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Air Canada Fleet Renewal Update  
User currently offlineNorCalSF From United States of America, joined Jul 2004, 34 posts, RR: 0
Posted (9 years 7 months 2 weeks 5 days 21 hours ago) and read 17885 times:

fyi from today's Wall Street Journal:

"Mr. Milton said Air Canada already has "attractive proposals" from both Boeing and Airbus and the competition between the manufacturers is "coming down to the final stages."

The new aircraft would replace 45 Boeing 767s over several years. If Boeing wins the bidding, Air Canada would also replace 20 Airbus wide-body aircraft. The airline also expects to gradually expand its total fleet, so a win for Boeing could mean orders for more than 65 planes, while an Airbus win would be for more than 45 jets. Mr. Milton said the airline may initially place firm orders for half of the aircraft, with the rest under option.

A centerpiece of the order would involve either the Boeing 787 Dreamliner, which won't be available for delivery until 2008, or the planned Airbus A350, slated to be ready in 2010. Meanwhile, if Air Canada chooses Boeing it will begin taking delivery of Boeing 777s next year, Mr. Milton said. If Airbus is chosen, it would begin delivering A330s next year, followed by A340s and later the A350, he said.

Mr. Milton stressed that the cost of the program would be spread out over many years. Also, the net cost to Air Canada will be significantly less than the amount of the order, because the carrier will be shedding aircraft that still have substantial value, he added."

104 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineCaptaingomes From Canada, joined Feb 2001, 6413 posts, RR: 55
Reply 1, posted (9 years 7 months 2 weeks 5 days 19 hours ago) and read 17682 times:

This is one press release that I just can't wait to read. Milton is also correct, the 767's are very highly sought after, and I'm sure the A330's will easily find homes too.


"it's kind of like an Airbus, it's an engineering marvel, but there's no sense of passion" -- J. Clarkson re: Coxster
User currently offlineDalecary From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 2, posted (9 years 7 months 2 weeks 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 17471 times:

Quoting Captaingomes (Reply 1):
Mr. Milton stressed that the cost of the program would be spread out over many years. Also, the net cost to Air Canada will be significantly less than the amount of the order, because the carrier will be shedding aircraft that still have substantial value, he added."

333s,343s and 345s would seem to have substantially more value and would be more sought after(read Indian market) than AC's 762/763 fleet.
Sebring has been right all along; I've been trying to argue the 787/340 split order case, but this article makes it clear that this contest is a winner take all. I can only surmise the 787 is the favourite over the 350 at AC(as it seems to be at most carriers), so an AC 777/787 order may very well be imminent. If this occurs, it really shows just how aggressive Boeing have become(because price will be very important here) and will really show the technical advantages of the 772LR/773ER/787 over the 345/346/350.
Still, it hasn't been officially announced, but a Boeing win here will be a huge blow to Airbus.


User currently offlineNYC777 From United States of America, joined Jun 2004, 5796 posts, RR: 47
Reply 3, posted (9 years 7 months 2 weeks 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 17445 times:

Any word on when the announcement will be made?


That which does not kill me makes me stronger.
User currently offlineNorCalSF From United States of America, joined Jul 2004, 34 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (9 years 7 months 2 weeks 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 17410 times:

Milton was quoted in the WSJ article that the announcement would be made in June. But it could also obviously be sooner.

User currently offlineAseem From India, joined Feb 2005, 2046 posts, RR: 10
Reply 5, posted (9 years 7 months 2 weeks 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 17379 times:

if the order goes in favour of Boeing, then will they replace their newly acquired A345? And what about the A346 they've ordered.

IMHO! the order seems to be in favour of Boeing as very little is known about A350, which is also slated for delivery 2 years later than B787.

rgds
Aseem



ala re ala, VT-ALA ala
User currently offlineDalecary From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 6, posted (9 years 7 months 2 weeks 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 17322 times:

Quoting Aseem (Reply 5):
if the order goes in favour of Boeing, then will they replace their newly acquired A345? And what about the A346 they've ordered.

Yep, if Boeing win this order, the AC WB fleet will be made up of 772LR/773ER and 787. As Milton points out, this will take quite a few years,which helps to spread the financial burden.
Of course, if Airbus wins, the 767 fleet gets replaced with 330/350. The order would be for 345/346HGW and 350.

Quoting Aseem (Reply 5):

IMHO! the order seems to be in favour of Boeing as very little is known about A350, which is also slated for delivery 2 years later than B787.

This is clearly the way I read it. The 350 better get itself officially launched and defined in a hurry if Airbus wants to be in the running in these key campaigns. Airbus has Leahy on their side, and he could still pull a near miracle, but his magic does seem to be fading a bit lately.


User currently offlineDeltaWings From Switzerland, joined Aug 2004, 1294 posts, RR: 17
Reply 7, posted (9 years 7 months 2 weeks 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 17290 times:

If they go for the 777/787 deal, could we see an order for the 773 to replace the A346s? If so, AC would be the first airline in north america, which would have ordered the 773.


~DeltaWings



Homer: Marge, it takes two to lie. One to lie and one to listen.
User currently offlineAC320 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 8, posted (9 years 7 months 2 weeks 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 17223 times:

I think it's a bit early to say who's going to win, I'm quite sure it can still go either way and will definitely go down to the wire. Either choice looks like it could be a win-win choice for AC considering the bidding war the airline seems to have started. Some points/questions:

1) The article mentions 2008 for the 787, but considering the number of orders Boeing secured ahead of Air Canada, any idea when the airline might actually start to take deliveries?

2) We haven't heard much about the A350, but then we aren't a large airline with potentially billions to invest in an aircraft program. With the 787 design becoming more and more concrete, I recall a user mentioning in another thread that Airbus might have more flexibility in offering design incentives tailored to AC's needs, in exchange for a large order and boost of confidence in the program. That would sure make one hell of an advertising campaign for AC: "Introducing Air Canada's new A350 service, tailor-made by Airbus to serve the needs of our passengers". AC might be able to pull some derivative of the A350 down to a better 767 replacements. Possible?

3) With Airbus licking its wounds after Korean and NW they might go and pull out all the stops regarding incentives to order regarding parts, maintenance, training, performance guarantees, discounts on future narrow body orders on existing lines or even future next-generation narrow body aircraft.

A 787 order would establish it as the clear winner and then some, and be Boeing's biggest coup in ages, while an A350 order would cement the relationship between AC and Airbus and breathe new life into the program. I think each manufacture still has a few cards to play, and while I can't say I'm confident who might get it, it's going to be one hell of a show!


User currently offlineN79969 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 9, posted (9 years 7 months 2 weeks 5 days 15 hours ago) and read 17147 times:

I certainly hope that they do go with Boeing. I think the 787 sale will be easier to make than 777. The 787 has something approaching estimated performance specs while the A350's specs are still in the realm of aspirational goals.

On the other hand, Air Canada already has A340s so adding to an existing fleet is a low-risk proposition for Air Canada. I have not kept up with what has gone on at Air Canada recent times.

Not that long ago, they were in very, very poor shape and now they are ordering new jets. Glad to hear it but would like to know what occured while my attention was elsewhere.


User currently offlineYyz717 From Canada, joined Sep 2001, 16335 posts, RR: 56
Reply 10, posted (9 years 7 months 2 weeks 5 days 15 hours ago) and read 17101 times:

I'm not so sure the 333's will be highly sought after. They will only be attractive to existing RR 330 customers, or perhaps non-330 operators.

AC does not need to replace the 763 any time soon. The 763 remains in production and is not an inefficient aircraft. AC should consider retaining the 763 fleet for 10+ years to maximize the ROI. Moreover, AC has only just emerged from bankruptcy and has yet to report a profit (much to the disappointment of airline analysts) even with a partially depreciated 763 fleet, hence AC's ability to make a profit with a more expensive fleet of 787/350 aircraft is questionable.

AC should focus on generating a profit from its existing fleet before embarking on a large widebody order, however much Milton loves a press conference.



Panam, TWA, Ansett, Eastern.......AC next? Might be good for Canada.
User currently offlineBmacleod From Canada, joined Aug 2001, 2351 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (9 years 7 months 2 weeks 5 days 15 hours ago) and read 17016 times:

I've heard rumors that AC's 340-500 are not performing to AC's expectations. Is this true?

It has been at least 15 years since AC last ordered from Boeing and this hopeful order would end this "drought".  pray 



The engine is the heart of an airplane, but the pilot is its soul.
User currently offlineMilan320 From Canada, joined Jan 2005, 869 posts, RR: 11
Reply 12, posted (9 years 7 months 2 weeks 5 days 15 hours ago) and read 16990 times:

Quoting AC320 (Reply 8):
With Airbus licking its wounds after Korean and NW they might go and pull out all the stops regarding incentives to order regarding parts, maintenance, training, performance guarantees, discounts on future narrow body orders on existing lines or even future next-generation narrow body aircraft.

Add to that fact that Airbus could make AC and A350 launch customer - which has additional advantages.

/Milan320



I accept bribes ... :-)
User currently offlineN79969 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 13, posted (9 years 7 months 2 weeks 5 days 15 hours ago) and read 16943 times:

I think RR powered A330s would hold their own in the aftermarket. Maybe a company like Cathay Pacific or a Middle Eastern airline or even Lufthansa that is looking to add capacity at relatively low cost would be interested. Cathay picked up a few PW powered 744...

User currently offlineYUL332LX From Canada, joined Feb 2004, 820 posts, RR: 1
Reply 14, posted (9 years 7 months 2 weeks 5 days 15 hours ago) and read 16882 times:

Quoting AC320 (Reply 8):
We haven't heard much about the A350, but then we aren't a large airline with potentially billions to invest in an aircraft program. With the 787 design becoming more and more concrete, I recall a user mentioning in another thread that Airbus might have more flexibility in offering design incentives tailored to AC's needs, in exchange for a large order and boost of confidence in the program. That would sure make one hell of an advertising campaign for AC: "Introducing Air Canada's new A350 service, tailor-made by Airbus to serve the needs of our passengers".

Yeah, I brought it up a couple of time. If AC selects Airbus' A350, it will be considered as one of the main factor methinks.



E volavo, volavo felice più in alto del sole, e ancora più su mentre il mondo pian piano spariva lontano laggiù ...
User currently offlineYyz717 From Canada, joined Sep 2001, 16335 posts, RR: 56
Reply 15, posted (9 years 7 months 2 weeks 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 16789 times:

Quoting N79969 (Reply 13):
I think RR powered A330s would hold their own in the aftermarket. Maybe a company like Cathay Pacific or a Middle Eastern airline or even Lufthansa that is looking to add capacity at relatively low cost would be interested. Cathay picked up a few PW powered 744...

CX & LH only buy new widebodies. I hardly see either CX or LH wanting to add used 333's. I just don't see 8 used RR 333's being of much use to any airline(s) any time quickly.

The used PW 744's for CX are for cargo conversion.



Panam, TWA, Ansett, Eastern.......AC next? Might be good for Canada.
User currently offlineSebring From Canada, joined Jul 2004, 1666 posts, RR: 14
Reply 16, posted (9 years 7 months 2 weeks 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 16751 times:


2) We haven't heard much about the A350, but then we aren't a large airline with potentially billions to invest in an aircraft program. With the 787 design becoming more and more concrete, I recall a user mentioning in another thread that Airbus might have more flexibility in offering design incentives tailored to AC's needs, in exchange for a large order and boost of confidence in the program. That would sure make one hell of an advertising campaign for AC: "Introducing Air Canada's new A350 service, tailor-made by Airbus to serve the needs of our passengers". AC might be able to pull some derivative of the A350 down to a better 767 replacements. Possible?

3) With Airbus licking its wounds after Korean and NW they might go and pull out all the stops regarding incentives to order regarding parts, maintenance, training, performance guarantees, discounts on future narrow body orders on existing lines or even future next-generation narrow body aircraft.




Actually, AC is a large airline, and it does have billions to spend (over several years, mind you). While not a freespender like EK, AC has clout, and it is well-positionned right now to use it. For example, if AC and LH buy 350s, it would supercharge what appears to be a moribund program. It would short-circuit Boeing attempt to short-circuit the 350.

So yes, it is possible that Airbus can make changes to suit its launch customers. The problem is, AC would want to err on making the lower capacity end of the plane's potential productive, while other potential customers like EK want a high capacity stretch. Still, Airbus must be getting desperate, and never underestimate their ability to throw a "Hail Mary pass". That's why this competition has become drawn out. It's camel trading time, and the heat is on bother vendors. Boeing can probably taste this deal, and they know that if a major Airbus customer defects, it will be a huge win that will figure into the thinking of other potential customers. It's becoming the bid neither offerer can afford to lose. Which is why AC is licking its chops.

I'm not so sure the 333's will be highly sought after. They will only be attractive to existing RR 330 customers, or perhaps non-330 operators.

You can't find an available used 333 on the planet. AC is very happy with these planes and they can be easily repositionned with other carriers. These are five-year-old planes, and well maintained by AC! They could be placed in a day.

AC should consider retaining the 763 fleet for 10+ years to maximize the ROI. Moreover, AC has only just emerged from bankruptcy and has yet to report a profit (much to the disappointment of airline analysts) even with a partially depreciated 763 fleet, hence AC's ability to make a profit with a more expensive fleet of 787/350 aircraft is questionable.


Some of AC's 763s are new, and won't be retiring any time soon. Then again, low-cycle, GE-powered 763s are in hot demand. However, since AC wouldn't get a 787 or 350 until 2010, and would begin by replacing much older 762s and 763s, those newer planes should be flying for AC for a decade.

AC should focus on generating a profit from its existing fleet before embarking on a large widebody order, however much Milton loves a press conference.


Blah, blah, blah.... AC needs more aircraft because it is positionning to be a primarily international carrier. That's the business plan that the creditors accepted. The Canadian government is negotiating new route opportunities to the fastest growing markets in the world - China and India. Air Canada doesn't have the planes to exploit these new opportunities, and it needs larger aircraft to better utilize its LHR, FRA and NRT slots, hence the interest in the 773-300ER or A346HGW.

Secondly, Air Canada, post restructuring, is virtually debt free, with only aircraft leases on its long-term debt. About half the lease value is in planes that would be off-loaded through this acquisition program. So the actual cost of the new aircraft would be mitigated by selling off the existing fleet and/or having lessors sublet to other carriers.

Thirdly, AC just completed a C$792 million sale of equity, and its stock price has almost doubled since emerging from bankruptcy protection last Sept 30. It has over C$2.2 billion in the bank, and AC will push that to as much as C$3.3 billion when it sells part of Aeroplan, probably in this calender quarter. This is clearly a good time to take on more aircraft, particularly since the deliveries will be staggered over a decade or more.

You don't wait in this business for perfect conditions to buy the aircraft you need or you will find yourself waiting 2-3 years for deliveries because every one of your competitors will be in the queue before you. And then they will be first to inaugurate the new routes you want to develop.

Also, most of AC's widebody fleet need interior upgrades to be competitive with those carriers offering amenties like in-seat video. It's much cheaper to do that with a new plane at the factory than it is to withdraw aircraft from service and put them through maintenance for a week or more. If AC goes for a new large widebody fleet, it will be saving a hundred million dollars or more that it currently plans to spend upgrading those 20 large Airbus planes.

Finally, Air Canada's ability to enhance its profitability is tied to its ability to grow. Yes, it can make money at currect capacity levels with the current fleet. However, many of the labor advantages it negotiated during its restructuring carry "kickers" that act as incentives to expand. For example, much of the growth labor, including all of the seasonal hiring it needs at airports to operate a lot more peak capacity, can now be done at particularly advantage pay rates. In the passenger agent contract, all new regular hiring for some time will be part time and temporary employees on a B scale, but over and above that, when vacations are granted to regular employees, they can be replaced by "vacation relievers" on a C scale. So if a regular employee is off on vacation, instead of having to replace them with another full-time A scale employee to do mundate chores like push a wheelchair or drive a cart or guide people to the right line (greeters), they can get a student in for several weeks on a C scale.

So if AC grows capacity, the result will be a lowering of unit costs, making all flying that much cheaper and increasing margins on profitable flying.


User currently offlineMilan320 From Canada, joined Jan 2005, 869 posts, RR: 11
Reply 17, posted (9 years 7 months 2 weeks 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 16707 times:

Quoting YUL332LX (Reply 14):
Yeah, I brought it up a couple of time. If AC selects Airbus' A350, it will be considered as one of the main factor methinks.

As much as I hope that AC orders the A350, I think if AC order Boeing it might also reek of political pressuring in one form or another. I recall reading numerous times that Milton is pushing Ottawa and the Minister of Transport for the "Open Skies Agreement" between Canada and US to be validated (whereby AC could serve the US market with point-to-point service between US cities thereby bypassing ACs hubs in Canada). For the Americans to agree to something like this, I'm sure a Boeing order would help.

/Milan320



I accept bribes ... :-)
User currently offlinePM From Germany, joined Feb 2005, 6962 posts, RR: 63
Reply 18, posted (9 years 7 months 2 weeks 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 16651 times:

Quoting Yyz717 (Reply 15):
I just don't see 8 used RR 333's being of much use to any airline(s) any time quickly.

At the end of 2004 Garuda were looking for three used 333s and expressly asked for RR versions. These eight planes wouldn't be hard to place.

What I find interesting is that the AC order for Airbus (if it goes that way) includes further 333s alongside the 350s. I'd been wondering if the 350 might completely supplant the 330 in sales. Seems not.


User currently offlineYUL332LX From Canada, joined Feb 2004, 820 posts, RR: 1
Reply 19, posted (9 years 7 months 2 weeks 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 16592 times:

Quoting NorCalSF (Reply 4):
Milton was quoted in the WSJ article that the announcement would be made in June. But it could also obviously be sooner.

June = Paris Air Show.

Makes sense.



E volavo, volavo felice più in alto del sole, e ancora più su mentre il mondo pian piano spariva lontano laggiù ...
User currently offlineN60659 From United States of America, joined Mar 2005, 654 posts, RR: 24
Reply 20, posted (9 years 7 months 2 weeks 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 16541 times:

Quoting Aseem (Reply 5):
IMHO! the order seems to be in favour of Boeing as very little is known about A350, which is also slated for delivery 2 years later than B787.



Quoting AC320 (Reply 8):
1) The article mentions 2008 for the 787, but considering the number of orders Boeing secured ahead of Air Canada, any idea when the airline might actually start to take deliveries?

Delivery slots for the 787 are already filled through 2009. If AC is one of the first carriers to order the A350, it would be available to them around 2010, the same time the earliest 787 delivery slot opens up.

Quoting N79969 (Reply 13):
I think RR powered A330s would hold their own in the aftermarket. Maybe a company like Cathay Pacific or a Middle Eastern airline

Here's a scenario. Boeing is in discussion with EK to provide 789s. However delivery slots are not available until 2012 (as currently being mentioned). Could Boeing take ACs RR powered A330s and place them with EK until the 789s become available?



Nec Dextrorsum Nec Sinistrorsum
User currently offlineKrisYYZ From Canada, joined Nov 2004, 1593 posts, RR: 0
Reply 21, posted (9 years 7 months 2 weeks 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 16538 times:

Milton has said on numerous occasions that AC dose not particularly like the A343's. I've also seen A345s at the maintenance area at YYZ a lot, when it should be in the air.

Air Canada Technical services also just landed a huge Boeing 757/767 maintenance deal from United. Which will add to AC technical expertise in Boeing aircraft.

I think that the big question is who will give AC more financial support. Boeing has offered to buy AC's wide body Airbus fleet, which would add a lot of incentive towards a Boeing order. Also crew training, maintenance training and numerous other factors that come along with a new type will have to be added to an Boeing order. Having said that, I still think we will see B777 in AC's colours.

Krisyyz


User currently offlineZvezda From Lithuania, joined Aug 2004, 10511 posts, RR: 64
Reply 22, posted (9 years 7 months 2 weeks 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 16516 times:

Quoting N79969 (Reply 9):
Not that long ago, they were in very, very poor shape and now they are ordering new jets. Glad to hear it but would like to know what occured while my attention was elsewhere.

One of the factors is that passengers now need a visa just to transit the US. About 2/3 of the passengers who used to fly between Europe/Asia and Central/South America on US carriers now fly on AC. This is one seldom mentioned reason why the US legacy carriers are in such bad financial situations. The US gummint could easily bring back this business to the US by repealing their silly rules, but what's more important to bureaucrats? An extra million pax/year for US carriers or additional bureaucratic power?


User currently offlineBoeingBus From United States of America, joined May 2004, 1597 posts, RR: 17
Reply 23, posted (9 years 7 months 2 weeks 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 16506 times:

Quoting Milan320 (Reply 12):
Add to that fact that Airbus could make AC and A350 launch customer - which has additional advantages.

and additional disadvantages... we all know the sacrifices some airlines (Virgin, Singapore, SAA, Thai.. etc..) have gone through getting a newly designed Airbus plane. Sorry, but the truth hurts... Airbus has had a poor record launching new planes. Hence, one of the many reason why Virgin delayed the A380 plans.



Airbus or Boeing - it's all good to me!
User currently offlineUnited Airline From Hong Kong, joined Jan 2001, 9191 posts, RR: 15
Reply 24, posted (9 years 7 months 2 weeks 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 16485 times:

Maybe some B 747 Advanced too? They were interested in a few second hand B 747-400s right?

25 MrComet : I would say Airbus has the advantage only because Boeing would have to buy the A330s. This means they probably have to dump them off reasonably cheap
26 Yyz717 : I agree on this point. Airbus must be worried. Blah blah blah yourself. The ONLY business plan that the creditors accepted was one that shows profit.
27 Post contains images Accargo : The A340-500's have not been spending inordinate amounts of time in Mtce. The on-time dep. #'s for this acft type are within 2% of target. The deal A
28 Sebring : Air Canada Technical services also just landed a huge Boeing 757/767 maintenance deal from United. Which will add to AC technical expertise in Boeing
29 Yyz717 : Well hopefully in addition to A or B, there is a 3rd "do nothing" option. AC seems to be caught in an orgy of new aicraft ordering but there is no un
30 Post contains images Jacobin777 : For some reason, I see Airbus getting this order (just a hunch, and I hope I'm wrong), but it seems Boeing has been too much on a roll...the tide does
31 Cruiser : Boeing has stated publicly (a while back) that they had a number of airlines putting down deposits just so that they could reserve slots. I don't kno
32 Milan320 : I guess I wasn't clear enough, when I meant "advantages" I meant price advantages, etc. /Milan320
33 AC320 : I don't recall Airbus being specifically mentioned in Virgin's statements about delays, all I heard was specific airports would not be 100% ready, no
34 BoeingBus : Airbus and Boeing are going to fight this one out. From reading numerous articles Boeing is no longer taking anything for granted so they are both go
35 Sebring : To yyz717: Blah blah blah yourself. The ONLY business plan that the creditors accepted was one that shows profit. This does not require massive intern
36 Post contains links N60659 : Good point. My statement was a refererence that was made several times: The first two years of production slots for the 787 already are filled with o
37 AC_B777 : If Boeing won the contract, then yes, they would be responsible to dispose of the A333, A343, A345's, not AC. It would not be AC's problem as to how o
38 Starrion : As I understand it the delivery slots are reserved based on the deposits. Boeing has said they have more than 250 of those. They do have 203 announce
39 LifelinerOne : Rubbish, Virgin delayed delivery of their A380's because their new interiors wouldn't be ready in time. They needed more time to invent an exciting i
40 Milan320 : How's that work legally anyway? Isn't there proprietary and confidential information (in terms of software, etc.) that Boeing could use to their adva
41 Cruiser : However, it is impossible for us to know just how many slots there are. How many planes can they work on at one time? I would guess a few because Eve
42 Alitalia744 : if you believe that, I've got some pot of golds to sell you too.
43 LifelinerOne : Maybe because I know some of the work on the Virgin cabins is being done right here at a company in The Netherlands? Cheers!
44 AirFrnt : If you believe that I have a bridge on the Seine I would like to sell you. My gut reaction is that this sales campaign will be make or break for the
45 YUL332LX : Lifeliner's right. It was confirmed again last week in AW. Under the current design freeze plan, airlines must confirm to Airbus the cabin configurat
46 Dimsum : Yea, that's a good point that I've been wondering since day one. I'm an electrical engineer so, personally, I think that the proper safeguards have b
47 CPDC10-30 : they have to convince AC that the A350 will be a successfully plane, not at all like the A330s that they are currently having problems with Everythin
48 YUL332LX : Careful there... most of the 787 is actually designed by Boeing with... a French software, CATIA. Add to that the fact that over 70% of the construct
49 Post contains images PacificWestern : Perhaps former Prime Minister Brian Mulroney could be called in to help solidify a deal with Airbus?
50 Sebring : Everything I've heard from AC is that they are very happy with their A330-300s on the transatlantic routes. Don't forget that this is AC's highest pax
51 Cruiser : Could you elaborate on this point a bit? I was just wondering what their thinking is on this, and it is not meant as a personal challenge.
52 AirbusfanYYZ : I am guessing Sebring is referring to ETOPS restrictions... Cheers, Kaz
53 Cruiser : Isn't the 777 able to fly roughly the same routes as the A340 even when considering ETOPS?
54 Boac707 : Pacific Western; you hit the nail on the head. The politics of Boeing and Airbus will decide this order. Not best prices....The Mighty Chin pocketed m
55 NorCal : Which ever company can whore themselves out better will win
56 Behramjee : Milton in his autobiography clearly states his dislike and disappointment in the performance of the A 340-300 so one shall not be surprised to see tha
57 Galapagapop : Slots are filled but not all are announced, or will never be filled as they are re-fundable deposits just incase AC or some other airline changes the
58 Cruiser : Behramjee, Milton has stated that it will be a winner-take-all situation. Over the long run, I think that moving to one widebody manufacturer will sav
59 AirbusCanada : Actually he is the second biggest shareholder of Air canada throught Cerberus Capital Management
60 Avek00 : The A350 makes for a piss-poor 763 replacement - its pax capacity is considerably higher than the 763, it's significantly heavier, and it will likely
61 Behramjee : Yes I do know that it is expected to be a winner take all situation. Youre right the B 777NGs have better performance characteristics than the A 340N
62 QFA001 : N60659, I might be able to shed some light on this. Boeing plans to produce around 92 B787-8s in 2008-09. AFAIK, all those slots have been filled wit
63 N60659 : I didn't realize I did not finish the rest of my thought in my post. What I was going to say was that 64 orders have been confirmed by Boeing and the
64 LifelinerOne : Thank you! Why is it that everyone is always thinking that there's trouble with the A380... You guys have seen to many X-Files and see every official
65 PM : Does AC's membership of Star mean anything here? LH have gone for the A346, SIA fly the 345 and TG have ordered both. There are also several RR A330 o
66 Lymanm : A potential Star order was also mused about when AC was getting their new RJ deal in place. However, AC was the only party involved in that order.
67 Gearup : Quite right, I guess not knowing much if any about anything does not stop us from having an opinion on it!! Here's mine: it is all about price and th
68 Lemurs : The problem with that hypothetical is: how do you justify the cost of development and launch when your largest launch customer is getting a/c virtual
69 Gearup : Well you can't actually justify it, thats for sure but why I think it is possible is simply because the lead the 787 has over the 350 as regards time
70 Avek00 : And the 787 wins here too. In addition to lower mx costs, AC would avoid having to modify any of its 763-compatible gates and facilities to accept th
71 SNATH : Is this actually true? I understand the B787 and the A350 will have comparable wing span which will be longer than the B767. Tony
72 Post contains images AC7E7 : Give me a break, AC can afford more than you think. They only have 20 or so widebody Airbus airvraft. When can an airline ever afford a $6 billion or
73 ACB777 : If AC were to order the 7E7 and 777, what engines would they select?
74 PM : Historically, they've preferred P&W. But they chose CFM for their A320s and RR for their A330s. On their 343s and 345s, of course, they had no choice
75 Zkojh : i'm thinking it might be a boeing order, too, mainly for the 787 and 777-200/300er aircraft, just like ANZ have gone for in there longhaul fleet renew
76 AC787 : Is an AC order going to for sure come with a few ULH planes such as the 777LR or 345. People always talk of it but has there been official word on tha
77 Bmacleod : The 777-300 is just to big for AC. Isn't that the main reason AC retired its 744s - the load factors just weren't adding up? A 777-200ER would be fan
78 AC7E7 : AC got rid of their 744Cs because they were a heavier aircraft than a regular 744 Combi should be thanks to an extra permanent bulkhead installed due
79 AirbusCanada : AS a lot of you may know Air-Canada will announce a rather large wide-body order in June. So far we don’t’ know who AC going to Pick. But I fund t
80 ZKOJH : (2)Airbus can start delivery (333)in 2006 while Boeing wont’ be able to deliver anything(777ER) before 2007. bit of a puzzle, I don't see the trippl
81 AirbusCanada : According to boeing WEbsite the backlog for 777 is 174 aircraft. And the 332/333 backlog is 228 aircraft. Maybe Airbus can make 330's .
82 777ER : AC are getting rid of their B744 fleet or already have Its been proved time and time again by airlines that operate both the A340 and B777s that the
83 Cruiser : Why would Boeing talk to the Bangladesh government with regards to AC's order? Personally, I am sure that if the 60 plane order hinged on when AC wer
84 PM : True enough but the intent is there for Star members to move ever closer in orders and specification. The ANA/ANZ orders will at least be a factor in
85 N79969 : I believe some of Lufthansa A300-600R came from Emirates. I do not recall where or when I read it. Nonsense. In negotitating an air service treaty, t
86 N79969 : Why wouldn't Boeing want to make some big order announcements at Paris? It is an important event-- industry-wide.
87 YULMRS : It would be like a "road victory" for Boeing to announce a big order at "Le Bourget" so, why not ...
88 N79969 : That is my point exactly.
89 Post contains images Milan320 : Oh well then, I guess the US has never lobbied before to buy American manufacturing in return for "special favours" then. /Milan320
90 AC7E7 : What about used 777? If Boeing wins the order, they could acquire a few used 777 and lend them to AC until AC 777s come off the assembly line. I'm sur
91 Post contains images Bmacleod : I really don't see see how this would indicate an Airbus order. Also, AC stated they were looking at replacing 20 wide-body Airbuses. Why would they
92 PM : They will only replace the Airbuses if they go for Boeing. It seems quite clear.
93 Sebring : As I stated some time ago, the plan is to simplify and grow the widebody fleet no matter how... The Airbus model that most intrigues AC is the 346 hig
94 Yulguy : In an interview in Montreal's "La Presse" on Tuesday (or was in Monday), Milton stated that with regards to the replacement, he had a penchant for the
95 Cruiser : So, is AC planning on replacing the A343's if they decide to go to Airbus? If he stated that he had a liking for the A340, then I would love to see th
96 Post contains links YUL332LX : Robert Milton a indiqué hier un penchant pour l'Airbus 340, le gros-porteur qui offre actuellement la plus longue distance franchissable du monde ..
97 RJ111 : Personally i think a 787 and A346 order would cover both requirements with minimal fuss.
98 Cruiser : As I keep saying: In the long run, it will be cheaper and more cost efficient to have a whole fleet of the same series of plane (777 & 787 are consid
99 Post contains links M27 : Win or loose the aircraft order, Boeing got the flight data contract. http://quote.bloomberg.com/apps/news...=conews&tkr=BA:US&sid=a.oEI3.y4A70
100 RJ111 : I was under the impression he 777 and 787 will have very little in common.
101 SNATH : Whether this is the case or not, AC has declared that this is a winner-takes-all competition. So, even though an order for both the A346 and the B787
102 AirbusfanYYZ : NO. The 343s AND 345s would be replaced by the 346HGW with an Airbus win, 333/343/345 would be replaced by the 773ER/772ER or LR with a Boeing win. T
103 Lemurs : Not picking a fight here, but: Why would they replace the 343 and 345 with the 346HGW across the board? If they really needed that capacity to replac
104 SNATH : I think Kaz intended for the B772s to replace the A330s and the B773s to replace the A343s/A345s. If they go Airbus, they might keep their A330s and
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