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The Worst Aviation Article--Ever  
User currently offlineMaverickM11 From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 17824 posts, RR: 46
Posted (9 years 8 months 1 week 1 day ago) and read 14833 times:

http://www.salon.com/opinion/feature/2005/04/16/airline_woes/

Apparently in Alex Marhsall's world, the Sun still revolves around the Earth.


E pur si muove -Galileo
44 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineBirdwatching From Germany, joined Sep 2003, 3836 posts, RR: 51
Reply 1, posted (9 years 8 months 1 week 23 hours ago) and read 14798 times:

Since deregulation unleashed the carriers' talons in the late 1970s, they have stuffed us into smaller seats and smaller planes

Wrong, planes are bigger now. Back then, it was mostly 707, 727, 737, DC9 in the US.

charged us capriciously and exorbitantly

Hey, tickets are cheaper NOW!!!

routed us through cities we never wanted to visit

More direct flights TODAY than THEN!



All the things you probably hate about travelling are warm reminders that I'm home
User currently offlineAirWillie6475 From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 2448 posts, RR: 1
Reply 2, posted (9 years 8 months 1 week 23 hours ago) and read 14794 times:

Airlines are doing bad because of Osama Bin Laden not because of deregulation. By the way, where is Osama?

User currently offlineBirdwatching From Germany, joined Sep 2003, 3836 posts, RR: 51
Reply 3, posted (9 years 8 months 1 week 23 hours ago) and read 14761 times:

That's why many planes in the sky today are dangerously old

Are we talking about certain DC9s here? Generally speaking, this is wrong!

Several studies have, in fact, concluded that prices on average have decreased 30 percent since 1978.

3 minutes ago, he claimed the opposite.

Before deregulation, U.S. airlines bought a new fleet of Boeing planes every few years

Oh come on.

which gave Boeing the freedom to innovate and compete commercially.

Oh come on!

And the title - "Crash and Burn"...

No comment!



All the things you probably hate about travelling are warm reminders that I'm home
User currently offlineDfwRevolution From United States of America, joined Jan 2010, 1001 posts, RR: 51
Reply 4, posted (9 years 8 months 1 week 23 hours ago) and read 14748 times:

Quoting AirWillie6475 (Reply 2):
Airlines are doing bad because of Osama Bin Laden not because of deregulation.

Terrorism is not hurting the industry today. Traffic is at pre-9/11 levels and has even grown to some extent.

Quoting AirWillie6475 (Reply 2):
By the way, where is Osama?

It would make zero difference to any anti-terrorist efforts if bin Laden were to be captured. Al-Queda cellular nature is highly decentralized, there is no "head" to take-out. Keep your politics to yourself, please.

Quoting Birdwatching (Reply 1):
Wrong, planes are bigger now. Back then, it was mostly 707, 727, 737, DC9 in the US.

And now many carriers are misusing regional jets on routes once served by mainline aircraft. DEN-ATL on a UAEX CRJ?? While I agree this article blows so bad it shouldn't even be a point of contention, planes are getting smaller


User currently offlineAirWillie6475 From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 2448 posts, RR: 1
Reply 5, posted (9 years 8 months 1 week 23 hours ago) and read 14693 times:

"Terrorism is not hurting the industry today."

I wasn't talking about traffic, I was talking about the state of the airlines. And yes, terrorism did hurt the industry.


User currently offlineDfwRevolution From United States of America, joined Jan 2010, 1001 posts, RR: 51
Reply 6, posted (9 years 8 months 1 week 23 hours ago) and read 14671 times:

Quoting AirWillie6475 (Reply 6):
I was talking about the state of the airlines. And yes, terrorism did hurt the industry.

Did it, yes. Is it, no.

9.11 was only one of several factors, not even the greatest, that led to our current predicament.


User currently offlineFriendlySkies From United States of America, joined Aug 2004, 4120 posts, RR: 5
Reply 7, posted (9 years 8 months 1 week 23 hours ago) and read 14672 times:

Quoting AirWillie6475 (Reply 6):
And yes, terrorism did hurt the industry.

The industry was on a down-turn either way...9/11 just greatly expedited the fall, and caught most airlines off guard as they were still reeling in the profits from the '90s. But the problems with US Airways, United, Delta, etc...those were in the works well before 9/11.


User currently offlineSonOfACaptain From United States of America, joined May 2004, 1747 posts, RR: 6
Reply 8, posted (9 years 8 months 1 week 23 hours ago) and read 14665 times:

Quoting AirWillie6475 (Reply 2):
Airlines are doing bad because of Osama Bin Laden not because of deregulation.

Deregulation started tons of problems in the industry today.

-SOAC



Non Illegitimi Carborundum
User currently offlineNwafflyer From United States of America, joined Jul 2004, 1050 posts, RR: 2
Reply 9, posted (9 years 8 months 1 week 23 hours ago) and read 14644 times:

Oh please, we don't 'almost have him' nor are we likely to -- but, he is not the cause/culprit for the flying situation we have today either. Yes, the US airline industry was a bit innocent, and terrorists did a major job on the world trade center. No way do I want to down rate what happened there.

However, we need to look at a new future, and that does not need to be terrible from either an airline nor a passenger perspective if we all use a bit of intelligence. Right now, the airlines are fighting a major fuel cost battle, and yes, those costs should be absorbed by us, the passengers. After all, if you drive your car from NYC to LA, you'll pay the fuel costs, why would you not expect to if you fly????????


User currently offlineMaverickM11 From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 17824 posts, RR: 46
Reply 10, posted (9 years 8 months 1 week 22 hours ago) and read 14563 times:

Drop the Osama nonsense. Stick to the article.


E pur si muove -Galileo
User currently offlineMtnmanmakalu From Ireland, joined Nov 2004, 515 posts, RR: 3
Reply 11, posted (9 years 8 months 1 week 22 hours ago) and read 14514 times:

Quoting Nwafflyer (Reply 10):
After all, if you drive your car from NYC to LA, you'll pay the fuel costs, why would you not expect to if you fly????????

The 1st intelligent comment on a thread full of Bush ass-kissers and Bush bashers- Right on the $$$$$$



I do, I don't, whatever.......
User currently offlineBond007 From United States of America, joined Mar 2005, 5454 posts, RR: 8
Reply 12, posted (9 years 8 months 1 week 22 hours ago) and read 14493 times:

Yeah, there's always some reason...

9/11...

Fuel Costs...

Fuel accounts for around 10-15% of operating costs for the airline, so perhaps we should worry about the other 85%....the 85% that the airline does have control over...like how the company is run.

Jimbo



I'd rather be on the ground wishing I was in the air, than in the air wishing I was on the ground!
User currently offlineUAcsOKC From United States of America, joined Dec 2004, 107 posts, RR: 1
Reply 13, posted (9 years 8 months 1 week 21 hours ago) and read 14384 times:

Quoting Bond007 (Reply 13):

Fuel accounts for around 10-15% of operating costs for the airline, so perhaps we should worry about the other 85%....the 85% that the airline does have control over...like how the company is run

True, carriers need to work on cost. But even the Giant gorilla Southwest would not have posted as good a profit if they hadn't hedged fuel. The fact is that ticket prices could stand a modest increase to offset fuel costs, but all the Wal-Mart shoppers think about is that Airline A's prices are $10 lower than Airline B's, despite the fact that Airline B offers better service. Thats just the way poeple think, and it doesn't help the situation.



I love the rumble of a 727 takeoff in the morning!
User currently offlineAerorobnz From Rwanda, joined Feb 2001, 7394 posts, RR: 16
Reply 14, posted (9 years 8 months 1 week 19 hours ago) and read 14196 times:

Most of the airlines that are in dire straights now were in dire straights before 11 September 2001. It became a convenient scapegoat for what in actual fact was incompetence by management.

Even the fuel prices now are being used as an excuse for huge debts. All airlines are suffering the same prices, it's just the airlines in the shit are using it as another excuse for why they continue building debt.

Quoting UAcsOKC (Reply 14):
But even the Giant gorilla Southwest would not have posted as good a profit if they hadn't hedged fuel

That's what they call investing while the going is good, not treading water desperately to stay afloat as UA/DL/US are doing...The fact is either way a profit would have been made....


User currently offlineMaverickM11 From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 17824 posts, RR: 46
Reply 15, posted (9 years 8 months 1 week 18 hours ago) and read 14168 times:

"One of that cartel's worst innovations was the "hub" system, in which airlines route many or most of their flights through a single city. At first, it's difficult to understand the benefits of hubs to airlines. After all, whether you're flying or driving from Omaha, Neb., to Kansas City, Mo., the quickest and cheapest way to go is in a straight line. It would cost airlines less on fuel to fly people directly to major cities because such flights generally use larger planes "

Discuss.



E pur si muove -Galileo
User currently offlineRDUDDJI From Lesotho, joined Jun 2004, 1545 posts, RR: 3
Reply 16, posted (9 years 8 months 1 week 17 hours ago) and read 14061 times:

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 16):
"One of that cartel's worst innovations was the "hub" system, in which airlines route many or most of their flights through a single city. At first, it's difficult to understand the benefits of hubs to airlines. After all, whether you're flying or driving from Omaha, Neb., to Kansas City, Mo., the quickest and cheapest way to go is in a straight line. It would cost airlines less on fuel to fly people directly to major cities because such flights generally use larger planes "

That whole second page about airline hubs was quite possibly the dumbest thing I've ever read. It was almost humorous



Sometimes we don't realize the good times when we're in them
User currently offlineMrniji From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 17, posted (9 years 8 months 1 week 16 hours ago) and read 14018 times:

Som,ehow, I could not retrieve the article.

Quoting AirWillie6475 (Reply 2):
Airlines are doing bad because of Osama Bin Laden not because of deregulation

While I agree that 9/11 was horrible for the industry, deregulation has caused overcompetition on some sectors, pushing the airlines back. Deregulation is a good thing, but needs to be applied more carefully. Overcompetition --> drop of prices --> drop of revenue --> big problem for some carriers

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 16):
One of that cartel's worst innovations was the "hub" system, in which airlines route many or most of their flights through a single city.

Nonsense. Hub- and Spoke increases the network of each airline, helps to fill up planes etc.. especially the transformation of hub and spoke networks in bigger network (keyword airline alliances) is interesting


User currently offlineJacobin777 From United States of America, joined Sep 2004, 14968 posts, RR: 59
Reply 18, posted (9 years 8 months 1 week 16 hours ago) and read 14002 times:

is it salon.com or salon.bomb...me wonders... Confused


"Up the Irons!"
User currently offlineN844AA From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 1352 posts, RR: 1
Reply 19, posted (9 years 8 months 1 week 16 hours ago) and read 13994 times:

Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 19):
is it salon.com or salon.bomb...me wonders...

Well, to be fair, their imminent demise has been predicted for six or seven years now. They must be doing something right, though this article isn't one of those things.

Do they still run "Ask the Pilot"? I always enjoyed that column.



New airplanes, new employees, low fares, all touchy-feely ... all of them are losers. -Gordon Bethune
User currently offlineAcidradio From United States of America, joined Mar 2001, 1875 posts, RR: 10
Reply 20, posted (9 years 8 months 1 week 16 hours ago) and read 13991 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
FORUM MODERATOR

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 16):
"One of that cartel's worst innovations was the "hub" system, in which airlines route many or most of their flights through a single city. At first, it's difficult to understand the benefits of hubs to airlines. After all, whether you're flying or driving from Omaha, Neb., to Kansas City, Mo., the quickest and cheapest way to go is in a straight line. It would cost airlines less on fuel to fly people directly to major cities because such flights generally use larger planes "

Discuss.

No problem! I'll just get in my George Jetson space car that flies directly from point to point. It must cost near next to nothing in this author's world to operate a turbine-powered aircraft and there must be some huge overabundance of said aircraft somewhere that I'm totally overlooking.



Ich haben zwei Platzspielen und ein Microphone
User currently offlineIwok From Sweden, joined Jan 2005, 1108 posts, RR: 0
Reply 21, posted (9 years 8 months 1 week 16 hours ago) and read 13958 times:

Just look at the source of the article, and it all becomes clear.

Salon Media Group, Inc.
101 Spear Street, Suite 203
San Francisco, CA 94105
Telephone 415 645-9200 | Fax 415 645-9204

The amazing thing, is that you actually have to watch an add to see the whole article.  bomb  It is astounding how lame the article is, and yet there are true believers out there whole will take it all in like its the gosh-darn truth! banghead 

-iwok


User currently offlineVHXLR8 From Australia, joined Feb 2005, 500 posts, RR: 3
Reply 22, posted (9 years 8 months 1 week 13 hours ago) and read 13803 times:

Quoting AirWillie6475 (Reply 2):
Airlines are doing bad because of Osama Bin Laden not because of deregulation

Airlines (at least in the USA) are doing badly, because of the complete lack of service you receive on them! Why fly a legacy carrier when they serve you in just the same crap manner as the low cost carriers??
Too many US airlines use terrorism/security etc as excuses for poor service; just get off your asses and do your job if you want the custom.


User currently offlineJafa39 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 23, posted (9 years 8 months 1 week 12 hours ago) and read 13617 times:

Quoting DfwRevolution (Reply 4):
Keep your politics to yourself, please

Seems a bit of a harsh comment dude, was a cheery flippant and globally relevant comment and not politically loaded at all.

Maybe you haven't hit your caffeine levels yet but it would be really dull if humour, observation and a bit of human nature was censored out of a.net.


User currently offlineFlugente777 From Vatican City, joined Feb 2004, 22 posts, RR: 0
Reply 24, posted (9 years 8 months 1 week 12 hours ago) and read 13477 times:

Reply:
AirWillie6475
Where is Osama?

-Well, I`m not quite sure, but I think i saw him last week
at out BurgerKing... ...buying some `99ers...
 scratchchin 



Don`t cry for me Argentina...
25 Post contains links GE90110B1 : Yes, here it is: http://dir.salon.com/topics/ask_the_pilot/
26 Jwenting : Unionised workforces walking out whenever they don't get a 30% raise twice a year you mean? hmm, thought he was living in the Netherlands as a politi
27 HZ747300 : De-regulation was obvious that it had to be done--prior to that airlines with bad business models could make money. Competition only helps the consume
28 Jonty : I agree, people say that de-regulation caused problems but having regulated industry creates artificially high prices and allows problems to grow in
29 DAYflyer : Define modest. I think they need to increase rather dramatically for the airlines to survive. If oil stays where it is, even Southwest will have to i
30 Post contains images LMP737 : Beware airliners.net members, Mr. Marshall is watching. "Go to airliners.netand you can see my name dragged through the mud. According to these guys,
31 Alberchico : I can't get the article !!!
32 Post contains images Scorpio : Well, in that case... let's address Mr. Marshall directly, shall we? I'll start with the first one: Mr. Marshall, you described 'many' planes in the
33 Post contains images N844AA : Hilarious. In a past life, I was a journalist, and though I was usually tempted to respond to whatever angry reaction an article of mine garnered, so
34 Post contains images N844AA : By the way, LMP737, where did you see those comments from the author? I have a few choice words I might like to share with him
35 Junction : Agreed...I've seen 7th grade research papers given a "D" mark with better content accuracy then this story. I feel sorry for all the people who can't
36 Galapagapop : This article looks like it was written by a total outsider who looked at and airline route map. Hubs work, they may not be convenient but they do actu
37 Nrcnyc : The joke of the article is that under deregulation, only the people who fly pay for the operating costs of the airline. What he wants, is the industry
38 LHMark : It'll be interesting to see whether Patrick Smith addresses this article in friday's "Ask the Pilot" column on Salon.com. He has upbraided bad aviatio
39 Post contains links Havaloc : It's funny to hear Salon complain about business practices. After all, they only burned through $80 million in capital. For an online magazine! http:/
40 ZOTAN : I hope he does. That article was terrible. I wanted to email him, but couldnt find an address.
41 LMP737 : N884AA: Mr. Marshall has his very own website, alexmarshall.com.
42 LeanOfPeak : That article is so full of misunderstandings and flat-out falsehoods that I feel compelled to address some of the more grievous ones. I won't quote mu
43 Aloha717200 : Honestly, I don't think this guy's article is even worth our time. We know that he's completely off the mark. And even if we very clearly prove him wr
44 LHMARK : aviateur@askthepilot.com
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