is 2 years old and is a low cost airline. Delta is focused more on the business traffic, Song on leisure traffic. If you expand one, you lose the other. Plus, lets look at the people. Delta employees are happy as Delta, not Song(not that I am saying they would not enjoy being Song talent), and the shareholders are happy as the airline being Delta, not Song. Although Song is a great product and I am happy to see it succeeding, keep in mind that Delta is the mothership and you cant have Song without having Delta, as well as the fact that they are for two entirely different passengers.


User currently offlineERJ170 From United States of America, joined Apr 2004, 6756 posts, RR: 17
Reply 14, posted (9 years 3 months 2 weeks 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 1365 times:

Quoting OttoPylit (Reply 13):
Those are not scheduled equipment. Its equipment substitutions

Did I not make that clear? My bad.. those were equipment substitution swaps.. and they were not advertisements because they were usually the 8:00+ flight that was substituted... Only once have I seen an afternoon DL 757 subbed with a Song 757... although it may have happened more since I am not at the airport much..



Aiming High and going far..
User currently offlineOttoPylit From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 15, posted (9 years 3 months 2 weeks 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 1326 times:

Quoting ERJ170 (Reply 14):
they were not advertisements because they were usually the 8:00+ flight that was substituted

Sorry, I'm not saying that your wrong or right in any sense. What I am saying is that Delta is often substituting Song planes in cities where there is no Song service to advertise it, but it also subs them for other reasons, mx, etc. So what you have been seeing may be a little of both, or all of one. I'm not in scheduling, so I would not know. What I do know is that they do rotate Song planes into other cities in order to advertise Song and show customers what Song is like. Most customers see it as an interesting change and remember that, therefore, more likely to return and want to use Song in the future.


User currently offlineN77014 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 16, posted (9 years 3 months 2 weeks 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 1278 times:

Quote: To include all 120+ 757s in Delta's fleet?




The same reason not all of UA's A320's are Ted. There are too many high-yield markets where the traditional BizElite/ Y class mix (domestic and int'l) win out, especially for those FFlyers looking for upgrades.

Can you imagine an ATL flyer not being to upgrade to LAX, MEX, GUA, SFO?


User currently offlineAirportugal310 From Palau, joined Apr 2004, 3587 posts, RR: 2
Reply 17, posted (9 years 3 months 2 weeks 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 1270 times:

Quoting FA4B6 (Reply 10):
And I say just the opposite. Fix Delta, dont spend millions of dolars to create song. Add all that great entertainment to the 757's and fly them on competing routes with B6. Upgrade and improve your own product, and yes, KISS as much as possible. Delete redundant fleet types, get over the "we have to fly everywhere" syndrom and expunge unprofitable routes, focus on what you do best and improve the areas you're failing at. There are definite means to turn a company around, it's a dynamic group of leaders not someone who needs to create an entire airline within an airline because their own product is inferior. I'm not denouncing Song, I just hate obvious displays of band-aid'ing.

Yeah that works too  Wink



I sell airplanes and airplane accessories
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