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How Near Is PHL To Capacity?  
User currently offline7E72004 From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 3587 posts, RR: 2
Posted (9 years 8 months 2 weeks 8 hours ago) and read 3535 times:

Taking into account PHL as it exists right now, how much more can the airport handle in terms of flights, etc.? Were they going to build another runway to help alleviate the problem? Is it possible for them to build a parallel runway far enough away from the curren one for parellel landings? The last time i was at PHL there seemed to be some land to the west of the terminal across the highway but that was 3 years ago. Any thoughts/info.? thanks.  Big grin


The next generation of aircraft is just around the corner!
52 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineTockeyhockey From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 952 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (9 years 8 months 2 weeks 8 hours ago) and read 3528 times:

as i understand it, PHL is nowhere near capacity. consider the fact that it is a nice-sized airport in the country's fourth largest city, yet it is not in the top 30 busiest airports in the country.

with the new international terminal up and running, i think PHL is well sized for what it is used for (not too many airports you can say that about these days!)


User currently offlineUSAFHummer From United States of America, joined May 2000, 10685 posts, RR: 52
Reply 2, posted (9 years 8 months 2 weeks 8 hours ago) and read 3515 times:

PHL's room for physical expansion is severely limited by geographic constraints with I-95 to the north, shipyards to the east, and Delaware River to the south, which effectively have hemmed in the airport to its current area...

Greg



Chief A.net college football stadium self-pic guru
User currently offlineUsairways85 From United States of America, joined Nov 2001, 3473 posts, RR: 7
Reply 3, posted (9 years 8 months 2 weeks 7 hours ago) and read 3505 times:

In regards to terminal space, PHL is not near capacity. However, where the problem comes in is runways and taxiways. PHL often faces delays due to the FAA and once flts become backed up at PHL there isn't very many places for them to go. Thus causing gateholds and further delays just in taxing.

As for the third runway. The likely option will be to build a 3rd runway partly out in the Delaware to allow for parallel landings/takeoffs. However this runway is at least 10 years from being built.


User currently online727LOVER From United States of America, joined Oct 2001, 6622 posts, RR: 20
Reply 4, posted (9 years 8 months 2 weeks 7 hours ago) and read 3473 times:

Any chance Philadelphia will take the Denver solution?


I feel woozy....what did you put in that Pudding Pop?
User currently offlineTockeyhockey From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 952 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (9 years 8 months 2 weeks 7 hours ago) and read 3456 times:

Quoting 727LOVER (Reply 4):
Any chance Philadelphia will take the Denver solution?

there was talk many years ago of building a second airport in jersey, but the land restrictions in philly and its surrounding cities, most of which are 400 years old and incredibly dense, are much different compared to the land use issues outside of denver. it is inconceivable that the denver solution would ever happen in southeastern PA, jersey, or deleware.

i think that PHL, by most standards, is an airport that is logically sized for the market it serves. could it be more efficient with another runway? probably. but i could name 25 airports that need expansion more than PHL does right now.

PHL is not a major hub. it is a fine second-tier airport that is doing about what it is expected to do.


User currently offlinePHLBOS From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 7558 posts, RR: 23
Reply 6, posted (9 years 8 months 2 weeks 6 hours ago) and read 3439 times:

Quoting Tockeyhockey (Reply 5):
PHL is not a major hub.

Tell that to US Airways.



"TransEastern! You'll feel like you've never left the ground because we treat you like dirt!" SNL Parady ad circa 1981
User currently offlineBigOrange From United States of America, joined Apr 2004, 2375 posts, RR: 3
Reply 7, posted (9 years 8 months 2 weeks 6 hours ago) and read 3435 times:

Why don't they just move PHL to ILG???

User currently offline7E72004 From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 3587 posts, RR: 2
Reply 8, posted (9 years 8 months 2 weeks 6 hours ago) and read 3435 times:

I know that this has been discussed before but what about PNE? Would that be a viable alternative as a "2nd" airport?


The next generation of aircraft is just around the corner!
User currently offlineSESGDL From United States of America, joined Jan 2001, 3489 posts, RR: 10
Reply 9, posted (9 years 8 months 2 weeks 6 hours ago) and read 3414 times:

Quoting Tockeyhockey (Reply 5):
PHL is not a major hub. it is a fine second-tier airport that is doing about what it is expected to do.

PHL is a major hub, it's the second largest hub for US Airways. What are you thinking? US and US Express have over 450 daily flights from PHL to destinations all over.

Jeremy


User currently offlineSupa7E7 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 10, posted (9 years 8 months 2 weeks 6 hours ago) and read 3415 times:

PHL has around 30 million annual pax. Second tier perhaps, but then so are NRT, HKG....


"The 28.5 million passengers [in 2004] will likely move PHL into a virtual tie with Seattle/Tacoma as the 16th busiest U.S. airport in terms of passenger traffic. The latest airline schedules show PHL with 665 scheduled daily departures to more than 130 domestic and international destinations.

Complementing the new heights reached in passenger traffic and plane movements is the all-time best 604,683 tons of freight moved in 2004, which eclipsed the previous mark of 570,838 tons set in 2002."

http://biz.yahoo.com/bw/050223/235462_1.html


User currently offlineTockeyhockey From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 952 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (9 years 8 months 2 weeks 5 hours ago) and read 3375 times:

Quoting PHLBOS (Reply 6):
PHL is not a major hub.

Tell that to US Airways.

sorry to insult US -- you're right, PHL is a major hub for US. what i really meant to say is that it is not a top tier hub, like ORD, DFW, IAD, JFK etc. it's not even a hub that gets as much traffic as CVG!

it's the 30th busiest airport in the US (or something like that) -- it's hard to argue that it's a top tier hub.

Quoting Supa7E7 (Reply 10):
"The 28.5 million passengers [in 2004] will likely move PHL into a virtual tie with Seattle/Tacoma as the 16th busiest U.S. airport in terms of passenger traffic. The latest airline schedules show PHL with 665 scheduled daily departures to more than 130 domestic and international destinations.

wow, if that's right, i apologize. i just read in the washington post a few days ago the top 50 airports in terms of passengers and i could have sworn i saw PHL in the 30th slot.


User currently offlinePHLB707320B From United States of America, joined Mar 2005, 15 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (9 years 8 months 2 weeks 5 hours ago) and read 3353 times:

While PHL ranks 16th in terms of passengers, there was a ranking referenced on this site a number of months ago, which ranked PHL 11th in terms of aircraft movements. While the airport may not be at capacity, it's primary runway utilization (27R for arrivals and 27L for departures) often compromises efficiency, leading to delays. The high volume airspace above also poses constrants. My experience for departures at a hub such as DFW, seems that things happen much more quickly. As one aircraft begins it's take-off roll, the aircraft holding behind it immediately makes it's way into position and is ready to go. Here at PHL, you often play the sitting, going nowhere game.....the aircraft on the active departs and all other aircraft just sit and wait. When the next in line moves onto the runway and leaves and all the rest just sit and wait. At any rate, anyone in viewing PHL's future development plans can find it at www.phl.org. There are two versions, one basically keeping the current runway configuration and adding a 3rd east/west runway. The second is a complete overhaul building 4 Northeast/Southwest runways, two on either side of the terminal complex.

User currently offlinePSU.DTW.SCE From United States of America, joined Jan 2002, 7768 posts, RR: 27
Reply 13, posted (9 years 8 months 2 weeks 4 hours ago) and read 3332 times:

As mentioned, PHL is constrained by its airfield capacity, not the terminal & concourse infrastructure. A lot of improvements have been made to the terminal & gate areas over the past few years, especially the new international terminal and regional concourse. PHL sees an awful lot of RJ's and props thanks to USAirways, hence why PHL is high in movements, but lower in passenger numbers. The prop traffic is actually not a problem as they can generally use 8-26 which is pretty much exclusive to prop traffic, but too short for RJ's.

DEN is arguably the only city in the country that could pull off what they did.....that is go and build a brand new airport at a greenfield site. No other city has as much open land that close to the city center. Certainly almost no on on the East Coast. Even ORD and the whole Peotone issue, its a lot farther away from the city center than DEN is now currently. With PHL you would have to go almost all the way up to the Lehigh Valley or out past Coatesville to even thing about doing something like that, and even then there is a lot of terrain and development issues. Then it is nowhere close to being convienient for most of the metro area.

Going forward, the airfield will need to be reconfigured to expand runway capacity. That will be a huge undertaking, but it will be necessary to fix the delay problems that arrise whenever there are weather issues. PHL can jam up on overcast days, which most other major airports can handle just fine. Also reliever airports will play an important role in air service in Southeastern PA/Northern Delaware/Western New Jersey.....specifically ILG, LNS, RDG, AVP, and TTN.

In the future PHL will have to


User currently offlineTockeyhockey From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 952 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (9 years 8 months 1 week 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 3249 times:

Quoting 7E72004 (Reply 8):
I know that this has been discussed before but what about PNE? Would that be a viable alternative as a "2nd" airport?

as a person who grew up in the northeast, my guess is that PNE is even more landlocked and limited to growth than PHL. believe it or not, the area near the airport might be more "rural" (if you can call it that) than the areas around PNE.


User currently offlineMD11LuxuryLinr From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 1385 posts, RR: 14
Reply 15, posted (9 years 8 months 1 week 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 3233 times:

Quoting PSU.DTW.SCE (Reply 13):
The prop traffic is actually not a problem as they can generally use 8-26 which is pretty much exclusive to prop traffic, but too short for RJ's.

Partially correct, there. RJs have used 26 for landings at least.. An E170 landed on it a couple days ago.

I guess I should mention that I saw Miami Air also land a 738 on it..

[Edited 2005-04-14 05:00:10]


Caution wake turbulence, you are following a heavy jet.
User currently offlineUsairways85 From United States of America, joined Nov 2001, 3473 posts, RR: 7
Reply 16, posted (9 years 8 months 1 week 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 3230 times:

PNE doesn't have the facilities to handle much commercial traffic. Is there even much of a Terminal there. I know they have several hangars holding private planes. I've driven past it many times but have never really seen an actual terminal. Anyway it is also a hassle to get there if you are not from the immediate area. Stuck between rt. 1 (Roosevelt Blvd.) and 95. There are many traffic lights on the roads leading to the airport.

User currently offlineUSAFHummer From United States of America, joined May 2000, 10685 posts, RR: 52
Reply 17, posted (9 years 8 months 1 week 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 3212 times:

Quoting 7E72004 (Reply 8):
I know that this has been discussed before but what about PNE? Would that be a viable alternative as a "2nd" airport?

Also NIMBY central...seeing as PNE is right in the middle of densely populated Northeast Philadelphia...

Greg



Chief A.net college football stadium self-pic guru
User currently offlineCha747 From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 788 posts, RR: 6
Reply 18, posted (9 years 8 months 1 week 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 3207 times:

My question is, how come the Philadelphia Naval Yard cannot be turned into a set of runways with a taxiway and (complete with a bridge to cross the Delaware River tributaries) that connects it to the main airfield? IIRC, the base is just sitting there and rotting. Or else, demolish the whole naval yard, have a separate set of runways and terminal, and have the two separate airfields that sit only a mile apart linked by high speed rail. Nahh...that's just too easy and makes too much sense.

As far as the Denver-type of solution, there are acres and acres of farmland in South Jersey that could be organized into enough space to accommodate a world-class international airport. Remember, Central Airport in Camden, NJ was the Philadelphia metropolitan area's major airport throughout the 1930's, but when all its tenants moved across the river to the longer runways at the current PHL, it was doomed. Currently, PHL is accessible by rail service to the city. Center City Philadelphia is only 8 miles away and downtown Wilmington, Delaware is only 25 miles away. With I-95 and I-476 offering such convenient highway access to the current PHL, I doubt that it's going anywhere anytime soon.



You land a million planes safely, then you have one little mid-air and you never hear the end of it - Pushing Tin
User currently offlineUsairways85 From United States of America, joined Nov 2001, 3473 posts, RR: 7
Reply 19, posted (9 years 8 months 1 week 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 3195 times:

Alright first, the Naval yard is not just sitting abandoned. Kaverner builds ships on old dry docks there. They currently have a crane used for the shipbuilding that would be in the way of the landing pattern if they extended the most recently built runway. The naval yard is also home to the Philly cruise ship terminal that has seen an increasingly number of trips over the past few years. Also there are long term plans to develope the old base into a downtown type setting where they might include places to gamble.

As far as South Jersey being farmland, yes i agree however as the years go on you have to travel further and further into Jersey to find wide open areas. The parts of Burlington, Camden, and Gloucster Counties that border the Delaware have been developed greatly in the past 5-10 years. It would be too far of a commute for people in the surrounding PA counties to travel into South Jersey to get a flt.


User currently offlineUSAFHummer From United States of America, joined May 2000, 10685 posts, RR: 52
Reply 20, posted (9 years 8 months 1 week 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 3182 times:

Quoting Cha747 (Reply 18):

As far as the Denver-type of solution, there are acres and acres of farmland in South Jersey that could be organized into enough space to accommodate a world-class international airport.

PHL's current location is almost perfect... if moved into South Jersey then us PA suburbanites would scream bloody murder, and vice versa, and if they moved it west into, say, Chester County (just for argument's sake, I know that won't happen), then the South Jerseyites would be irritated...its location is just perfect currently...
Greg



Chief A.net college football stadium self-pic guru
User currently offlineCrownvic From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 1955 posts, RR: 5
Reply 21, posted (9 years 8 months 1 week 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 3175 times:

PHL has very high O&D and is far from a 2nd tier airport. If one has never been to the NE, they just do not understand what airports like DCA, PHL, EWR and DCA face. I can tell you this, if PHL had the space, based on population, O&D, location,etc. it would easily match ATL, ORD or DFW, if it were "blessed" with 4-10 full size runways. I would love to see these airports perform the same way these NE facilities manage. Although PHL has 3 parallel's and one crossing runway, it's practically impossible to utilize them all at once because of their close proximity to each other.

User currently offlineFlyboy7974 From United States of America, joined Jan 2003, 1540 posts, RR: 2
Reply 22, posted (9 years 8 months 1 week 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 3168 times:

what is the intersecting runway, i believe, 17-35, wasnt there talk about extending that? i know that southwest uses that runway for landings, as i saw it when i was there mid january. what is the length of 17-35

User currently offlineUSAFHummer From United States of America, joined May 2000, 10685 posts, RR: 52
Reply 23, posted (9 years 8 months 1 week 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 3158 times:

Quoting Flyboy7974 (Reply 22):
what is the intersecting runway, i believe, 17-35, wasnt there talk about extending that?

Yes, it will be extended another 1,000 feet or so in the coming years...

Greg



Chief A.net college football stadium self-pic guru
User currently offlineCha747 From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 788 posts, RR: 6
Reply 24, posted (9 years 8 months 1 week 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 3158 times:

Hey Greg,

I completely agree with you; I was commenting that there IS space nearby. Heck, I live in Center City and most people who aren't from around here are surprised that I can make it from the gate back home in under 30 minutes; once I was home watching TV on my couch before the darn AF flight was supposed to even have landed! I don't think that the NIMBY's out in Medford would ever allow such a creatiion but it is theoretically possible.

USairways85...I know of the Kvaerner Crane and I've seen the cruise ships...but if you go to Google maps and find PHL and then click on the satellite button on the right, you'll see how it would have been such a nice natural extension to the airport to have another runway. It's good that Kvaerner brought these jobs to the area and were able to use the dry docks, but the fact remains that an exhorbitant amount of space is being wasted there with all of the mothballed ships and the old base housing.



You land a million planes safely, then you have one little mid-air and you never hear the end of it - Pushing Tin
25 Post contains links Tockeyhockey : you can view the proposed master plan here: http://www.phl.org/master_plan.html notice how they want to lengthen every runway, and build at least one
26 PHLBOS : First and foremost. When the 2 Airport Master Plans were unveiled last year; nearly everybody from the wealthier Delaware County townships and borough
27 USAFHummer : Probably...the diagonal plan calls for essentially the demolition of much of the current terminal complex as well, and that would throw PHL travelers
28 7E72004 : That would go over well...the tearing down of the "newly" remodeled airport and brand new international terminal!
29 PHLBOS : Actually 7E72004, Terminal A (West & East) would be the only terminals spared demolition in the diagonal runway layout scheme. The other terminals wou
30 7E72004 : So everything else including the "new" F terminal would be demolished? What a mess that would create!! Wouldn't it be cheaper to just build a new runw
31 PHLBOS : The third parallel runway option not only involves the relocation of UPS' facilities and Hog Island Road it also involves landfilling part of the Del
32 Beckaru : I've only been to PHL twice, but was surprised that it wasn't bigger (compared to PIT, which is in a smaller city). I was flying Delta, but didn't not
33 PHLBOS : DL operates out of Terminal E; the same terminal as NW, WN, & YX. US operates out of A-West (international flights), B, C, & F (Express operations).
34 Tockeyhockey : i'm sure that PHLBOS has a better sense of this than i do, but as i understand it US is no longer operating a hub at PIT. from reports that i've read
35 Usairways85 : According the April Schedule PHL has 500 daily flts and PIT only has 233 only 67 of which are mainline flts. So PHL currently has more than double the
36 Runway27right : BTW, PHL is ranked the 18th busiest airport up from 20th in 2000.
37 Post contains images 7E72004 : If US had to choose between PHL and CLT which would they choose in terms of having to get rid of another hub? PHL would be my choice for the main reas
38 UALPHLCS : As already mentioned Kaverner has a huge ship building facitlity at the Navy Yard. The Navy still owns and operated the reserve basis where many ship
39 Runway27right : Airport arrivals in past 24 hrs. Based on this, I guess LAX is also a second tier Airport. Corporate Aircraft Only (8852 landings/24hrs) Pos. Arrivals
40 Tockeyhockey : wow, i've never seen PHL rank that high on any frequency survey, even a daily one. i guess the WN effect is really working. i remember reading all th
41 7E72004 : Just out of curiosity, how far is PNE from PHL?
42 Haveric : About 10 miles north on I-95. It's between I-95 and US-1 in Northeast Philly. Hasn't had commercial service since the mid-90s, when a TWA affiliate r
43 SonOfACaptain : Not really. The biggest thing that has afffect PHL is the closing of the PIT bub, and US shifting a lot of the flights to PHL, along with CLT. -SOAC
44 Hjulicher : Although PHL is a large airport, I don't forsee it becoming an efficient hub any time soon. I have flown into the airport many times, and I must comme
45 Usairways85 : While US has added a good 75-100 flts in the past year to PHL, Southwest has added 50 flts of its own. If Southwest gets another gate or two expect t
46 Tockeyhockey : SOAC, what you describe IS the southwest effect!!! WN comes into a new market, they put pressure on other airlines to ramp up their flight schedules
47 UALPHLCS : The fact is is that it already is a hub airport. We aren't talking about an airport that wants to be a hub. As for the East coast comment EWR is on t
48 PHLBOS : Oh man, where do I start: 1. The ground that PHL is situated on is mostly built on filled marshland; if there wasn't marsh or wetland out there, ther
49 Tockeyhockey : where are the outward locators right now? where would they be shifted if PHL switched to a diagonal layout? (sorry, air traffic control layperson spe
50 ORD2PHL : I don't know about the rest of you, but for someone who is in and out of PHL at least 3 times a month, I can tell you that there are definitely some c
51 PHLBOS : That's probably because of the increase in small mainline (717/737/A319) landings on Runway 35 as well as the occassional rj or even E170s landing on
52 SonOfACaptain : I realize that, but no where did I say WN did not have an affect. All I said was that the biggest reason was the closing of the PIT hub. Not really,
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