Sponsor Message:
Civil Aviation Forum
My Starred Topics | Profile | New Topic | Forum Index | Help | Search 
AMR CEO Says Boeing 787 May Fit With Fleet Plan  
User currently offlineAeroWesty From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 20322 posts, RR: 63
Posted (9 years 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 9611 times:

It's just a short, quick article at Reuters giving a positive outlook for the 787 joining the AA fleet "down the road."

"We're very intrigued and excited about the 787," said Gerard Arpey in a conference call with analysts, adding that: "Our immediate issue and desire is to drive the 700 plus planes we have to profitability."

http://yahoo.reuters.com/financeQuot...05-04-20_19-03-28_n20222366_newsml


International Homo of Mystery
49 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently onlineNYC777 From United States of America, joined Jun 2004, 5672 posts, RR: 48
Reply 1, posted (9 years 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 9524 times:

Well, duh! Fuel and labor will always be the highest cost for any airline so they can't worry about buying the 787 until they can be profitable. Thatwill really rankle the rank and file and the shareholders. If they do survive the next year or so then I can totally see them putting an oder in two to three years from now.


That which does not kill me makes me stronger.
User currently offlinePiedmontnut From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 79 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (9 years 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 9485 times:

Quoting NYC777 (Reply 1):
they can't worry about buying the 787 until they can be profitable

Agreed...

Someone at AA should be slapped for even thinking about purchasing / leasing new planes whilst the company is in such financial straits. Tisk tisk...

Just my opinion, no offense intended.



May the A380 arrive @ MCO in the near future.
User currently offlineDLPMMM From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 3580 posts, RR: 10
Reply 3, posted (9 years 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 9429 times:

Quoting Piedmontnut (Reply 2):
Someone at AA should be slapped for even thinking about purchasing / leasing new planes whilst the company is in such financial straits. Tisk tisk

No suprise here, and no one should be slapped.

AA will have to look at fleet renewal in the future, as all airlines do. The potential cost savings of a 787 would of course interest AA.

Also he said that the present focus was on attaining profitability with their current fleet.

Management must look at both the short and long term.


User currently offlineJFKLGANYC From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 3176 posts, RR: 5
Reply 4, posted (9 years 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 9359 times:

"If they do survive the next year or so then I can totally see them putting an oder in two to three years from now."

If they survive? AA is the strongest out of the Legacies. And don't tell me about CO being stronger. They are a much smaller airline and own nothing.

If AA dies, there will be many dead airlines before it.

PJ


User currently offlineBoeingBus From United States of America, joined May 2004, 1596 posts, RR: 18
Reply 5, posted (9 years 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 9322 times:

I must agree with JFKLGANYC... you have to give AA some credit after suffering a termendous loss during 9/11, and having the size that it has such as amount of planes, people, assets, and compound that with all of the fuel costs, debts, and inflation.. AA management is doing mighty good job. They could of, would of, should of done it better but considering all the factors listed... Kudos to AA. Can't wait to see AA 787's in a new livery...


Airbus or Boeing - it's all good to me!
User currently offlineN1120A From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 26196 posts, RR: 76
Reply 6, posted (9 years 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 9302 times:

Given the issues with fuel costs, there is even a stronger case for AA to order the 787. Hence why CO already ordered them and NW is ordering them even during times of loss


Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
User currently offlineA388 From Netherlands Antilles, joined May 2001, 9568 posts, RR: 11
Reply 7, posted (9 years 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 9257 times:

I would bet that AA will eventually order the 787 and it will be a massive order (replacement for their current AB6/757/767 fleet). How big would an AA order be for the 787, something in the range of 100 plus 50 options or more? Wow, interesting..... Big grin

A388


User currently offlineSTT757 From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 16694 posts, RR: 51
Reply 8, posted (9 years 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 9252 times:

Quoting JFKLGANYC (Reply 4):
They are a much smaller airline and own nothing.

How about one (if not the) most profitable hub in the US, from EWR they Connect nonstop to 22-24 destinations in Europe, Beijing, Hong Kong, Tokyo, New Dehli, Tel Aviv, Shanghai ('07), Sao Paulo, Bogota, Caracas, Lima, Guayaquil, Quito, Panama City , San Jose, San Salvador, Guatemala City, Belize City, San Pedro Sula, Mexico City, 8 Cities in Canada (St. John, Halifax, Quebec City, Montreal, Ottawa, Toronto, Calgary, Vancouver) and numerous destinations across the US.

There's no major hub in the US which comes close to matching the diverse network CO has at EWR.



Eastern Air lines flt # 701, EWR-MCO Boeing 757
User currently offlineN1120A From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 26196 posts, RR: 76
Reply 9, posted (9 years 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 9207 times:

Quoting A388 (Reply 7):
I would bet that AA will eventually order the 787 and it will be a massive order (replacement for their current AB6/757/767 fleet).

The 787 is not at all a replacement for the 752 fleet at AA. No matter how light and efficient they are, they are still a widebody with more than 20,000 more pounds of thrust than the 752 and are going to burn more fuel. Additionally, they carry far more passengers. They also don't have the same kind of take off performance. The AB6 and 767 are, however, prime targets. Many AA 763s will stick around for a while, however, as some are on the line of 2-3 years old

Quoting A388 (Reply 7):
How big would an AA order be for the 787, something in the range of 100 plus 50 options or more?

Likely not that high to start, as they could not afford the commitment deposits or arrange the financing



Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
User currently offlineLemurs From United States of America, joined Mar 2005, 1439 posts, RR: 4
Reply 10, posted (9 years 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 9100 times:

Quoting STT757 (Reply 8):
There's no major hub in the US which comes close to matching the diverse network CO has at EWR.

That may be true, and personally I agree that CO is in a strong position, but JFKGANYC is still right in terms of their overall security. CO is in a much more tenuous position than AA, because AA has huge assets to go with their debt. CO just has risks, hence why they needed labor concessions so badly.

They're a well operated airline, but they're at the mercy of the market more others. That said, they have more to gain as well with an upturn...risk-reward, etc...



There are 10 kinds of people in the world; those who understand binary, and those that don't.
User currently offlineJacobin777 From United States of America, joined Sep 2004, 14968 posts, RR: 60
Reply 11, posted (9 years 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 9084 times:

Quoting AeroWesty (Thread starter):
"Our immediate issue and desire is to drive the 700 plus planes we have to profitability."

it doesn't help flying 757's and 767's 1/2-2/3 empty from ORD-SFO.... sarcastic 



"Up the Irons!"
User currently offlineMAH4546 From Sweden, joined Jan 2001, 32180 posts, RR: 72
Reply 12, posted (9 years 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 9071 times:

Quoting STT757 (Reply 8):
How about one (if not the) most profitable hub in the US,

They don't own their Newark hub, they own the planes that fly there and, in a few cases, route authorites (whose value varies widely, very few are extremely valuable).



a.
User currently offlineTAN FLYR From United States of America, joined Aug 2000, 1897 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (9 years 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 9025 times:

When, not if, AA places an order with Boeing for the 787 my best estimate would be for 22-30 frames at first, with options for 68-80 additional examples.

Let's go back and visit this one more time (hahaha!) The A-300-600's are cash machines and as long there are ways to fly them cheaper (low lease rates) than new 787 (or 777's) on Caribbean/Latin American routes AA will. Yes eventually they have to go, but Airbus will give them a great deal to renew the leases even for a short (3-7 yrs) time frame. What would they do with 34 used (really used!) frames? Besides IIRC there are some units with only 12-14 yrs into the leases. So those have 6-8 or so left before even a deal to extend a few years depending on finances.

Some believe that the 777 is too big for the current A300 routes..Maybe at this time. But if traffic growth continues climbing up that idea may have to be reexamined. A lower lease cost 777 might be more profitable on some routes than a new 787. Depends on fuel/fares, etc.

So, the first 787's will probably replace the oldest 762ERs in my thinking. New comfort for transcon service. Then next the first batch of 763's to be replaced. Then the rest over time. Yes, remember the newest 763's are just a couple of years old (ordered to replace the TWA 767's). Also the newest 757's are just a couple of years older than that, ordered back in 98 or 99 to replace the Reno Air Mad Dogs, 22 units as I recall. The 757 will be around for a long time.

OK..IMHO!!, an order for the future placed by late this year for first delivery in mid-late 2008. The last 767/757 won't be off the property until 2020-2022 or so unless oil goes to $90-100, then all bets are off.


User currently offlineSTT757 From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 16694 posts, RR: 51
Reply 14, posted (9 years 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 8924 times:

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 12):
They don't own their Newark hub,

They own the lease on the 70+ gates, which is the same as being a home owner yet having a mortgage. It can be sold, even though technically someone (bank, mortgage lender) owns the note.

They also own Air Mic which has landing slots and rights at some of the busiest Asian airports, including 8 Destinations in Japan.



Eastern Air lines flt # 701, EWR-MCO Boeing 757
User currently offlineRIPCORDD From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 1126 posts, RR: 1
Reply 15, posted (9 years 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 8701 times:

AA will order the 787 that is for sure and I'm sure Boeing will give them a great deal and would not be surprised if they order within the next couple of months. They prob would have their first delivery start around 2010 with the option of speeding up deliveries or slowing them down depending on their condition. They would order now to get the delivery slots that's all. I would imagine that they order around 50 firm with the option of around 150 more. They will replace all the 767/A300's. Now the 757 is up in the air if Boeing doesn't make a new 737 to replace the 757 then I think the 757 would go 50% to 787 and 50% to the 737. This would cost a ton of money but would also save them a ton with the fleet type reduction and fuel savings. Just by 2 cents so don't blast me about AA not having any money

User currently offlineSLUAviator From United States of America, joined Aug 2004, 357 posts, RR: 3
Reply 16, posted (9 years 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 8512 times:

At what point does not ordering a plane begin to hurt you? Big airlines around the world are beginning to buy it, and more importantly one US legacy carrier has, and a second is soon to follow. Will passengers take that into account when shopping for tickets? Does AA feel the need to order now so they are also "in the club" especially in light of the press coverage of the NW deal? Can't they order now with delivery slots beginning in the 2012-2015 range? What will it cost them? If AA said we are going to buy 80+ units (and Boeing must know they will have a need for that many), how about we give you 10% of the deposit and pay off the balance over the next few years, you would have to be crazy to say no to that if you are Boeing. AA gets to announce new planes for delivery down the line when they are in better financial shape, and it costs them very little now. Boeing likes it for the obvious reason. Its a good deal for both AA and Boeing. I think it is something they need to do and something they will do by the end of the year.


What do I know? I just fly 'em.......
User currently offlineMAH4546 From Sweden, joined Jan 2001, 32180 posts, RR: 72
Reply 17, posted (9 years 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 8456 times:

Quoting TAN FLYR (Reply 13):

Some believe that the 777 is too big for the current A300 routes..Maybe at this time. But if traffic growth continues climbing up that idea may have to be reexamined.

AA's A300s seat about 30 people more than their 777s. The 777s are certainly not to big for those routes. AA's A300 have more seats than any other planes in their fleet. The 777, however, cannot profitably operate a short hop like MIA-PAP, while the A300 can. The A300 is designed to carry a lot of people and passengers on very short hops.

Quoting STT757 (Reply 14):
They own the lease on the 70+ gates, which is the same as being a home owner yet having a mortgage. It can be sold, even though technically someone (bank, mortgage lender) owns the note.

That is true.

Quoting STT757 (Reply 14):

They also own Air Mic which has landing slots and rights at some of the busiest Asian airports, including 8 Destinations in Japan.

The only valuable landing slots are Narita. Nothing else.

Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 11):

it doesn't help flying 757's and 767's 1/2-2/3 empty from ORD-SFO....

Only one SFO-ORD flight is a 763. The rest are M80/M83s.



a.
User currently offlineDfwRevolution From United States of America, joined Jan 2010, 915 posts, RR: 51
Reply 18, posted (9 years 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 8423 times:

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 17):
AA's A300s seat about 30 people more than their 777s.

That's because of configuration density, the 772ER is configured with lots of premium seats versus the A300 with mostly economy seats. OEW for the A300-600 is about 198klb versus 310klb for a 772ER.

The 777 can fly 1000nm sectors profitably, you just won't sell premium sleeper seats for a 2.5 hours flight.

Quoting RIPCORDD (Reply 15):
AA will order the 787 that is for sure and I'm sure Boeing will give them a great deal and would not be surprised if they order within the next couple of months

Why would Boeing do that? There is little to no probability of an A350 order, so why unnecessarily slash prices? Orders are coming in at a steady pace, so why cut into your own profit for a near-term order?

Have we all forgot the lesson of the 772ER: if you can charge a premium, do it!


User currently offlineN1120A From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 26196 posts, RR: 76
Reply 19, posted (9 years 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 8390 times:

Quoting STT757 (Reply 14):
They own the lease on the 70+ gates, which is the same as being a home owner yet having a mortgage. It can be sold, even though technically someone (bank, mortgage lender) owns the note.

Actually, that is ownership. If you LEASE something, it is rented from somewhere else. Sure, PANYNJ has given CO very long term leases, but it is PANYNJ who "owns" the lease. CO just pays the leases and has the rights to those gates.

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 17):
AA's A300s seat about 30 people more than their 777s. The 777s are certainly not to big for those routes. AA's A300 have more seats than any other planes in their fleet.

Well, being in a configuration with Domestic F with maybe 40"-42" of pitch and Y class pitch of 31" as opposed to Flat beds in F, almost flat seats with massive pitch in J and 34" pitch Y makes a huge difference. You can, if you want, fit 440 seats in a 772ER, whereas you can only max an A300 out at maybe 300. There is a massive difference in floor space. I am surprised you would make that mistake, after seeing how intelligent most of your posts are. If AA had their 777s in the same configuration as their A300s, you would be talking 350-380 seats.

Quoting DfwRevolution (Reply 18):
The 777 can fly 1000nm sectors profitably, you just won't sell premium sleeper seats for a 2.5 hours flight.

Well, theoretically perhaps, though a 772ER may not enjoy the pounding of that kind of flying (much like the QF and MH A330s have had problems with). Even though the 772A and 773A have proven hardy, the structural changes for the longer haul models would likely make short hauls not their most favorite thing. Still, AA flies 772ERs every day on LAX-DFW



Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
User currently offlineSTT757 From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 16694 posts, RR: 51
Reply 20, posted (9 years 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 8349 times:

Quoting N1120A (Reply 19):
Actually, that is ownership. If you LEASE something, it is rented from somewhere else. Sure, PANYNJ has given CO very long term leases, but it is PANYNJ who "owns" the lease. CO just pays the leases and has the rights to those gates.

CO leases Terminal C from the Port Authority, and the Port Authority leases the airport from the City of Newark who owns the land.



Eastern Air lines flt # 701, EWR-MCO Boeing 757
User currently offlineFleet Service From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 622 posts, RR: 2
Reply 21, posted (9 years 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 8292 times:

Quoting Piedmontnut (Reply 2):
Someone at AA should be slapped for even thinking about purchasing / leasing new planes whilst the company is in such financial straits. Tisk tisk...

Tell me smart guy, is Continental in any better shape than AMR to be actually ordering new aircraft?

Maybe you should be slapping those folks as well eh?After all, they ended the quarter with about half of the cash AMR did and somehow they were able to order ten 787's...


Better yet, which US legacy carrier is in any condition to be ordering the 787 in the current environment?



Yes, I actually *do* work for an airline,how about you?
User currently offlineN1120A From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 26196 posts, RR: 76
Reply 22, posted (9 years 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 8264 times:

Quoting STT757 (Reply 20):
CO leases Terminal C from the Port Authority, and the Port Authority leases the airport from the City of Newark who owns the land.

Nice trade. Thanks for the head up on Newark owning the land



Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
User currently offlineAA777 From United States of America, joined May 1999, 2541 posts, RR: 28
Reply 23, posted (9 years 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 7892 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Im glad to hear some word from AA finally, at least a comment that they are indeed interested. (yeah, we all kind of knew, but nice to hear the CEO talk about it!). I think its gonna be quite a while till we see AA order the 787, but they will indeed order them soon. Remember, AA is still doing better than other majors... so hopefully they will soon be in a position to order, at least a few, to put their foot in the door.

Why has ILFC not ordered any 787's yet for lease?

-AA777


User currently offlineCkfred From United States of America, joined Apr 2001, 5067 posts, RR: 1
Reply 24, posted (9 years 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 7867 times:

First of all, AA signed an agreement with Boeing around 1998 for production slots over a 20-year period. I don't recall the exact number, but it was roughly equal to the size of the fleet at the time, around 625 planes.

At that time prices were set for Boeing aircraft in production, and I assume that there are provisions for cost increases over time. As for new aircraft models, there is contract language that covers pricing. So, my guess is that AA already has a good idea of the price that it will pay for 787s.

A friend of mine is an AA pilot, and he can't wait for AA to put in the order, for one good reason. He figures that by the time AA starts taking delivery, he will have enough seniority to fly the 787.

AA is in a very good position, because the bulk of the purchase price for an aircraft is paid once a plane starts down the production line. AA would not need to put up much cash to secure deliveries for say 2010 or later. And AA has the cash. The 1Q results announced today included AA's cash balance, which is in excess of $3.5 billion.

The obvious choices for replacement are the A300s and the 767s. I don't see the 787 replacing 757s, but I could see 757s being pulled off trans-Atlantic, transcon, and some long-haul routes and replaced with 787s.


25 Galapagapop : AA did ilk out a operational profit this Quarter, despite fuel. Its just interest that got em'. I'd say by the end of the summer they'll be sitting pr
26 Gift4tbone : I'd like to put my 2 cents in here. I do not usually pay too much attention to AA, as i don't fly them; high fares, and have never heard much good abo
27 Ghost77 : If I Recall Correct! Ricardo APM
28 Gift4tbone : Ghost77, Thanks, ive been wondering that for a while now. -Tony@PVD
29 Ckfred : Gift4tbone: As old as the AA livery is, it doesn't look outdated and is instantly recognized. Despite the fact that changing liveries and logos isn't
30 Gift4tbone : OK, this sounds like a plan, but the 717, is out of production at the end of this year i believe? if its not already. (and i know boeing isnt taking
31 Aeronuts : It's taken way out of content. It said nothing. It's one statement in a conference call. What came before and what came afterward? He could have been
32 Post contains images Fleet Service : AMR management dreams of E170 and E190's operated on mainline routes at Eagle rates. As much sense as a fuel efficent customer friendly aircraft like
33 Rsob : I met an AA pilot, who flies the 757/767 and also does training for new pilots, on a cruise last September and asked him about the 787. He said then,
34 LY4XELD : AA *is* an old airline...what's your point? Just because the livery is old, as Ckfred said, doesn't mean squat for operations/profitability, etc. The
35 Ckfred : Gift4tbone: There are 2 obvioous choices for the F100 replacement. There is the Embrear 170/190 and the Boeing 737-600/700. The problem with the Embre
36 Piedmontnut : First of all, if you would have bothered to read my whole post you should have noted that I said, "Just my opinion, no offense intended". If I would
37 Aa777jr : Everytime I talk with my buddy at AA, his conversations and tone get more and more depressing as far as the future of AA is concerned. They are bleedi
38 RayChuang : You might not be pretty far off. The 787 not only will replace the 767-200 and older 767-300's, but can also be used for international flight expansi
39 Post contains images Aa777jr : Good observation Ray, but AA has said before and in this website it's been posted a few times that they don't plan on retiring their Airbus fleet now.
40 RayChuang : I have to disagree. The AA AB6 fleet is so heavily used on Caribbean routes that they are running up serious amounts of airframe life on their fleet,
41 Behramjee : The B 787s fits in perfectly with AAs future fleet plans as the AB6s can be replaced by the high density B 787-300s and the B 763ERs by B 787-800s and
42 Galapagapop : Well if thats the case at AA I wonder what its like at UA or US? AA is in the best position of the big 6, UA in BK, US in BK, DL going to BK, CO losi
43 Querosene : I think that the composite skin of the 787 can not be polished. I wonder what will AA do....
44 Galapagapop : But if I recall that was a problem on the A300's as well, I though they made some sort of shell or something to apply the ploshed metal look to. I th
45 Post contains images Lemurs : Exposed (laminated for protection of course) carbon fibre is a very hot look in the auto/cycle world. It'd be pretty sweet if some airline could mana
46 Gigneil : The A300s were painted grey, until Airbus agreed to certify the AlClad hull only polished. They can just paint the 7E7s grey. N
47 N844AA : Yeah, I love the way an AA 727 looks, but damn, the livery looks good on a 738 -- almost like the plane was designed for that livery.
48 Tockeyhockey : it doesn't matter what they would save with the 787! that's like saying, i know we have no cash, but let's spend $100 million today to save $5 millio
49 LTBEWR : The 787, in there proposed versions, would be an excellent fit for AA. JFK/EWR - LAX/SFO widebody transcon, to eventually replace the A-300's on key r
Top Of Page
Forum Index

This topic is archived and can not be replied to any more.

Printer friendly format

Similar topics:More similar topics...
Reuters: Boeing 7E7 May Fit In AA, CO Plans posted Wed Jun 16 2004 22:18:38 by United Airline
Boeing 787 Production Rate May Hit 16 Per Month posted Mon May 29 2006 16:42:16 by Keesje
DL CEO Says Transformation Plan Not Enough posted Wed Jul 27 2005 18:11:36 by DAYflyer
AI's Fleet Plan May Be Delayed posted Tue May 3 2005 18:05:45 by Keesje
Live Chat With Boeing 787 Dreamliner Expert posted Tue Apr 26 2005 20:16:44 by BoeingBus
SOuth African "new Fleet Plan" By JAN07; ORD Next posted Fri Nov 10 2006 17:09:51 by Jimyvr
Photo Of Boeing 787 Section Being Transported posted Sat Oct 28 2006 16:09:01 by RobK
AA, DL, UA Vie For Boeing 787 Gold Care Contracts posted Wed Oct 18 2006 01:13:52 by WorldTraveler
Boeing 787 To Have Best Cabin Air/Comfort Ever posted Sun Oct 8 2006 20:32:05 by RoseFlyer
Boeing 787 Dreamliner Break Even No! posted Tue Oct 3 2006 22:26:50 by Bringiton