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Way To Save USA Major Carriers  
User currently offlineRemymartin11 From United States of America, joined Aug 2004, 67 posts, RR: 2
Posted (9 years 3 months 2 weeks 1 day ago) and read 6136 times:

With US Major Airlines flowing red ink (or in bankruptcy), it is obvious there is only one solution. END FREQUENT FLYER PROGRAMS. FF miles just may be the largest "currency" in the world and the airlines now have more than they ever bargained for with this "affinity" program. What has resulted is a culture of "upgrades", "beating the system" and hitting the airlines for a ton of non-rev seats, regardless of how much they try to keep bumping up the mileage requirements.

We need to get back to the golden age of travel. You want to fly first class - you pay for it - no other way. With technological advances, we now have direct TV and in flight email -plenty to keep all passengers happy. AA, UA....you need to take a page from Song/Jet Blue.

The US carriers should follow the Delta Song/Jet Blue Model. Great service, great food and great amenities. Have a first class cabin that gives 2x2 seating with 45 pitch and make it so the only way you get up there is TO PAY FOR IT.....no more upgrades, free tickets....NADA.

Let's see what carrier has the balls to say enough is enough - our FF program is history.

106 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineJdaniel001 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 1, posted (9 years 3 months 2 weeks 1 day ago) and read 6117 times:

Ending FF programs will never happen. Like on the Indy thread, someone said that it's a free market. Anything to produce loyalty for a brand is a necessary evil as far as FF programs go. I hate them. It use to be so easy to non-rev in First. Now I can't get a seat to save my life. And I am spoiled airline person.

User currently offlineDeltaflyertoo From United States of America, joined Nov 2000, 1642 posts, RR: 1
Reply 2, posted (9 years 3 months 2 weeks 1 day ago) and read 6107 times:

Interesting argument...

Could be esp. interesting for hub carriers who dominate nonstop service in cities like Houston, Atlanta, Dallas and Philedelphia, to name a few...would pax be willing to stick w/ that carrier without a FF for the sake of convience? Maybe. I think like 90% of all FFs are in programs where the hub city dominates. I.E. you wouldn't find many AAdvantage members in the Houston area or One Pass members in Atlanta. The nonstop convience came first then the FF.

Where doing away w/ FF would have major impact on revenue is on these INt'l codeshares. Right now there is absolutely no reason for US consumers to choose one Int'l carrier over the other when going to Europe other than for which alliance they are in and what FF program that airline has that is in line with the consumers.


User currently offlineAtomother From United States of America, joined May 1999, 440 posts, RR: 4
Reply 3, posted (9 years 3 months 2 weeks 1 day ago) and read 6102 times:

Maybe the airlines should just raise prices on tickets. No one ever mentions that. It would be nice for the race to the bottom to turn into the race to the top.

User currently offlineRemymartin11 From United States of America, joined Aug 2004, 67 posts, RR: 2
Reply 4, posted (9 years 3 months 2 weeks 1 day ago) and read 6100 times:

Non Rev in first is a slap in the face to travelers paying full fare first.....I flew AA JFK-LAX-JFK recently in first and for $3K, I expected some peace and quiet. No way - the sticker crowd in business, all laden with their tumi bags and ripped jeans with Ipods come shuffling on before the door closes.......guarantee most didnt pay more tha $1000 for their tickets......total joke to people that still pay to fly in comfort

User currently offlineRemymartin11 From United States of America, joined Aug 2004, 67 posts, RR: 2
Reply 5, posted (9 years 3 months 2 weeks 1 day ago) and read 6085 times:

the airlines dont need LOYALTY....they have virtual monopoly. with more and more people flying, its not like they are "fighting" for pax like they were before deregulation. people will continue to pay for convenience and comfort. FF just puts the airlines behind the 8 ball even further. End it.

User currently offlinePlaneSmart From New Zealand, joined Dec 2004, 871 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (9 years 3 months 2 weeks 1 day ago) and read 6078 times:

No carrier has the balls to do that.

A subsidiary of the organisation I work for undertakes industry-wide research, and more specific research for various airline clubs and individual airlines.

Obviously Chinese walls apply in terms of information flow in both directions, but fair to say most airlines would like to scale back (and many have) frequent flyer benefits, just as most want to do the same for airline staff benefits (especially those of other airlines).

Alternative is to shrink the size of first and business class, so available seats more closely match the number of paying customers, the tactic many in the industry are adopting.

In the USA, frequent flyer liability is an impediment to mergers and acquisitions. Now more attractive to fold the airline and acquire selected assets (name, etc), rather than as a going concern.


User currently offlineSTLGph From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 9302 posts, RR: 25
Reply 7, posted (9 years 3 months 2 weeks 1 day ago) and read 6073 times:

Quoting Atomother (Reply 3):
Maybe the airlines should just raise prices on tickets. No one ever mentions that. It would be nice for the race to the bottom to turn into the race to the top.

sure. raise prices. pretty soon, people won't fly. then what?

Quoting Remymartin11 (Reply 4):
total joke to people that still pay to fly in comfort

maybe they find comfort in ripped jeans and in being able to have their ipod.


I agree with Jdaniel. It's a free market and everyone is after brand loyalty. Why do you think almost every airline with a frequent flyer program has a credit card allowing you to earn points/miles? Same with hotels. Nordstrom. Target. Starbucks. General Motors. Borders.

Frequent flyer programs allow airlines that don't have huge or huge operations in cities to build a clientele there, and then perhaps come in later and take advantage of it and profit on it. Like Northwest in Milwaukee and Indianapolis. Boom, perfect example. In St. Louis, we have American with a bastard hub here and Southwest with a comfy operation here, but I sure do see a lot of people out and about with Delta SkyMiles cards and Northwest World Perks credit cards taking advantage of them.



Eternal darkness we all should dread. It's hard to party when you're dead.
User currently offlineFalcon84 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 8, posted (9 years 3 months 2 weeks 1 day ago) and read 6065 times:

Quoting Remymartin11 (Reply 4):
Non Rev in first is a slap in the face to travelers paying full fare first.....

If you're talking about airline employee non-revving, why is it a slap in the face at anyone? If there are empty seats, and no one qualifies for an upgrade, why, as an employee of said carrier, should I NOT be entitled to a f/c seat? To me, after all the years I've put in with the company, it's a nice perk, if it's available. I don't see it as anything but jealousy from those who don't work for a carrier.


User currently offlineRemymartin11 From United States of America, joined Aug 2004, 67 posts, RR: 2
Reply 9, posted (9 years 3 months 2 weeks 1 day ago) and read 6062 times:

STLGPH - If your product is outstanding, you dont need any loyalty or affinity programs to get or keep customers. Product is hero. With hundreds of ways to accrue miles, it is absolutely out of hand. All it does is undercut profitability. Get 500 miles for renting from Hertz - what a joke. Get 1000 miles for buying a new car? C'mon....end FF and trade up your product or service......do it right, and they will come. Why is Satellite Radio doing so well - it's a great service and it proves people WILL PAY for quality and service

User currently offlineJdaniel001 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 10, posted (9 years 3 months 2 weeks 1 day ago) and read 6061 times:

Quoting Remymartin11 (Reply 4):
Non Rev in first is a slap in the face to travelers paying full fare first.....I flew AA JFK-LAX-JFK recently in first and for $3K, I expected some peace and quiet. No way - the sticker crowd in business, all laden with their tumi bags and ripped jeans with Ipods come shuffling on before the door closes.......guarantee most didnt pay more tha $1000 for their tickets......total joke to people that still pay to fly in comfort

Well times have definitely changed. Non-revs use to be required to wear a coat and tie while traveling. Now that's not the case. DH even allows employees to wear shorts. But also recognize the fact that traveling as an employee used to be taken as a sacred privilege, not a right. But I think the airlines are not protecting first as much as they use to either. They only care about appeasing the traveler. When my wife and I flew to AUA on AA for our honeymoon, I bought tickets and used miles to upgrade to First. It wasn't cheap either. But the entire trip from JFK to AUA, we had a screaming baby in first right in front of us. Then, to make it worse the toddler traveling with the same family started to barf while everyone was trying to eat dinner. That's disgusting.


User currently offlineBond007 From United States of America, joined Mar 2005, 5397 posts, RR: 8
Reply 11, posted (9 years 3 months 2 weeks 1 day ago) and read 6059 times:

Well, I'd agree if FF was the only problem that the airlines face.

Most airlines are in trouble because of basic bad business practice. Any other companies that are run as inefficiently as most of the airlines would have been bankrupt 20 years ago. They get free government bail outs and still continue to have huge overheads and lose money.

Learn for the guys who ARE making money, like Southwest. One of things they can get rid of is the ridiculously complicated pricing programs - god knows how much money it takes to run a business where every person on the flight pays a different price!

As for frequent flyer upgrades etc., the truth is, apart from International flights perhaps, fewer and fewer people do pay for First/Business Class anyway. There is a thin line between paying full first class fare on a major airline, and chartering your own plane to do the trip. Most of the people in First/business on domestic flights are business guys, who don't personally pay for the ticket anyway, and/or are upgraded coz they fly every week.

Speaking as somebody who does fly every week - I do make my decision of airline partly based upon which airline I have status with, and whether I might get upgraded. I know many people who do this. I still pay for my coach ticket, but might decide to fly AA just coz of sitting up front.

Don't forget that upgrades always come after fare paying pax in First - so if they sold the seats, there wouldn't be any upgrades.

....Oh, and if you fly domestic US, you see less and less rows of First Class anyway - down to 2 rows (8 seats) in many.

Run an airline (or any other) business properly and it'll make money.

rgds,

Jimbo.



I'd rather be on the ground wishing I was in the air, than in the air wishing I was on the ground!
User currently offlineRemymartin11 From United States of America, joined Aug 2004, 67 posts, RR: 2
Reply 12, posted (9 years 3 months 2 weeks 1 day ago) and read 6052 times:

Airline employee is one thing Falcon...I agree they should get good treatment. However, one time in LIM on AA back to DFW, I was the only person in first. The next thing I know, I've got 3 AA FA's heading back to ORD coming up into first before the door closes (with plenty of seats in coach). Dont demean your premium product to those that pay for it.

User currently offlineRemymartin11 From United States of America, joined Aug 2004, 67 posts, RR: 2
Reply 13, posted (9 years 3 months 2 weeks 1 day ago) and read 6027 times:

JDaniel - Amen brother. No one dresses to travel anymore. "Catch me if you can" was a great movie and showed the glory age of travel. The worst things to ever happen to fashion in the US - the blue jean, the running shoe and the warm up suit.

The old saying....."No one ever lost money UNDERESTIMATING the taste level of the American consumer".

We've become a nation of wal mart fanny packers.......wish we were a little more Cary Grant and Katherine Hepburn. Even if you're middle class, you can still look presentable.


User currently offlineBond007 From United States of America, joined Mar 2005, 5397 posts, RR: 8
Reply 14, posted (9 years 3 months 2 weeks 1 day ago) and read 6016 times:

Quoting Remymartin11 (Reply 4):
Non Rev in first is a slap in the face to travelers paying full fare first.....I flew AA JFK-LAX-JFK recently in first and for $3K, I expected some peace and quiet. No way - the sticker crowd in business, all laden with their tumi bags and ripped jeans with Ipods come shuffling on before the door closes.......guarantee most didnt pay more tha $1000 for their tickets......total joke to people that still pay to fly in comfort

Well....I think you're stereotyping those with money here!
I don't necessarily disagree, but I'm sure there are plenty of people paying for First class that wear ripped jeans, talk on the cellphone, and get drunk....just as much as FF's who get upgraded.

...and sure, screaming babies are bad, but the mother could just have easily have paid for the ticket. Mothers who pay for First Class don't automatically have quiet children!

rgds,

Jim



I'd rather be on the ground wishing I was in the air, than in the air wishing I was on the ground!
User currently offlineLeskova From Germany, joined Oct 2003, 6075 posts, RR: 70
Reply 15, posted (9 years 3 months 2 weeks 1 day ago) and read 6014 times:

Quoting Remymartin11 (Reply 12):
Dont demean your premium product to those that pay for it.

How does giving your employees a benefit "demean your premium product"? Does the fact that non-revvers pay small amounts for seats in Economy also "demean the standard product"?

So what if there were plenty of seats open in the back - as you said yourself, you were the only person in First: if your enjoyment of a flight is dependant on you being the only one in the cabin, you really should consider a business jet!

And the idea of scrapping frequent flyer programs to save the airlines... are you serious? That's, often enough, one of the few reasons that some customers are loyal to any airline: scrap those, and people will do nothing but chose their flights according to who has the lowest fare, resulting in even less money coming in to the airlines.

I don't really see how that would improve the situation...

Regards,
Frank



Smile - it confuses people!
User currently offlineSTLGph From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 9302 posts, RR: 25
Reply 16, posted (9 years 3 months 2 weeks 1 day ago) and read 6001 times:

Quoting Remymartin11 (Reply 9):
STLGPH - If your product is outstanding, you dont need any loyalty or affinity programs to get or keep customers. Product is hero

It's nothing to do with the product. It's an incentive to keep you coming back to get reward. Everyone loves rewards and treats. In the first grade, if everyone behaved for the week, they got an extra half hour on the playground on Friday during recess. If you are playing with your kitty cat and "good kitty" plays well, kitty gets a reward treat. Same with a dog.

Bob's Bedroom Fun Store and Wilma's Vibrator Stop could be located right next door to each other, and they might sell the same vibrating phallicle at the same price, but if Wilma's got a "get a punch for each one bought and get a free one after ten punches" promotions going on, you get Wilma's going to be getting a lot more business than Bob.


There is nothing wrong with the flight attendants coming up and sitting in first class. They work for the company. If their superiors or their colleagues are going to let them sit in first, then so be it. If it's something the company allows then so be it. It's no different than restaurant managers or chefs who get free meals during their time on the job. Jobs come with perks and often times these have been negotiated as part of the general employment. If your job doesn't pay you enough so you can't buy out the entire first class section to have it all for yourself, then you didn't negotiate enough, yourself.



Eternal darkness we all should dread. It's hard to party when you're dead.
User currently offlineBond007 From United States of America, joined Mar 2005, 5397 posts, RR: 8
Reply 17, posted (9 years 3 months 2 weeks 1 day ago) and read 5994 times:

Learn a lesson here from Southwest about whether FF programs work.

Made a profit every year.....8 roundtrip flights and you get a free roundtrip ticket.

Probably one of the better reward programs if you like Southwest.

Jimbo



I'd rather be on the ground wishing I was in the air, than in the air wishing I was on the ground!
User currently offlineAvek00 From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 4336 posts, RR: 19
Reply 18, posted (9 years 3 months 2 weeks 1 day ago) and read 5985 times:

Quoting Remymartin11 (Reply 9):
If your product is outstanding, you dont need any loyalty or affinity programs to get or keep customers.

Tell that SQ, CX, NH, EK, or even WN - travelers often DO have a choice of airlines, and FFPs are one way to incentivize a customer to choose between airlines, especially if the carriers are similarly situated wrt sked, price, and service.



Live life to the fullest.
User currently offlinePlaneSmart From New Zealand, joined Dec 2004, 871 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (9 years 3 months 2 weeks 23 hours ago) and read 5944 times:

As I've mentioned on another thread, if you look at the average revenue per sqm of floor space allocated to first, business and economy, many airlines operate flights where they earn less from first than business, and quite a few earn less from business than economy.

While gross revenue isn't everything, because for example less densely packed seating in first means fewer passengers and baggage, so lower kg's per sqm, it can be offset by other costs. For example, many businesses operate accounts, and fly before they pay, in contrast to private economy passengers who pay often well before they fly.


User currently offlineGigneil From United States of America, joined Nov 2002, 16347 posts, RR: 85
Reply 20, posted (9 years 3 months 2 weeks 23 hours ago) and read 5938 times:

Quoting Remymartin11 (Reply 9):
WILL PAY for quality and service

The reality is, no they won't.

N


User currently offlineJdaniel001 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 21, posted (9 years 3 months 2 weeks 23 hours ago) and read 5904 times:

So why is Midwest surviving? I think you give people who travel for a living a choice, they would gladly pay a premium for a separate cabin, bigger seats, something to eat and to drink. I mean these people TRAVEL for a living. They live out of a suitcase for days in a row. Unlike the pleasure traveler who needs to pay for a family of 4 to go on vacation, rental car, hotel, food, etc. They will always fly the cheap way and they don't care if they don't get squat as long as it's an affordable fare. The only reason people use there miles to upgrade the family is most likely to show off. "Hey I spend 10 hours a week on airplanes and here is where I sit. blahblahblah" For years I was told that DL16/17 DFW-HNL was a money loser because it was all FF members redeeming miles. The only reason that Legend EVER flew to LAS was to have one city on the map that would entice FF members to join and use LAS as a redemption flight. Airlines need FF programs and First Class for the business travelers who travel for a living. Let everyone else fly WN or some other LCC.

User currently offlineANCFlyer From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 22, posted (9 years 3 months 2 weeks 23 hours ago) and read 5905 times:

Quoting Remymartin11 (Reply 12):
Airline employee is one thing Falcon...I agree they should get good treatment. However, one time in LIM on AA back to DFW, I was the only person in first. The next thing I know, I've got 3 AA FA's heading back to ORD coming up into first before the door closes (with plenty of seats in coach). Dont demean your premium product to those that pay for it.

It's not the non-revving airline employee that usually leaves me bitter when I fly . . . and I fly in F . . . it's the guy with the holey jeans, Grateful Dead T-Shirt and Fuck You Hat they stick next to me. I believe that's where you're point is going.

I'm quite comfortable, and prefer, an airline employee non-revving (or otherwise) in F. They are usually (99.9% of the time), well dressed and well mannered. It is after all still their carrier they are representing usually. But airlines will throw any meatball in F that has the appropriate miles or status. I have been called arrogant about this. I have been called a lot of things about this, and naturally, I don't care. I don't want the nasty asshole that needs a bath and shave wearing the wife-beater sitting in F next to me and propping his nasty ass unsocked feet on the bulkhead for me to look at for the thext two, three, four hours. And that's regardless of whether I paid for F or upgraded to F.

There was a thread a long time back relating to dress codes in F . . . we won't get in to that now.

I've never had a problem upgrading on CO or US, and on the very rare occasion I fly UA or DL I buy that. I don't care who the carrier puts in the front cabin with me so long as they respect me space, my nostrils and my vision and act like they have a modicum of common sense.

That said, I'd be glad to pay the price for premium service IF it is true premium service. The ONLY, repeat, ONLY US Carrier coming remotely close today on domestic flights is CO.

[Edited 2005-04-17 01:15:51]

User currently offlinePlaneSmart From New Zealand, joined Dec 2004, 871 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (9 years 3 months 2 weeks 23 hours ago) and read 5883 times:

ANCFlyer

I agree 100%.

Don't have recent experience with CO, but in general, my experience flying in the USA versus other parts of the World, except certain Eastern European countries, is that USA airlines don't really measure up in biz and first class.


User currently offlineJdaniel001 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 24, posted (9 years 3 months 2 weeks 23 hours ago) and read 5884 times:

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 22):
The ONLY, repeat, ONLY US Carrier coming remotely close today on domestic flights is CO.

Really? What makes them so different? I haven't flown CO in F since the early 90's. It is was only IAH-DFW.


25 UAL Bagsmasher : Easy answer to this one...re-regulate.
26 Post contains images ANCFlyer : I find the entire package to be superior . . . from Reservation, automatic upgrades for elite, checkin, luggage handling, flight, cabin service, clea
27 LTBEWR : Already many airlines have over the years made adjustments in their FF plans. Those changes include: Raising the number of miles for a flight like fro
28 Tango-Bravo : You have correctly identified what is by far and away the U.S. legacy airlines' leading nemesis. Current fuel prices are a non-factor (to legacy loss
29 Post contains images Tango-Bravo : ...plus bonus miles for using the restroom in a participating restaurant or hotel? Maybe not (yet anyway). It is however a metaphor that a co-worker
30 Remymartin11 : Tango Bravo: Amen brother......you got it
31 777STL : And yet people have proven time and time again that they'll go for the cheaper price rather than the superior product. Look at what AA did with MRTC,
32 Post contains images Boeing73G : You know, I really have to agree with you. The employees HAVE to be well dressed/mannered to make the company look good! But saying that "airlines wi
33 Jdaniel001 : Who says....they are in the business to make money. And by adding the seats back, it lowered their CASM. You would have done the same thing. And nobo
34 COfaninBOS : I figure I must apologize. I pay for first out of pocket on a majority of my flights. I also have the tendency to wear Gap blue jeans, Brooks jogging
35 GoCOgo : Have you tried to book travel for yourself recently? Some routes there is a monopoly, but many others there is too much competition. Most travellers
36 Jetdeltamsy : while i don't think they'll disappear, i think we are in store for a major overhaul of how awards are earned. i think in the near future that rewards
37 Jdaniel001 : Now we're cooking with gas!! Why didn't they think of that earlier. That's is an interesting concept. I wonder if anyone has started that yet?
38 Christao17 : Abolishing FF programs might be a tad extreme: brand loyalty is valuable to a business. I've remained loyal to UA and Star Alliance even as I'm moved
39 777STL : Like I said, they did it to increase their product. It didn't produce the results that were desired so it was axed. I believe the demise of MRTC was
40 Aa757first : How did they demean the product? Midwest is doing just that. Surviving. They just fired all of their ramp workers and all of the MD-80 fleet is in th
41 UsAirways16bwi : ways to save the majors: - get rid of all LCC's - lower fuel prices
42 N844AA : Actually, a good rule for the service industry would be to treat everyone with respect, period. But that's neither here nor there. To address the ori
43 Panaman : And looking towards the future now... Primaris: Dead
44 N200WN : For those that may not remember, there were two interesting books published in the mid 90's about the airline industry, and both cover Frequent Flyer
45 N844AA : I really, really enjoyed this book, and I would recommend it to anyone interested enough in the industry to be browsing these forums. Something I too
46 EA CO AS : Learn for the guys who ARE making money, like Southwest. One of things they can get rid of is the ridiculously complicated pricing programs - god know
47 Panamair : Some airlines have already tried that...remember Delta's attempts to award only 0.5XMQMs (elite qualifying miles) to the lowest fare categories and 1
48 Jdaniel001 : Not for nothing Aa757first, but your are incorrect on this. The MD-80's are the LCC arm of Midwest. Midwest did that and is contracting out their ram
49 Avek00 : OK, it's time to finally cut the BS that has become this thread: 1. Frequent-flyer programs are PROFIT CENTERS for the USA legacy carriers. Airlines m
50 Reggaebird : I am a very frequent business flyer who lives in Boston, which is not a major hub city. I have a good selection of airlines to choose from when I trav
51 Post contains images Jdaniel001 : Don't let this play into your traveling decisions please. Unless you pay for your tickets by cash or check. If you use a credit card and the carrier
52 Post contains images Bond007 : Sorry, bud, I have to disagree and you obviously have little idea of the differences in AA pricing rules vs WN. You cannot book Southwest flights via
53 Bond007 : Sorry, have to disagree again. Most of the guys with These "pretty little cards embossed with their names" are business people who rarely shop around
54 CTHEWORLD : Non-rev employees, on the reputable carriers, are required to wear "business clothing" in First Class, no jeans, no tennis shows, shirts must have co
55 727EMflyer : Remymartin11 reminds me of the guy(s) in this forum who like to cry about coach pax using the first class lav. Guess what, you are not holier than tho
56 Jdaniel001 : 727EMflyer...what? Sorry it went over my head.
57 Nrcnyc : I've never posted here before, but I could not resist from this one. You can not compare a low cost carrier to a legacy carrier. They have completely
58 CTHEWORLD : 727EMflyer....the only flaw in your logic is that the profit off of one super elite flyer is the same as 20 deeply discounted. Sell 1 ticket r/t SFO-L
59 727EMflyer : I'm just saying that these self important first class fare payers and elites don't seem to realize that when they are gone, the masses will still be b
60 Jdaniel001 : Nrcnyc...you could not be more correct. Those classes are paying off my friend. That is exactly right. Two seperate business models. I glad someone ca
61 727EMflyer : Two seperate business models, yes. And which one seems more successful? The one that eats chips.
62 BNANative : Some will but who is going to fill all those other seats? First class on the Titanic was really snazzy but most of the folks on board were in steerag
63 Ckfred : Trying to end FF programs is like the auto industry trying to end rebates. People now expect them, and the first airline to do it will be punished. I
64 AC787 : FF programs are profitable for the airlines... I don't understand where this notion of them being very bad came from. Looking at Air Canada as an exam
65 SATX : It doesn't take a "keen eye" to avoid paying full fare. That's like saying it takes a keen eye to fly from JFK to LAX instead of renting a limo. If y
66 Tango-Bravo : Inasmuch as I see a contradiction here, what is your point? "First class fare payers" definitely matter to an airline -- if they have them and can re
67 KarlB737 : The answer I thought of when I saw your question was just one. When we start drilling for oil in Alaska and we will because of what is happening now w
68 EA CO AS : Sorry, have to disagree again. Most of the guys with These "pretty little cards embossed with their names" are business people who rarely shop around
69 Nrcnyc : Dear 727EMflyer, I could have been clearer about why the two models cant be compared and why UA or AA cann't simply switch all the way to a LCC model.
70 SATX : We have been drilling for and pumping oil in Alaska for decades. There's nothing new about that. The only new part is that a couple of good ol' boys
71 Avek00 : Exactly - why would airlines want to deprive themselves of the profit that FFPs generate?
72 Supa7E7 : Avek is right. FF PROGRAMS ARE PROFITABLE!!!!!! GET YOUR HEADS AROUND IT. FF COSTS = NEAR ZERO FF REVENUE = PEOPLE BOOK OUT OF LOYALTY MARGINAL PROFIT
73 Aa777flyer : I think that ending the FF programs would do just the opposite. The majors need loyal customers to keep comming back and build a consistant revenue ba
74 Bond007 : Well, we'll have to disagree, but I think you also mis-quoted me. I didn't say the FF's ever paid full fare....but I know that they don't NEED to sho
75 United Airline : IMPROVE THE SERVICE!!!!!!! Also the IFE
76 Avek00 : In addition to this, corporations BUY BILLIONS of FF miles every year as a loyalty incentive - an airline gets PAID everytime the likes of AmEx, Hilt
77 Post contains images EA CO AS : I can tell you this because I work for a company of 3,500 FFs... ...that's not rocket science - it's how most of the frequent business travellers work
78 Sllevin : FF programs are perhaps the best deal the airlines have going for themselves. Heck, both Delta and United have recently gotten hundreds of millions of
79 EA CO AS : FF programs are perhaps the best deal the airlines have going for themselves. I won't disagree that FF programs can be moneymakers - my opinion is tha
80 Aa777flyer : Ture, I remember when I was woking with AA, that some of our top tier AAdvantage members really had high (unreal) expectations. I remember this one E
81 Bond007 : Well WN's free round-trip ticket for every 8 trip flown is hardly not giving perks. In fact it's giving away completely free seats...much easier than
82 GoCOgo : Things are not so black and white. It only takes two to have competition. 6+ is too much. How many airlines do you think need to serve NYC-FLL? SoCal
83 Luv2fly : The one things airlines need to do is stop trying to be all things to all people. Cut the routes that are not making money. Understand the difference
84 Flightopsguy : Well, I have worked in the airline industry for the last 20 years, and also my spouse is a top elite on several carriers (including one of the first F
85 Jdaniel001 : Wow, I haven't heard Flying Colonel in years.
86 Flightopsguy : Yep. She flew DL recently, and her boarding pass actually had "Flying Colonel" printed on it. Still gets her free to their Crown Room when she flies o
87 Jdaniel001 : Wow...DL has always been classy that way. They treat their FF members guinely nice. Others act fake. One especially, who's initials are American Airl
88 EA CO AS : I still don't understand why FF programs are creating high cost, low yield customers, since when I get upgraded I'm never taking the seating of a pax
89 Supa7E7 : EA CO AS, the PURPOSE of First Class domestic is to reward frequent fliers. Fare-paying First customers are gravy but are not a major source of flight
90 EA CO AS : EA CO AS, the PURPOSE of First Class domestic is to reward frequent fliers. No, the PURPOSE of First Class domestic is to make money for the airline.
91 Post contains images Bond007 : OOooohh...I do agree totally with EA CO AS on the purpose of First Class seats I still can't see how you think frequent travellers (mostly business tr
92 Palebird : The only way to save the major carriers, or for that matter, the entire industry, from caving in on itself is to jack prices back up where they belong
93 FlyingTexan : It was double credits for online bookings through the end of 2003. Then it went .5 bonus credits until April 1 of this year. Now it is a straight 1 f
94 Bond007 : Good stuff FlyingTexan! ......and SWA has made a profit for how many years? ......and you think that a free seat every 4-8 trips costs less to SWA tha
95 PlaneSmart : Supa7e7 'EA CO AS, the PURPOSE of First Class domestic is to reward frequent fliers. Fare-paying First customers are gravy but are not a major source
96 Starlionblue : FF is not the problem. FF programs tend to be money makers for the carriers. Tthe problems are a high cost structure, competition from LCCs and a gene
97 Post contains images Bond007 : ...and that's why almost every domestic airliner has less First Class seats now. The aircraft flying most domestic flights in the US are all regional
98 Post contains images ANCFlyer : I am one of those demanding VVFFs . . .    . . . . that likes to be upgraded (if I don't buy the F seat) when I fly. At one point in time, between C
99 ExFATboy : Oh, great idea - the same government that brings us the pinnacle of customer service that is Amtrak can decide how we fly. Here's the problem with th
100 Starlionblue : I agree completely. I am also one of those VVFF fliers (75k miles this year, and counting). FF programs are moneymakers for the airlines.
101 Post contains images Bond007 : Ah, at last some sense from those who actually use the system hmmm...yesterday's ticket RDU-PVD cost me $473.90....probably as much as anyone else on
102 Tango-Bravo : In reality Midwest as a premium carrier is dead. Correct you are -- both statements are true ...for one reason only... accounting hocus-pocus by whic
103 ScottB : I suppose I'll finally chime in on this one. As several here have noted, frequent flyer programs actually generate a considerable amount of revenue fo
104 WDBRR : I have amassed about 150,000 FF miles in the last 5 years by having an airline branded credit card, supermarket promos, changing cell and landline pho
105 DAYflyer : Actually, this is a very interesting thought from the business side of the ledger. For example, If you generate $40,000 revenue rather than 10,000 FF
106 Bond007 : I happen to believe that most of the time, this is the way it works now. Remember that most perks that require 'elite' status, the status level is bas
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