ETStar From Canada, joined Jan 2004, 2103 posts, RR: 9 Posted (8 years 1 month 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 6208 times:
Nigeria has barred U.S.-based airlines from flying direct to the African nation in retaliation for a U.S. ban on Nigeria's new national carrier, Virgin Nigeria, part-owned by Britain's Virgin Group, officials said on Friday.
There ya have it, it ain't because CO was tired of paying bribes, security, blah blah blah. Simple tit for tat. And I applaud the Nigerian Goverment for doing this, for standing up for their airlines' interest.
MaverickM11 From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 15734 posts, RR: 48 Reply 2, posted (8 years 1 month 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 6147 times:
I figured that was what was happening. Why is Virgin Nigeria banned from the US? When will Virgin Nigeria even have aircraft capable of reaching the US? Is Nigeria Category 1?
LTBEWR From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 12337 posts, RR: 12 Reply 3, posted (8 years 1 month 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 6084 times:
Does Nigeria Airlines currently have direct flights to the USA? I would suggest Virgin Nigeria Airlines is not being allowed rights to the USA due to post-9/11 security fears. That is, fears of terrorists going via Nigeria Airlines, fears of illegal entry into the USA of crews and pax claiming asylum, the difficulty in securing the airport in Nigeria and access to the general public there (unlike the charter flights Houston-Lagos), the horrendous corruption endemic with that country and general lack of rule of law. We would probably rather that access to/from Nigeria be access via Europe so another layer of acceptable security and immigation controls.
USFlyer MSP From United States of America, joined May 2000, 1789 posts, RR: 0 Reply 4, posted (8 years 1 month 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 6051 times:
Quoting LTBEWR (Reply 3): Does Nigeria Airlines currently have direct flights to the USA? I would suggest Virgin Nigeria Airlines is not being allowed rights to the USA due to post-9/11 security fears. That is, fears of terrorists going via Nigeria Airlines, fears of illegal entry into the USA of crews and pax claiming asylum, the difficulty in securing the airport in Nigeria and access to the general public there (unlike the charter flights Houston-Lagos), the horrendous corruption endemic with that country and general lack of rule of law. We would probably rather that access to/from Nigeria be access via Europe so another layer of acceptable security and immigation controls.
Actually, it is beacuse the US government claims that Virgin Nigeria is British controlled, and therefore bound by Bermuda II.
Clipper002 From United States of America, joined Aug 2004, 671 posts, RR: 14 Reply 5, posted (8 years 1 month 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 6023 times:
I wouldn't believe a single word of any article written in any Nigerian newspaper. I have actually been party to several actions that involved Nigeria and when these actions were reported in the local papers, they were completely turned around. Their press is as bad as the government. And don't go quoting "officials". Everyone over there claims to be an official of something.
Aloha717200 From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 4397 posts, RR: 17 Reply 6, posted (8 years 1 month 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 6022 times:
ETStar From Canada, joined Jan 2004, 2103 posts, RR: 9 Reply 7, posted (8 years 1 month 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 6000 times:
Quoting LTBEWR (Reply 3): Does Nigeria Airlines currently have direct flights to the USA? I would suggest Virgin Nigeria Airlines is not being allowed rights to the USA due to post-9/11 security fears. That is, fears of terrorists going via Nigeria Airlines, fears of illegal entry into the USA of crews and pax claiming asylum, the difficulty in securing the airport in Nigeria and access to the general public there (unlike the charter flights Houston-Lagos), the horrendous corruption endemic with that country and general lack of rule of law. We would probably rather that access to/from Nigeria be access via Europe so another layer of acceptable security and immigation controls.
Your concerns also pertain to countries and airlines like Saudi Arabian Airlines, since Saudi Arabia where most of your 911 terrorists came from, South African Airways since in South Africa crime is rife, Biman Bangladesh Airline since that country is ranked the most corrupt, Chinese airlines with China for its human rights abuses Pakistan since it has many issues to count yet all of these airlines (and many others) are allowed entry into the US. So, can you elaborate your point, if you have one?
Claiming assylum is so easy once you have a Visa to the US, and it does not matter which way you get to the States. And none of the airlines would let you onto their flights without a visa as there are repercussions to them for failing to do so.
Many airlines fly into Nigeria, including top notch airlines from Europe and the rest of the world, yet they do not have fear to do so and obviously security in and around the airport is not of concern.
General Lack of rule of law? Ever been to Compton and other parts of California?
Finally, Nigeria Airlines does not exist. It has been liquidated. Virgin Nigeria is its successor and has been designated the country's flag carrier.
Raising 911 as an argument for every issue at hand won't get you anywhere my friend. The world does not revolve around it.
ETStar From Canada, joined Jan 2004, 2103 posts, RR: 9 Reply 8, posted (8 years 1 month 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 5961 times:
Quoting Clipper002 (Reply 5): I wouldn't believe a single word of any article written in any Nigerian newspaper. I have actually been party to several actions that involved Nigeria and when these actions were reported in the local papers, they were completely turned around. Their press is as bad as the government. And don't go quoting "officials". Everyone over there claims to be an official of something.
Hi Ed,
If you look closely, this is a Reuters report, not a local Nigerian newspaper's.
BigOrange From United States of America, joined Apr 2004, 2358 posts, RR: 3 Reply 9, posted (8 years 1 month 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 5898 times:
Quoting Aloha717200 (Reply 6): Forgive my ignorance....what is Bermuda II
Bermuda II is the stupid agreement signed by the British and US governments to restrict competition between the US and London, by only allowing 2 US airlines to fly into LHR
UAL747DEN From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 2225 posts, RR: 13 Reply 10, posted (8 years 1 month 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 5895 times:
Im sure that this is not going to hurt anyone in America. I would say that the US Government is going to be delighted by this news. It will take away one more headache. Nothing good comes from this crime ridden place.
777ER From New Zealand, joined Dec 2003, 11319 posts, RR: 17 Reply 11, posted (8 years 1 month 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 5830 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW FORUM MODERATOR
Quoting LTBEWR (Reply 3): Does Nigeria Airlines currently have direct flights to the USA? I would suggest Virgin Nigeria Airlines is not being allowed rights to the USA due to post-9/11 security fears. That is, fears of terrorists going via Nigeria Airlines, fears of illegal entry into the USA of crews and pax claiming asylum
Have you considered thats discrimination because of the national skin colour?, and it can be considered racial discrimination
Back to topic:
Its just a misunderstanding on Americas part
Boeing7E7 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 13, posted (8 years 1 month 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 5819 times:
Quoting ETStar (Thread starter): Nigeria has barred U.S.-based airlines from flying direct to the African nation in retaliation for a U.S. ban on Nigeria's new national carrier, Virgin Nigeria, part-owned by Britain's Virgin Group, officials said on Friday.
Behramjee From Canada, joined Aug 2003, 4447 posts, RR: 43 Reply 15, posted (8 years 1 month 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 5809 times:
it is just sad that the worlds biggest supporter of free trade and free enterprise is doing this to Virgin Nigeria. CO has more chances to quickly grab mkt share whilst VS Nigeria is in its infacy.
Anyways...do u think that due to VSs close tie up with CO in USA that it would be feeding COs domestic flights especially to IAH, IAD, LAX and ORD from EWR...or does VS Nigeria plan on flying LOS-JFK which I hope is not the case.
Skyguy From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 461 posts, RR: 0 Reply 16, posted (8 years 1 month 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 5776 times:
UAL747DEN: Totally agree with you. I lived there long time back and it's a dreadful place in terms of doing business (corruption of biblical proportions) and the US is probably safer by not allowing flights originating from there flying straight here. Anyone intent on doing something bad can just bribe their way to it, and security guards there are a joke.
"Those who talk, do not know, and those who know, do not talk."
Padcrasher From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 17, posted (8 years 1 month 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 5776 times:
The reason is a little more basic than that. Virgin Nigeria is half owned by Nigerian cronies affiliated with the Government. (One of the most corrupt goverments in the World) Keeping out competition ensures they will still get a good chunk of the revenue via London anyway. They keep their money, passengers pay higher prices and must connect.
Argonaut From UK - Scotland, joined Dec 2004, 417 posts, RR: 1 Reply 18, posted (8 years 1 month 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 5757 times:
Let's see...
Maybe I'm misunderstanding how these things work, but...
If Virgin Nigeria is 49% owned by Virgin Atlantic...
and Virgin Atlantic is 49% owned by Singapore Airlines...
doesn't that mean that Virgin Nigeria is only 24.99% British-owned...?
I'm not sure just why 24.99% (not to mention a Nigerian HQ) makes it sufficiently "British" to be defined as such under Bermuda II, but I'm all ears if someone cares to tell me.
Looks to me like the USA's usual penchant for commercial bullying, and not being above twisting the facts (spin?) to make it work for them. Capitalism---ya gotta love it!
Padcrasher From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 19, posted (8 years 1 month 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 5710 times:
Your'e sort of making the argument the US is. If you boiled down all the owners here in all the airlines involved and all the companies that own shares of these airlines to the lowest common denominator Virgin Nigeria is likely majority British owned.
B747-437B From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 20, posted (8 years 1 month 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 5703 times:
Quoting Argonaut (Reply 18): Maybe I'm misunderstanding how these things work,
There are two conditions that need to be satisfied under the US-Nigeria open skies bilateral. These are "substantial ownership" and "effective control".
The US accepts that Virgin Nigeria has demonstrated "substantial ownership". The burden is on Virgin Nigeria to demonstrate "effective control".
777ER From New Zealand, joined Dec 2003, 11319 posts, RR: 17 Reply 21, posted (8 years 1 month 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 5692 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW FORUM MODERATOR
[quote=UAL747DEN,reply=10]Im sure that this is not going to hurt anyone in America. I would say that the US Government is going to be delighted by this news.quote]
Wrong, it will hurt CO because of the US Governments stuff up. If CO had already sold tickets on the new flight then CO will have to refund, which means lost revenue.
LH423 From Canada, joined Jul 1999, 6501 posts, RR: 55 Reply 22, posted (8 years 1 month 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 5649 times:
By the US's logic, Virgin Atlantic is 49% owned by Singapore Airlines and therefore should be governed by the bilateral treaty between the US and Singapore.
LH423
« On ne voit bien qu'avec le cœur. L'essentiel est invisible pour les yeux » Antoine de Saint-Exupéry
EurostarVA From Bahrain, joined May 2002, 1296 posts, RR: 8 Reply 23, posted (8 years 1 month 4 days ago) and read 5591 times:
Quoting UAL747DEN (Reply 10): Im sure that this is not going to hurt anyone in America. I would say that the US Government is going to be delighted by this news. It will take away one more headache. Nothing good comes from this crime ridden place.
That's sheer paranoia and I would say your statement about 'nothing good coming out of Nigeria' is not far from being racist. Did you consider which primary market CO will serve on the US-LOS route? The airline is targeting energy-sector business executives who will surely make the route a success.
I would say the biggest loser in all of this will be Continental Airlines (and the US side) which is seeking to explore new and profitable overseas markets at a time when the domestic US airline industry is in crisis.
Nigeria also has a lot to gain in resuming a direct route to the US: Direct route to the biggest economy in the world, increased trade prospects, investment, etc. Nigeria's image has been devastated following decades of brutal and corrupt military rule. The new civilian government is trying to improve the image problem, cracking down on corruption, eliminating trade barriers, promoting tourism. There are positive signs that an economic recovery is underway and the government should be supported.
It's just a pity how ignorant and illogical some people can be, jumping to conclusions, judgements, before bothering to be informed.
Quoting Padcrasher (Reply 17): The reason is a little more basic than that. Virgin Nigeria is half owned by Nigerian cronies affiliated with the Government. (One of the most corrupt goverments in the World) Keeping out competition ensures they will still get a good chunk of the revenue via London anyway. They keep their money, passengers pay higher prices and must connect.
That is not correct. 51% of Virgin Nigeria's share capital was recently sold off in a private placement to well-respected Nigerian conglomerates, such as Nigerian Breweries, Dantata Group, among others. The process was arranged by Investment Banking & Trust Company (IBTC).
Soups From Ghana, joined Jun 2004, 3437 posts, RR: 15 Reply 24, posted (8 years 1 month 4 days ago) and read 5570 times:
51% of VNA is nigerian owned while 49% is VS so i dont see it as being a ''british airline''..
Next destinations, Suarabaya, beirut, paris, Accra
25 Argonaut: Point taken, although I'm still not clear how that necessarily makes it an issue under Bermuda II, if the salient agreement is actually the US-Nigeri
26 B747-437B: In effect, yes. The airline would be treated as a subsidiary interest of the airline from the parent country and as such would be governed by the app
27 KL808: I highly doubt that. Because the same can be said to the US. It all comes down to he said she said crap. This problem will be resolved in due time, b
28 B747-437B: The difference is that the US has followed due process to this point. Virgin Nigeria has never even made a filing to the US DOT attempting to demonst
29 Padcrasher: So it's not the mean Americans fault? Oh boy a lot people are going to be disappointed.
30 ETStar: It's never the mean Americans' fault! How could you even suggest that? Don't you know that 911 has changed the world?
31 Padcrasher: LOL! I know exactly where you are coming from. Agee 100% Wanna help? Stop with the knee jerk reactions every time it's US vs "insert 3rd World country
32 Behramjee: Why doesnt VS then advertise an A 343 or B 744 same plane service between JFK/EWR-LHR-LOS which is the next best thing!!! This in a way good for VS Ni
33 LPLAspotter: I remember being onboard a SN 310 with a technical stop in LOS before going to Yaounde. Wanting to stretch my legs, I walked to the rear of the cabin
34 ScottB: Yes, you misunderstand "how these things work." Virgin Nigeria is 49%-owned by Virgin GROUP, not Virgin Atlantic. Virgin Group is Branson's conglomer
35 Dutchjet: This is a very very complicated situation that is probably best left to the lawyers and the politicians to figure out. Aside from the relevant legal i
36 B747-437B: There is no provision for "points behind" service in Bermuda II.
37 Bennett123: BIGORANGE I think that you will find that Bermuda 2 also limits UK airlines operating to the US.
38 Africawings: Quite simply put, Virgin Nigeria is not recognized by the US government as a legitimate Nigerian entity. Virgin Atlantic Airways owns 49.9 % and broug
39 Phxinterrupted: We are equally concerned about terrorists who fly into your wonderful country where you think it's okay for them to cross our borders. Your diatribe
40 Art: If the Nigerian government owns >50% of the shares in a company and that company is not recognised "by the US government as a legitimate Nigerian ent
41 Richard28: Incorrect, it is 49% owned by Virgin Atlantic, not Virgin Group. http://www.virginnigeria.com/press/pr2004-09-28.html Lets all not forget that the US
42 Lijnden: Nigeria... I think a country full of scams and criminals! Throughout the years I have received so many false business deals, it's not funny anymore. A
43 EurostarVA: Lijnden, I must say it is regrettable that every time the word Nigeria is mentioned, members of this forum rush to shout "corruption" and "crime". For
44 Douglas7Seas: What concerns me, far more than the fumblings and bumblings of politics etc in Nigeria, is the ease with which any yokel can get "asylum" etc in Canad
45 Padcrasher: Nigeria. 2004's 2nd most corrupt country in the World per Transparency International http://www.transparency.org/cpi/2004/cpi2004.en.html#cpi2004
46 AirframeAS: So? How does this affect us anyway? With all due respect, does anyone care at all?
47 EurostarVA: Apparently, Continental DOES! Maybe not yourself, but for many stakeholders of the proposed route, they care.
48 AirframeAS: I thought someone mentioned earlier above that CO abandoned the routes because of high costs of flying there, landing fees and gate fees, etc....
49 ETStar: With this forum being an aviation forum, anything that has something to do with aviation goes. Iti snot limited to aviation to the US. The US may be
50 EurostarVA: Umm....plz read the thread in full for a more accurate insight.
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