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TG To Lose Big $$$$ On NYC Route For First 3 Years  
User currently offlineBkkair From Thailand, joined Aug 2001, 409 posts, RR: 0
Posted (9 years 4 months 2 weeks 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 8239 times:

According to the article in the Bangkok Post, TG won't make money on the non-stop from BKK-NYC until 2009. (service starts 1 May 05, 6x weekly using an A340-500)

They are expected to trim the loss to US$115,000,000 by the 2nd year of service. Yes, a loss of US$115,000,000 per year on one route flying 6 days a week! This is an incredible investment and I just don't see TG continuing the route with these enormous losses.

Are TG crazy? The article also says that TG will evaluate the route after 3 months. Then what, drop it?

Only 200,000 people a year travel between Thailand and the US and the numbers are decreasing each year, according to the article.

http://www.bangkokpost.com/News/18Apr2005_news02.php (registration required)

37 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineSchipholjfk From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 579 posts, RR: 6
Reply 1, posted (9 years 4 months 2 weeks 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 8205 times:

So why is TG then starting this service? As a NYC resident I really didn't see any need for direct service to BKK. $115 million seems a bit excessive if the numbers are true. So what are TG's rationale for initiating this flight?


The fun of flying... love it !!!
User currently offlineMAH4546 From Sweden, joined Jan 2001, 32736 posts, RR: 72
Reply 2, posted (9 years 4 months 2 weeks 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 8183 times:

Quoting Bkkair (Thread starter):
They are expected to trim the loss to US$115,000,000 by the 2nd year of service. Yes, a loss of US$115,000,000 per year on one route flying 6 days a week! This is an incredible investment and I just don't see TG continuing the route with these enormous losses.

That number is, simply put, incorrect. It doesn't even cost $115,000,000 to operate the flight annually. What the writer probably mean was $.437 billion bhat (or 43.7 million).



a.
User currently offlinePlanemannyc From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 1008 posts, RR: 8
Reply 3, posted (9 years 4 months 2 weeks 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 8063 times:
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Although the number of passengers between US and Thailand maybe only 200,000 per year, let's not forget Thai also feeds to its vast Asian network (and let's not forget all the Asian carriers that fly to BKK). CMB, MAA, CCU, KTM, DAC, DEL, YGN, CGP, HAN, SGN, MNL, KUL, PEN, SIN, JKT, TPE, DPS come to mind.

Question is, with SQ having 2-3-2 seating, how much of a convenience/discount does TG have to offer to siphon passengers away to its flights?

Best,

Wasim / Planemannyc


User currently offlineRamprat980 From United States of America, joined Mar 2005, 600 posts, RR: 3
Reply 4, posted (9 years 4 months 2 weeks 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 8031 times:

Is it possible that the U.S government may be subsidizing TG ?


With gun control there can be no democracy.. With gun control there can be no Freedom
User currently offlinePanamair From United States of America, joined Oct 2001, 4898 posts, RR: 25
Reply 5, posted (9 years 4 months 2 weeks 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 7968 times:
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Quoting Schipholjfk (Reply 1):
So why is TG then starting this service?

Simple case of "keeping up with the Joneses" - in this case the Joneses being SQ with their SIN-EWR service.


User currently offline6thfreedom From Bermuda, joined Sep 2004, 3325 posts, RR: 20
Reply 6, posted (9 years 4 months 2 weeks 3 days ago) and read 7935 times:

Quoting Bkkair (Thread starter):
According to the article in the Bangkok Post, TG won't make money on the non-stop from BKK-NYC until 2009. (service starts 1 May 05, 6x weekly using an A340-500)

They are expected to trim the loss to US$115,000,000 by the 2nd year of service. Yes, a loss of US$115,000,000 per year on one route flying 6 days a week! This is an incredible investment and I just don't see TG continuing the route with these enormous losses.

what is the source of information the newspaper is using. From my experience, mainstream papers know nothing about aviation.

In Australia, papers frequently miss quote.
they can't even work out the difference between Air China and China Airlines!


User currently offlineN1120A From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 26444 posts, RR: 75
Reply 7, posted (9 years 4 months 2 weeks 3 days ago) and read 7883 times:

Quoting Ramprat980 (Reply 4):
Is it possible that the U.S government may be subsidizing TG ?

For what reason in the world would that be so?



Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
User currently offlinePA110 From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 2003 posts, RR: 23
Reply 8, posted (9 years 4 months 2 weeks 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 7831 times:
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Quoting Bkkair (Thread starter):
Are TG crazy? The article also says that TG will evaluate the route after 3 months. Then what, drop it?

This would be a classic Thai move. TG may have pretty planes and even prettier flight attendants, but they have absolutely no clue how to go after sales in the North American market.

They closed their sales offices because they weren't filling their planes. Guess what... their sales dropped even further, so they had to further reduce frequency. These guys are unbelievable. The sad bit is that they'll probably never change. It's in the Thai culture. They can't lose face by admitting they're in over their heads. So instead, they sit and do nothing until the crisis overtakes them.



It's been swell, but the swelling has gone down.
User currently offlinePA110 From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 2003 posts, RR: 23
Reply 9, posted (9 years 4 months 2 weeks 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 7810 times:
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Quoting Planemannyc (Reply 3):
let's not forget Thai also feeds to its vast Asian network

Sorry, but totally irrelevant. With decreased frequencies and closed sales offices, TG has lost most of their major tour operator business that was responsible for over half their leisure sales. They do not pursue any sales beyond the local ethnic Thai town business in Los Angeles. Some business comes their way by way of the Star Alliance, but this is more by accident than by actual sales efforts on the part of TG management. Bottom line, other airlines do it alot better. Out of the NYC region, TG is going up against almost every other major Asian carrier, all of whom have a far more robust sales organizations with well established distribution channels for their products. TG is severely behind the curve here, and thus far with a single sales person, does not have the ability to compete.



It's been swell, but the swelling has gone down.
User currently offlineAF022 From France, joined Dec 2003, 2160 posts, RR: 1
Reply 10, posted (9 years 4 months 2 weeks 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 7577 times:

totally agree with PA110. TG's marketing savvy is terrible. BKK doesn't have nearly the business traffic that BKK does, and TG's ability to connect passengers through BKK is hindered by terrible schedules.

the current LAX flight arrives BKK at 2230, and within 4 hours there are connections available only to:

NRT (pointless)
ICN (pointless)
BNE
CCU
FRA (pointless)
KIX (pointless)
CDG (pointless)
FCO (pointless)
NGO (pointless)
MEL
MXP (pointless)
PUS (pointless)
ZRH (pointless)
ATH (pointless)
PEK (pointless)
PVG
FUK (pointless)
ARN (pointless)
LHR (pointless)
CPH (pointless)

Basically, the only destination to connect to where TG has some sort of possibility of capturing passengers from more circuitous options on the competition is Calcutta.


User currently offlineSupa7E7 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 11, posted (9 years 4 months 2 weeks 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 7505 times:

Their Thai Smooth as Silk campaign was great. Maybe marketing they can't do, but their brand image is top-notch. As a very attractive airline with Star Alliance connections, they will capture the premium NYC-BKK market.

The business market is strong, ethnic market is strong, and tourist market is growing. They'd have done this in 1995 if the proper equipment existed.


User currently onlineHB-IWC From Indonesia, joined Sep 2000, 4503 posts, RR: 72
Reply 12, posted (9 years 4 months 2 weeks 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 7490 times:

Quoting Planemannyc (Reply 3):
Although the number of passengers between US and Thailand maybe only 200,000 per year, let's not forget Thai also feeds to its vast Asian network (and let's not forget all the Asian carriers that fly to BKK). CMB, MAA, CCU, KTM, DAC, DEL, YGN, CGP, HAN, SGN, MNL, KUL, PEN, SIN, JKT, TPE, DPS come to mind.

I wouldn't be so sure about that. There's scheduling issues with virtually all of the destinations mentioned in this list. India originating passengers are looking at a 20-hour BKK lay-over on the outbound sector, while for almost all South East Asian destinations there is no connectivity on the return journey as the JFK flight arrives BKK in the late afternoon!

Schedule-wise, only SQ got it right with its nonstop EWR service as well as its one stop FRA-JFK flight. Both MH's one-stop EWR service and this new TG service are very ill-timed, as a result of efforts by the two airlines to jack up utilization. These efforts will however come back and haunt them because they're bound to lose plenty of business as a result of miserable scheduling.

Overall, I do agree with many of the posters here that TG is not doing a very good job in marketing its products. I would like to add to that, that their product has also been lacking consistency and that it is surely not easy to market the airline's LAX product, which suffers not only from bad scheduling but also from a mediocre product at best. TG often operates the non-refurbished B744s on the route. No wonder things haven't been going well lately.

TG's recent history shows a remarkable number of miscalculations and ill-informed decisions. The airline must by now be the champion of opening new destinations and closing them again within a record time. Geneva and Abu Dhabi are recent examples, but there's others in recent past. And as the cards are laid out right now, I have a feeling that JFK could be the next one on that infamous list.


User currently offlineNethkt From Thailand, joined Apr 2001, 1081 posts, RR: 3
Reply 13, posted (9 years 4 months 2 weeks 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 7150 times:

Well...we will see.

There are thousands of rumours everyday. But, from 1st May, we will see.

I actually called them to list myself on standby staff. The loads are around +10, +15 depends on day. So I will see it when I fly BKK-JFK on 7th May and back on the 14th May. Will let you guys know!

I hate rumours...rumours are always rumours...but we will see!!

 Wink



Let's just blame it on yields.
User currently offlineDLPMMM From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 3591 posts, RR: 10
Reply 14, posted (9 years 4 months 2 weeks 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 7054 times:

I'll be going in July for the 2nd time this year, but it will be via NRT due to business needs. The 200K pax per year seems suspect to me, I would think it is many more.

I think some here are confusing Marketing and Sales. Thai's marketing campaigns have been quite good. There sales efforts (i.e. closing sales offices...) might have been poor.


User currently offlineSAS_A330-300 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 15, posted (9 years 4 months 2 weeks 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 6886 times:

Quoting HB-IWC (Reply 12):
Both MH's one-stop EWR service and this new TG service are very ill-timed

For some reason MH recently upgraded their KUL-ARN-EWR service from 772 to 744 after only 5 months of operation. The service is mostly adjusted to the ARN-EWR leg. TG's service just follows the normal departure time of their longhaul flights at that time at BKK. The arrival at BKK is about when most longhaul flights from Europe also arrives.

Quoting HB-IWC (Reply 12):
TG's recent history shows a remarkable number of miscalculations and ill-informed decisions. The airline must by now be the champion of opening new destinations and closing them again within a record time. Geneva and Abu Dhabi are recent examples, but there's others in recent past. And as the cards are laid out right now, I have a feeling that JFK could be the next one on that infamous list.

TG might maybe not be so well organized, however as long the europeans keep coming to Thailand I don't see any reason put them on a black list.


User currently offline6thfreedom From Bermuda, joined Sep 2004, 3325 posts, RR: 20
Reply 16, posted (9 years 4 months 2 weeks 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 6726 times:

IMO, TG should be focussing on increasing capacity and consolidating on routes where it does well. Their product in the Australian market is terrible, and there was/is a window of opportunity for them to consolidate and be a leading carrier between Asia, Europe and Australia.

Yet, they continue to send there beaten up MD11's to places like MEL, where they are the only carrier on the sector, and could easily have 80% market share. However, due to their inferior product, pax continue to make the dreaded 3-4 hr transit via SYD to fly with QF/BA.

And if/when QR enters the sector, they will be kicking themselves further for not making changes earlier.

I wonder how they will cope in SYD this year. Not only have they added over 600 seats pw due to 3pw services going non-stop to AKL, but EK has also added over 2,500 seats per week on the BKK-SYD sector...

It's a shame - an airline with so much potential, with a hub in a country most people like to visit... yet....


User currently offlineAS739X From United States of America, joined Apr 2003, 6126 posts, RR: 23
Reply 17, posted (9 years 4 months 2 weeks 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 6513 times:

RampRat980: That may be one of the silliest things I have ever seen on A.net. I hope you had some sarcasim!
-
I can see that plane ending up in SFO or SEA or both real quickly with these kind os losses going to JFK. Maybe TG would consider a SEA stop over (ex. EVA) on the way. SEA has a huge Thai population, not to mention is a former TG route.

ASSFO



"Some pilots avoid storm cells and some play connect the dots!"
User currently offlineIluv747400 From United States of America, joined Jan 2000, 372 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (9 years 4 months 2 weeks 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 6479 times:

Wouldn't it make more sense to operate a flight to San Francisco or Chicago, Star Alliance hubs, which could provide the flight with real connection opporunities?

User currently offlinePyroGX41487 From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 280 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (9 years 4 months 2 weeks 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 6043 times:

Don't forget more service to LAX, Iluv747400.

I think JFK is a smart move for BKK, only if it starts code-sharing with US Carriers there. From JFK (and even LAX/SFO), TG has access to many middle-American destinations, not to mention Canada. As for who would actually want to fly to such a destination from JFK is up to the statistics.

~ Pyro


User currently offlineDionysus From Thailand, joined Aug 2003, 67 posts, RR: 0
Reply 20, posted (9 years 4 months 2 weeks 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 5943 times:

This non-stop BKK-JFK route is tremendously political influenced. As someone as mentioned, some idiots in TG have this vision of copying SQ, thus this non-stop route was born. They even said that TG would attract more paxs as this service is the fastest to JFK from SE Asia (implying that they are in better position than SQ). They really think that one hour less flying time from BKK would make significant different.

And may be they've forgotten that paxs from BKK are mostly non-business (i.e. low revenue) paxs compared to Singapore.

I think it would be more economical viable, if TG would pick ORD instead of JFK. ORD is a huge UA hub which TG can code-share many flights to major US cities with UA.

TG is run mostly by crowns and idiots whom only care about skimming of $$$$ from plane and spare parts to toothpicks procurement.


User currently offlinePlanemannyc From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 1008 posts, RR: 8
Reply 21, posted (9 years 4 months 2 weeks 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 5886 times:
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Quoting HB-IWC (Reply 12):
Quoting Planemannyc (Reply 3):
Although the number of passengers between US and Thailand maybe only 200,000 per year, let's not forget Thai also feeds to its vast Asian network (and let's not forget all the Asian carriers that fly to BKK). CMB, MAA, CCU, KTM, DAC, DEL, YGN, CGP, HAN, SGN, MNL, KUL, PEN, SIN, JKT, TPE, DPS come to mind.

I wouldn't be so sure about that. There's scheduling issues with virtually all of the destinations mentioned in this list. India originating passengers are looking at a 20-hour BKK lay-over on the outbound sector, while for almost all South East Asian destinations there is no connectivity on the return journey as the JFK flight arrives BKK in the late afternoon!

Looks like Thai is trying to get 6th Freedom from Bangladesh.

http://www.airliners.net/discussions...eneral_aviation/read.main/2063016/


User currently offlineFlyguy1 From United States of America, joined Jun 1999, 1738 posts, RR: 4
Reply 22, posted (9 years 4 months 2 weeks 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 5491 times:

Quoting Nethkt (Reply 13):
I wouldn't be so sure about that. There's scheduling issues with virtually all of the destinations mentioned in this list. India originating passengers are looking at a 20-hour BKK lay-over on the outbound sector, while for almost all South East Asian destinations there is no connectivity on the return journey as the JFK flight arrives BKK in the late afternoon!

Thai will still get some pretty good connections with the 1610 arrival into BKK, esp. in Thailand:
CEI, CNX, HAN, UBP, UTH, URT, RGN, SIN, KUL, PEN, HKT, HDY, KKC, PNH, PHS, KUL, SGN.



727, L1011, MD80, A300, 777-200, 737-300, 737-700, 747-400, 757-200, 737-800, A320. E190, E135, 767-200, CRJ9
User currently onlineHB-IWC From Indonesia, joined Sep 2000, 4503 posts, RR: 72
Reply 23, posted (9 years 4 months 2 weeks 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 5321 times:

Quoting SAS_A330-300 (Reply 15):
The arrival at BKK is about when most longhaul flights from Europe also arrives.

Longhaul flights from Europe arrive mostly in the morning. The JFK service will arrive in the late afternoon, making connections to many points in Asia virtually impossible without a night's lay over in BKK. Not that I mind a night in BKK, but that's another story.


User currently offlineMAH4546 From Sweden, joined Jan 2001, 32736 posts, RR: 72
Reply 24, posted (9 years 4 months 2 weeks 2 days ago) and read 5241 times:

Quoting HB-IWC (Reply 23):
The JFK service will arrive in the late afternoon, making connections to many points in Asia virtually impossible without a night's lay over in BKK. Not that I mind a night in BKK, but that's another story.

The JFK arrival connects easily with flights to Colombo, Delhi, Hanoi, Kuala Lumpor, Mumbai, Kolkata, Saigon, Singapore and Sydney, plus most of Thai's domestic network. Most are quick connections (2-3 hours), and some are long (Kolkata especially, which would mean a six hour layover), but they connect.



a.
25 PA110 : You guys just don't get it. TG could make all the connections under the sun and it STILL WOULDN'T MATTER. TG's revenue is primarily low-yield ethnic/
26 Copaair737 : I hope TG starts up some SFO service soon. It would be great to see TG's A345 at SFO, and plus SFO is a giant Star Alliance hub, so connections could
27 PA110 : TG had the opportunity to open up SFO, but totally passed it up. You have to understand their North American management. They don't speak english. Th
28 Copaair737 : Thanks for the heads up PA. I often wondered why TG did some strange things, and I guess that explains why. I hope that they could get their act toget
29 MAH4546 : All I said was the JFK arrival easily connects with various destinations. I never once stated that such arrival time and connecting oppurtunities wil
30 Spk : This flight will connect to most Indochina, India, and China destinations. Connecting traffic to those destinations may give them some business traffi
31 ThaiAggie : I couldn't agree more. THAI's marketing in north america sucks big time. I don't even fly them to BKK when I go visit my family. They need to do somet
32 Post contains images Nethkt : Connections to India and China, that's the point for JFK flight, I guess. I think someone here just reading the news, not working in airlines themselv
33 Nethkt : Where is eveyone? Come and make some noise in here!! net
34 CXoneWorld : Why do you think passengers from Shanghai or Beijing (i.e. where the real money is) backtrack so much just to catch a flight to JFK? If they don't fa
35 Spk : No need to fight. I bet TG management, mediocre as it is, still know a hell lot more about aviation business then all of us here is this forum. And th
36 Zvezda : Three years of losses on the route?? Could that be how long it takes to get B777-200LR deliveries?
37 Malaysia : exactly no wonder why they dont want to hire me, they fear me cause I know about aviation a lot better than even the CEO (an aviation unknown) I hope
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