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Do Any Airlines Sell Seats On Freighters  
User currently offlineSsides From United States of America, joined Feb 2001, 4059 posts, RR: 21
Posted (9 years 4 months 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 7391 times:

This pic got me wondering:


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Photo © Nick Onkow



Does NW -- or any airline -- sell seats on their freighters? I don't know how many of these seats there are; so they could be just for backup crew or other NW personnel.

I doubt any airlines sell these seats via normal procedures, but I was just curious to see if it was done at all.

I know that KLM flies the 744 combi, so don't count that. Just curious.


"Lose" is not spelled with two o's!!!!
37 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineJtamu97 From United States of America, joined Mar 2001, 658 posts, RR: 2
Reply 1, posted (9 years 4 months 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 7300 times:

I could be totally wrong, as I have been known to be once or twice in my life, but it seems the attempted hijacking of the Fed Ex plane years ago changed all of this. I think you used to be able to purchase a ticket on certain routes and this was I think maybe 2 or 3 seats. I can't remember if the guy on the Fed Ex plane was an employee or not but I recall hearing after this incident the freight lines changed their policy about carrying non essential personnel.

Later,
J



Propeller, we don't need no stinkin propeller
User currently offlineN766UA From United States of America, joined Jul 1999, 8227 posts, RR: 23
Reply 2, posted (9 years 4 months 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 7300 times:

Those seats are used by NW crews deadheading or for rest. UPS and FedEx have seats on some of their jets for flying employees as well.


This Website Censors Me
User currently offlineN766UA From United States of America, joined Jul 1999, 8227 posts, RR: 23
Reply 3, posted (9 years 4 months 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 7291 times:

Althought the FedEx incident did change the rules regarding employee travel onboard aircraft, no cargo airlines ever sold seats to my knowledge. The FedEx would-be hijacker was an employee and, if I'm not mistaken, also a pilot.


This Website Censors Me
User currently offlineUAL747DEN From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 2392 posts, RR: 11
Reply 4, posted (9 years 4 months 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 7252 times:

employees of cargo airlines do have nonrev benifets on their airline, at least that is the way it was when I was at UPS


/// UNITED AIRLINES
User currently offlineTod From Denmark, joined Aug 2004, 1724 posts, RR: 3
Reply 5, posted (9 years 4 months 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 7230 times:

sometimes handlers fly along with their cargo, such as live animals.

User currently offline747Loadmaster From Germany, joined Oct 2004, 59 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (9 years 4 months 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 7221 times:

The only non-company people allowed on the flight would be if they where escorting certain cargo (horse handlers, couriers ). They have to be cleared first.

User currently offlineByrdluvs747 From United States of America, joined Jul 2004, 2358 posts, RR: 1
Reply 7, posted (9 years 4 months 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 7193 times:

Do pax have to provide their own food?


The 747: The hands who designed it were guided by god.
User currently offline747Loadmaster From Germany, joined Oct 2004, 59 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (9 years 4 months 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 7150 times:

They get the same catering as us.

User currently offlineTod From Denmark, joined Aug 2004, 1724 posts, RR: 3
Reply 9, posted (9 years 4 months 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 7124 times:

The 767 galley I designed for UPS 767s was pretty sparten, it included a place to put a couple of regular recreational coolers to hold whatever food they took.

User currently offlineGQfluffy From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 10, posted (9 years 4 months 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 7065 times:

IIRC, UPS 767's were "no frill" freighters. Can anyone confirm this?

fluffy


User currently offlineSkibum9 From United States of America, joined Nov 2001, 1229 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (9 years 4 months 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 6895 times:

If I recall correctly, UPS used to have some sort of passenger conversion for some of there 727 freighters. They would just load this module, which contained a normal cabin layout, into the plane. They used it to run charters for companies like Apple Vacations. So technically this would be selling seats on a freighter!

I have always been curious about those modules, like did it have windows?



Tailwinds!!!
User currently offline777STL From United States of America, joined Dec 2004, 3607 posts, RR: 3
Reply 12, posted (9 years 4 months 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 6866 times:

Quoting Skibum9 (Reply 11):
If I recall correctly, UPS used to have some sort of passenger conversion for some of there 727 freighters. They would just load this module, which contained a normal cabin layout, into the plane. They used it to run charters for companies like Apple Vacations. So technically this would be selling seats on a freighter!


Yeah you're right they did. Alaska also has a few 732 Combis that they can install pallatized seats into the cargo bay. If it's being used as a Combi, IRC, the pax actually sit behind the cargo instead of vice versa like a 744.

Quoting UAL747DEN (Reply 4):
employees of cargo airlines do have nonrev benifets on their airline, at least that is the way it was when I was at UPS

I think nonrevving on a cargo airline(UPS, FedEx) is a lot more restricted than it used to be after the FedEx incident. The attacker in the FedEx incident was not a pilot, he worked for FedEx in some other capacity I believe.



PHX based
User currently offlineDoug_Or From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 3402 posts, RR: 3
Reply 13, posted (9 years 4 months 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 6813 times:

Skibum, I beleive they were the same as any other QC or combi aircraft.


When in doubt, one B pump off
User currently offlineUAcsOKC From United States of America, joined Dec 2004, 107 posts, RR: 1
Reply 14, posted (9 years 4 months 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 6765 times:

Quoting Skibum9 (Reply 11):

I have always been curious about those modules, like did it have windows?

Yes, they did indeed have windows. In fact, if you got on one in the pax configuration, it would be hard to tell the difference between it and any other airliner. By the way these aircraft were originally owned by UA an I think also eastern, who used them for pax by day and cargo by night. It was wierd to get them in, unloading containers and looking out the windows just didnt seem quite right.  eyebrow 



I love the rumble of a 727 takeoff in the morning!
User currently offlineTexdravid From United States of America, joined May 2004, 1350 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (9 years 4 months 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 6716 times:

Why would anyone want to fly a freighter?

Usually, freighters are older, noisier, and less fuel efficient aircraft that are do not have the reliability as newer passenger aircraft. Plus, if one was flying LAX-NRT on a cargo flight, you would have to stop at ANC!!

No thanks, I'll fly commercial!!



Tort reform now. Throw lawyers in jail later.
User currently offlinePhilSquares From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 16, posted (9 years 4 months 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 6678 times:

Quoting Texdravid (Reply 15):
Usually, freighters are older, noisier, and less fuel efficient aircraft that are do not have the reliability as newer passenger aircraft. Plus, if one was flying LAX-NRT on a cargo flight, you would have to stop at ANC!!

What about the 744F or the MD-11F? Those are older, noisier and less fuel efficient? The reason you stop in ANC is to optimize payload. However, we have several flights/week that go LAX-HKG or LAX-TPE non stop. But then again, those are on older noisier fuel burning 744Fs.


User currently offlineSkibum9 From United States of America, joined Nov 2001, 1229 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (9 years 4 months 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 6654 times:

Thanks for the replies on my input on the UPS passenger flights.

Quoting Texdravid (Reply 15):
Why would anyone want to fly a freighter?

Usually, freighters are older, noisier, and less fuel efficient aircraft that are do not have the reliability as newer passenger aircraft. Plus, if one was flying LAX-NRT on a cargo flight, you would have to stop at ANC!!

I think you may be a little off on your assumptions on cargo aircraft.

While your comments were true at one point or if you look at smaller cargo carriers, like Kalitta, but if you look at the fleets of carriers like UPS, FEDEX and DHL. you will see that they have a large fleet of new and modern aircraft. DHL has replaced many of their older DC-8s with 762s and 757s. UPS has many newer MD-11s, 757Fs and 767s. And Fedex has many MD-11s, DC-10s that have been converted to MD-10s, A310s and have ordered the A380F. Also many larger cargo carriers have been buying new 747Fs.

While some of the planes may have been retired EARLY by airlines, many are newer airframes, like the MD-11. As far as reliability, I would say that they are much more reliable as the utilization at a cargo carrier is much lower. They usually do two or less cycles a day, where as a commercial passenger airliner may do 5 or more, which increases wear and tear.

I for one would fly on a cargo plane anytime, as the planes are maintained to the same standards as commercial airlines, if not better, and you get a chance to fly on some great airframes, like the MD-11, that are no dwindling in numbers at the commercials.



Tailwinds!!!
User currently offlineLincoln From United States of America, joined Nov 2004, 3887 posts, RR: 8
Reply 18, posted (9 years 4 months 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 6471 times:

Quoting Texdravid (Reply 15):
Why would anyone want to fly a freighter?

Usually, freighters are older, noisier, and less fuel efficient aircraft that are do not have the reliability as newer passenger aircraft. Plus, if one was flying LAX-NRT on a cargo flight, you would have to stop at ANC!!

No thanks, I'll fly commercial!!

I can see why all of these things (save for, possibly, the stop in ANC) would be bad as far as the airline was concerned, but how would it be bad for an av. enthusiast?  Smile

[And I'll avoid the making th ovbious remark about NW's DC-9s...]

Personally, I love the older aircraft (to an extent) -- you can wonder (or, if you have the reg# know) about the airline's previous owners, how many airports it's seen, what one may find scribbled from a ramper from a company long gone...

I couldn't really care less about noise and fuel effeciency. Dispatch reliability isn't a huge one for me either (and certain airlines it seems that it's bad enough with newer aircraft that I don't think it could be much worse...). And I love connections, especially through airports I haven't seen yet--and ANC is one of those  Smile.

Quoting Texdravid (Reply 15):
No thanks, I'll fly commercial!!

ITYM "Scheduled commercial pax" -- Don't cargo and charter qualify as "commercial"? And some of the things I've read/heard about charter operators, I'd much rather travel as cargo (vs. in a pax seat on a cargo aircraft) if given the opportunity...

Lincoln
[Who has intentionally connected through MSP, ORD, ATL, and CVG on his way to DTW from SAN and/or LAX... IAH will probably be my next "extra hub"]



CO Is My Airline of Choice || Baggage Claim is an airline's last chance to disappoint a customer || Next flts in profile
User currently offlineKtachiya From Japan, joined Sep 2004, 1793 posts, RR: 2
Reply 19, posted (9 years 4 months 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 6352 times:

Quoting 747Loadmaster (Reply 6):
horse handlers, couriers

Yes, I read an article about this for NCA (Nippon Cargo Airlines). Since many of their 747F came from ANA, they still have the old first class seats on the second deck for horse handlers, etc.

It looked really nice. I wonder about IFE though.



Flown on: DC-10-30, B747-200B, B747-300, B747-300SR, B747-400, B747-400D, B767-300, B777-200, B777-200ER, B777-300
User currently offlineBrightCedars From Belgium, joined Nov 2004, 1288 posts, RR: 2
Reply 20, posted (9 years 4 months 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 6306 times:

I think it would be a nice idea, particularly nowadays with the 747-400s being converted into freighters and having the stretched upper deck unlike factory rolled 747-400 Freighters.

JAL has announced there would be seats in its converted 747-400s' upper deck (about 40 if I'm not mistaken) but I don't know if they will be marketed.

It could be a nice solution for airports with frequent cargo operations from destinations that are (no longer) served using passenger planes such as Brussels. Seoul, Singapore and the Gulf would then have some kind of service.



I want the European Union flag on airliners.net!
User currently offlineSoundtrack From United States of America, joined Feb 2001, 284 posts, RR: 0
Reply 21, posted (9 years 4 months 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 6282 times:

Cmon folks...

Very few normal passengers would want to be stuck on a Freighter flight nor I believe would airlines care to allow placing regular non-employee/essential or non-special businees (horse trainers, etc) passengers.

Only the aviation enthusiast/officianado would care to normally be on such flights.

Freighters DO offer all the above for their purposes of transporting their own - but you can forget passengers EXCEPT COMBIS like AK 737's and ex-KLM before and some others today (Angola).

But this was a good query!


User currently offlineVHXLR8 From Australia, joined Feb 2005, 500 posts, RR: 3
Reply 22, posted (9 years 4 months 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 6232 times:

Quoting UAL747DEN (Reply 4):
employees of cargo airlines do have nonrev benifets on their airline, at least that is the way it was when I was at UPS

But who then would be in charge of their safety?? Commercial flights of course have flight attendants on board, but cargo flights do not. Even if you are an employee of an airline, that does not mean you are proficient with emergency procedures etc.


User currently offlineEuclid From South Africa, joined Apr 2005, 372 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (9 years 4 months 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 6201 times:

I am not too sure about this, so please feel free to correct me if anyone knows better, but as far as I know Hydro Air Cargo, who used to operate a converted 747 freighter mostly between South Africa and Belgium, sold seats on the upper deck. Sadly this airline went under after the aircraft was damaged in a landing incident at, if I recall correctly, Lagos.

User currently offlineCornish From United Kingdom, joined Feb 2005, 8187 posts, RR: 54
Reply 24, posted (9 years 4 months 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 6176 times:

In my old job, UPS used to report annual traffic data to me. In amongst all their cargo data, they would also include about 100,000 passengers carried per year on their flights (mainly on international services). That has all but disappeared now I notice - I assume because of the new regulations.


Just when I thought I could see light at the end of the tunnel, it was some B*****d with a torch bringing me more work
25 Manu : So would the horse be carried on by the handler, or would the handler be carrying on the horse? Either way, I don't think they'll fit under the seat
26 Post contains links Captoveur : He was a flight engineer, I believe he was about to get fired for falsifying some things on his resume and his plan was to fly the DC-10 into the Fed
27 Tod : On the 744SF currently being converted in Xiamen for CX the upperdeck cabin will be removed aft of the upperdeck doors.
28 NWADC9 : Oh, ho ho ho, that's rich! If an aircraft has 19 seats or less, it won't have an FA. The pilots do the safety briefings, and take over their job exce
29 BrightCedars : It's their choice but the space remains (they're not shrinking the upper deck I presume) as an area that can be fitted with more seats that a classic
30 PhilSquares : Just a followup on the 400 SF conversion. Yes, the space remains, but the flooring is taken out. Thus there is no height restriction for the pallets i
31 EXMEMWIDGET : The attempted hijacking at FedEx caused an immediate suspension of jumpseating privileges by all non pilot employees. I always found this somewhat iro
32 747Loadmaster : On the 300 conversions they did the same thing, they removed the floor so you could get the same amount of 3 meter pallets as on the 200f. If they car
33 Post contains images Captoveur : Did their flight attendants wear brown? Could you get the brown truck to take you to your hotel? When you got there did the hotel have to sign for yo
34 Longhaulheavy : Ha...if he/she had a tracking number, you could track a friend from door-to-door!
35 VHXLR8 : Care to enlighten me as to why it is such?? Perhaps on small commuter aircraft, but on a 747 (or the like), things can be slightly more invloved, and
36 Miami1 : Here in Australia an aircraft with 16 or more seats must have a flight attendant OR the airline must prove to CASA that it's procedures allow the FO t
37 TymnBalewne : I have a vague remembrance (or hallucination?) that Flying Tiger allowed passengers on the upper deck of their 747's for a short period of time callin
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