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Why Retire The 727?  
User currently offlineHawk44 From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 759 posts, RR: 3
Posted (9 years 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 7342 times:

On my way to work today I saw a Pan Am charter 727 and was wondering why the majority of these birds have been retired?

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Hawk44


Never under estimate the power of US
78 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineJano From Slovakia, joined Jan 2004, 823 posts, RR: 4
Reply 1, posted (9 years 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 7332 times:

3 engines
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.



The Widget Air Line :)
User currently offlineRDUDDJI From Lesotho, joined Jun 2004, 1422 posts, RR: 3
Reply 2, posted (9 years 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 7330 times:

too expensive to operate. The 737 (esp. the NG's) replaced the 727's

Nice fast airplane...but in the end...too expensive



Sometimes we don't realize the good times when we're in them
User currently offlineFlyMIA From United States of America, joined Jun 2001, 7006 posts, RR: 9
Reply 3, posted (9 years 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 7316 times:

I also love the 727 and am so happy that I still get to see them in MIA and FLL on a daily basis just not in DL CO or AA colors. But the reason is because they cost to much to operate and a three man crew.


"It was just four of us on the flight deck, trying to do our job" (Captain Al Haynes)
User currently offlineAeroWesty From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 20322 posts, RR: 63
Reply 4, posted (9 years 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 7316 times:

3 engines, 3 pilots, gas guzzler.

Workhorse for 30+ years, time to move on.



International Homo of Mystery
User currently offline2travel2know From Panama, joined Apr 2005, 3580 posts, RR: 4
Reply 5, posted (9 years 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 7312 times:

B727 questions:
Is it true that from places like LPB CUZ and other high altitude airports a B727 performs better when taking-off than a B737/A320 ?
Could a B727 fly with only its 2 side engines on and the middle reartail engine off?



I don't work for COPA Airlines!
User currently offlineHawk44 From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 759 posts, RR: 3
Reply 6, posted (9 years 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 7310 times:

What year did most airlines pull them off routes?

Hawk44

[Edited 2005-04-15 05:55:52]


Never under estimate the power of US
User currently offlineZvezda From Lithuania, joined Aug 2004, 10511 posts, RR: 64
Reply 7, posted (9 years 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 7285 times:

Quoting Hawk44 (Reply 6):

Was this because of the noise restrictors that had to be put into place?

Even without the hushkits, the B727 is too expensive to operate compared to the B737NG or A320. The difference in operating costs is large enough to pay for the purchase of the new airplane.


User currently offlineHawk44 From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 759 posts, RR: 3
Reply 8, posted (9 years 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 7259 times:

Quoting Zvezda (Reply 7):
Even without the hushkits, the B727 is too expensive to operate compared to the B737NG or A320. The difference in operating costs is large enough to pay for the purchase of the new airplane.

No wonder WN didn't keep them around
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Hawk44



Never under estimate the power of US
User currently offlineMD11LuxuryLinr From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 1385 posts, RR: 15
Reply 9, posted (9 years 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 7259 times:

Like others have said..

yeah, 3 engines.. but were talking about JT8Ds here. Loud and inefficient when compared to the high bypass engines of late. Same reason why NW and Delta are accelerating the retirement of the DC9s and 732s.. Higher fuel prices and less efficient engine technology.

Quoting Hawk44 (Reply 6):
Was this because of the noise restrictors that had to be put into place?

It certainly doesn't help the performance on the engine.

Quoting 2travel2know (Reply 5):
Could a B727 fly with only its 2 side engines on and the middle reartail engine off?

Throttled back to idle maybe.. not off. The windmilling without oil pressure would destroy the engine. The aircraft wasn't designed to cruise on two engines. With an engine out, the max cruising altitude is lessened which means higher drag and even more fuel burned.



Caution wake turbulence, you are following a heavy jet.
User currently offlineJdaniel001 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 10, posted (9 years 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 7191 times:

Quoting Hawk44 (Reply 8):
No wonder WN didn't keep them around

WN only temporarily leased them for route expansion because they couldn't get 737's fast enough.

I loved the 727. I was easy to load and unload and push.


User currently offlineCapt.Fantastic From United States of America, joined Aug 1999, 694 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (9 years 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 7191 times:

727 ... ahhh, Great airplane, great design, sexy look! Wing was designed for shorter runways.

I believe a few crashes in the late 60s were attributed to pilots underestimating the power and flying characteristics of the 727. There was a crash of a United 727 in Salt Lake City and a few others I believe, in which the crew was not familiar enough with this airplane.


User currently offlineN867BX From United States of America, joined Nov 2004, 339 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (9 years 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 7160 times:

Here in MSP we can still fly them when going on vacation. Thank you Champion Air!

User currently offlineJc2354 From United States of America, joined May 2004, 565 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (9 years 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 7120 times:

Didn't FedEx redo the cockpit for 2 man operations? Or, am I off my medicines again?


If not now, then when?
User currently offlineIndy From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 4522 posts, RR: 18
Reply 14, posted (9 years 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 7097 times:

Aren't the jets rated for some many pressurizations as well? Maybe they were reaching their limits. I assume the DC9's that NW owns are headed that way as well for the same reason.


Indy = Indianapolis and not Independence Air
User currently offlineN867BX From United States of America, joined Nov 2004, 339 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (9 years 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 7093 times:

Quoting Jc2354 (Reply 13):
Didn't FedEx redo the cockpit for 2 man operations? Or, am I off my medicines again?

I think you are off your meds, but I'm not absolutely positively about that. Maybe I picked the wrong week to quit drinkin.


User currently offlineSeptember11 From United States of America, joined May 2004, 3623 posts, RR: 21
Reply 16, posted (9 years 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 7076 times:

I am sure there are more & more parked 727s out in the desert


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[Edited 2005-04-15 07:27:38]


Airliners.net of the Future
User currently offlineNosedive From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 17, posted (9 years 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 7075 times:

Quoting Jc2354 (Reply 13):
Didn't FedEx redo the cockpit for 2 man operations? Or, am I off my medicines again?

Wrong 3 Holer

Quoting Indy (Reply 14):
Aren't the jets rated for some many pressurizations as well? Maybe they were reaching their limits. I assume the DC9's that NW owns are headed that way as well for the same reason.

I doubt the DC-9's are headed out anytime soon. Some yes, massive retirement no.


User currently offlineJacobin777 From United States of America, joined Sep 2004, 14968 posts, RR: 60
Reply 18, posted (9 years 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 7062 times:

Used fly on ATA 727s from MDW-LGA back in the 90's (back when MDW was considered a "trashy airport" and ATA was considered "American Trash Air")....they were fun to be on!!


"Up the Irons!"
User currently offlineBeckaru From United States of America, joined Dec 1999, 138 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (9 years 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 7024 times:

My Dad's cousin is a retired captain from AA. (Retired in 1990.) He flew 727s, 707s, and DC-10s. I talked to him about the 727s being retired and he said it was a workhorse and a nice bird, but really isn't as efficient as the more modern craft.

User currently offlineHAWK21M From India, joined Jan 2001, 31573 posts, RR: 57
Reply 20, posted (9 years 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 6989 times:

Economically Difficult to Maintain.
regds
MEL



Think of the brighter side!
User currently offlineApodino From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 4124 posts, RR: 6
Reply 21, posted (9 years 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 6881 times:

You can fly a 727 engine out, but only to ferry it to a maintenance base. I had to do one about 7 years ago. No big deal.

User currently offlineSpeedbird128 From Pitcairn Islands, joined Oct 2003, 1648 posts, RR: 2
Reply 22, posted (9 years 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 6824 times:

Hi

I once had a B727-200 (ZS-NWA) fly from PLZ-JNB on two engines (1&3) as a ferry flight due to a rather large bird being roasted during the landing on arrival.

The B722 is not known for it's good climb performance, and on two engines you can just imagine  Smile.

BAW128



A306, A313, A319, A320, A321, A332, A343, A345, A346 A388, AC90, B06, B722, B732, B733, B735, B738, B744, B762, B772, B7
User currently offlinePSU.DTW.SCE From United States of America, joined Jan 2002, 7343 posts, RR: 28
Reply 23, posted (9 years 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 6808 times:

727's were retired because the of having 3 engines, the need for 3 crew members, inabilitly to fly Trans-Cons, directly competing with the A320 & 737NG's, fuel burn rates, increasing maintenance costs, and the fact they were simply getting old.

The downturn in traffic post-9/11 is primarily what accelerated their retirement as airlines looked to shed excess capacity, aircraft, and cut costs. In the United States here is their retirement dates:

US: 2000
UA: Oct/Nov 2001
AA: April 2002
NW: Jan 2003
DL: April 2003

The NW DC-9's will not have the same fate because of the fact the fly with a 2 person cockpit crew, don't yet have an ideal direct replacement, NW's cost of ownership, the way NW utilizes them and the routes they are flown on, and the fact they are a heck of lot more durable than the 727's. NW invested a significant about of money to refurbish the DC-9 fleet in the late 90's.


User currently offlineNWA1978 From United States of America, joined Dec 2004, 66 posts, RR: 0
Reply 24, posted (9 years 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 6782 times:

Quoting Jc2354 (Reply 13):
Didn't FedEx redo the cockpit for 2 man operations? Or, am I off my medicines again?

I believe that was ups. They also replaced the engines. so the arguement of the 727 not being fuel efficient is not valid any longer. When you compare the cost of a new plane (can anyone say $40MM?) to the cost of a re-engine and 2 man cockpit (a.k.a. glass) and the fact most of these birds were owned and paid for, well you get the point. It could be done for the same reason as NWA's dc9's. They are paid for. So any additional upkeep cost or cost of fuel is outweighed by the fact they are owned and paid for.


25 Orion737 : The 727 was largley shunned by British airlines. Only Dan Air and laterly Sabre operated them. I loved the 727 and many were prematurley retired. The
26 NWA1978 : Thats the problem with us, we all love the rumble of the 727 at full thrust! Although the people who choose to live next to the airports want to comp
27 Orion737 : I can tell you the estate agent wouldnt have told them about the noise. They would have to be pretty thick though to not realise that living near an a
28 Skibum9 : While in the 727 sim, I had to fly it with a two engine failure after take off. So that could be done as well, however you weren't going anywhere but
29 PHLBOS : US' 727s after 1995 were restricted to Shuttle service duty. One needs to keep in mind that the last 727 rolled out production 21 years ago. Fuel pri
30 PHLBOS : Actually, NW recently announced that it was accelerating the retirement of some more of its DC-9s due to the higher fuel prices making the type too e
31 DAYflyer : I believe it was originally touted as the replacement for the 707, not 727.
32 PHLBOS : In all likelihood, it was probably touted as a replacement for both the 707 and 727.
33 Biggles : One other thing..RVSM certification. Being restricted to FL280 is very fuel inefficient and the cost of upgraded avionics and certification isn't chea
34 Post contains images SA006 : Nationwide Airlines of South AFrica ( CE ) still operate 4 727-200's (ZS-OZP , ZS-OZR , ZS-ODO , ZS-OOO) and 1 727-100 (727-95 ZS-NYY). I have flown O
35 Post contains links and images SATL382G : I think UPS disagrees.... View Large View MediumPhoto © Derek Hellmann
36 N1120A : Of course. It has amazing take off performance. Hence, the 757's performace. In the US, most airlines retired their newest 722s soon after 9/11 Like
37 Tockeyhockey : your use of the word "was" is confusing me. you mean "is", right?
38 PanAmDC10 : I wonder if the 727 would be able to use the engines that are on the 717, they would be much more fuel efficient. Or would they be too big to fit the
39 FX1816 : Quoting SATL382G (Reply 35): I think UPS disagrees.... Those are mostly 100s from what I could tell. They still have a great deal of -200s. Also, thei
40 Stirling : Midway is a lot better now than it was 10 years ago...
41 Ckfred : The 757 was originally designed to be the 727 replacement, while the 767 was supposed to replace the 707. EA talked Boeing into stretching the 757, so
42 Post contains images Accidentally : One of my greatest friends is a 757/767 capt. He flew every seat in the 727 and went directly to captain on the 7-5 in '96. He's told me a few times t
43 N1120A : Not only would they be too big for the center housing, latching them on to the side would require structure adjustments Thanks for that. I brainfarte
44 DC3CV3407AC727 : We happy few at ChampionAir plan on keeping the classic Boeing rocket on line at least thru '06, allegedly A320s are on the horizon. For the record th
45 MD80Nut : I read an article many years ago where it said the 757 was originally called the 727-300X during the design phase. It was going to be a stretched 727-
46 Md88captain : Awesome airplane! But it is now a relic. It was built like a tank, but that makes it heavy. Its engines are inefficient. The airframes are very old, w
47 Post contains images IGUY : Cost of operation killed them. So loud and depending on the runway they could set off car alarms in the parking lot @ ISP
48 Post contains images Lrgt : Why so soon??? ...actually DL is keeping the 737-200's longer than they expected. No, the 727 as originally stated. Yes, its REPLACEMENT was develope
49 Cruiser : I think you need to get your facts straight. In some situations, it IS cost effective. Donald Trump's 727 is an example. It sits around most of the t
50 N1120A : Hey, they were asking a question, not saying that is what should have been done Sounds like the pot calling the kettle black. When I missed that, I t
51 Lrgt : They didn't...that was the L1011
52 Post contains images N1120A : Wanna bet?
53 MD11LuxuryLinr : Unless something has changed in the last few weeks, I disagree. See that.. I spend less time on A.net and I miss an important announcement? Good news
54 EALSYS1 : The L1011 was the WhisperLINER. Others were in fact "WhisperJets". Sam
55 Jafa39 : You are a crazy bugger Orion, made me laugh until it hurt!!!
56 N1120A : What? The 787s will replace them? I don't think so.
57 Post contains links and images MD11LuxuryLinr : Yeah, sure. That's what I meant. http://www.airliners.net/discussions...eral_aviation/read.main/2010721/4/ Interesting thread.. Any change to NW's pl
58 FlyMIA : I saw a Pan Am 727 takeoff from MIA today. I was awesome! Like going back in time for a little bit.
59 UA772IAD : As stated, they have 3 engines which isn't cost effective, not to mention equipment up front that is 15+ years old and requires a flight engineer (3rd
60 Delta767300ER : I loved the 727! I am grateful to have flown on it 5 times, all with Delta. My last Boeing 727 flight was in 7/02 on Delta Air Lines from CVG-ATL. The
61 Nwa1978 : So you are saying anything with three engines is not cost effective? Boy ups & fedex will be pissed when they find this out! Going by that we should
62 UAcsOKC : Nope. All of UPS 727-100's were upgraded for new avionics, RR Tay Engines, and glass cockpits, but were still a 3 man crewed plane.
63 NWA1978 : My badd, you are correct. But the two man crew can be done (md-10)
64 UAcsOKC : Sure, but why do it on an unecenomical gas guzzler (even with the Tay's) when you can just buy newer, more economical planes? Or perhaps just use the
65 NWA1978 : Do you know how much fuel you can buy with $40MM? About $40MM worth! Not trying to get into a pissin match but I just dont buy the fuel bit. Are they
66 Post contains images GalvanAir777 : Maybe the people living around the airport  would care [Edited 2005-04-16 03:49:32]
67 Post contains images UAcsOKC : It's not a pissin match, just a good discussion. UPS has own the -100s for a while, upgraded them to QF's in the '90s, and is ready to move on. Did th
68 CORULEZ05 : Because it is an old airplane and there is newer and much better technology now available in new planes. Reason why I think the DC-10 should also be a
69 JpetekYXMD80 : misread, nevermind, delete please[Edited 2005-04-16 03:56:22]
70 Post contains images TedTAce : Most of my first flights were on 72's and I thought they were way cool. One of my last flights was (6?!?! years ago   . I remember the landing wel
71 UA772IAD : Well UPS and FedEx don't need to be as concerned about the most economical aircraft, since they will always have business. We have seen alot fo scrap
72 Aleksandar : I love Boeing classic jets, both 707 and 727, atlough I flew more on 727s. It provide a great flying experience. I heard that the 727 is not easiest j
73 N1120A : They are not cost effective in so much as fuel is the largest component of cost. Burning 3.5 more liters per kilometer of fuel than similar sized air
74 Burnsie28 : I could have sworn that I saw them in BA colors They are parking a few higher timed jets, though, other then the ones they announced, the rest will b
75 ContnlEliteCMH : Actually, I prefer Midway to O'Hell. I think it's quite nice.
76 Post contains images N1120A : Tridents my dear Burnsie, Tridents. Actually, there are 727s in BA colors, but they fly for Comair in South Africa (BA's partner there). Also, they d
77 DarthRandall : The other day, I was surprised to find a 727 charter flight operated by Ryan Air I believe for a customer who was flying between.....was it STL-MCI? S
78 Propulsion : Cost.
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