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JetBlue Mistake?  
User currently offlineAsteriskceo From United States of America, joined May 2004, 455 posts, RR: 0
Posted (9 years 4 months 1 week 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 7696 times:

Would jetBlue have been more prosperous if they had used 737-700/800 instead of the A320? The 737 is much lighter and would have had better for some airport pairs, and airports with shorter runways (I.e-Burbank).I don't intend for this to be A vs. B, I'm just curious why they didn't use the NG. It seems to me that airlines that utilize 737's as their primary plane (I.e.-Southwest, Alaska) are flourishing.input?

61 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineTrappedInMKG From United States of America, joined Dec 2007, 4 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (9 years 4 months 1 week 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 7665 times:

Without opening a can of worms, suffice it to say that B6 got a really good deal on their 320s.

User currently offlineRL757PVD From United States of America, joined Dec 1999, 4663 posts, RR: 11
Reply 2, posted (9 years 4 months 1 week 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 7657 times:

Sometimes it just comes down to who gives the better deal. For a new start-up airline with a limited amount of capital, the better deal on airplanes is most important. From what I heard, they did look at Boeing 737 1st, Airbus just offered a better deal and they couldnt refuse. In this case, any cost savings may have been outweighed by the cost of the airplanes they got from Airbus.


Experience is what you get when what you thought would work out didn't!
User currently offlineAsteriskceo From United States of America, joined May 2004, 455 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (9 years 4 months 1 week 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 7633 times:

Yes, but it may hurt them in the long run. I hope these 190s will help them out.Putting 2 dollars in will get you further than 1.

User currently offlineLUV4JFK From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 462 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (9 years 4 months 1 week 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 7621 times:

I've heard that Boeing, at least at that time, did not usually take advantage of start-up airlines looking to buy aircraft. Maybe they felt that the airline would not have last long and payments might not be received. Can't confirm if that's true or not, but it was a rumor.

LUV4JFK
 yes 



John F. Kennedy International Airport: Where America Greets The World.
User currently offlineUdo From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 5, posted (9 years 4 months 1 week 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 7578 times:

Quoting Asteriskceo (Reply 3):
Yes, but it may hurt them in the long run. I hope these 190s will help them out.

Have HP, NW or UA been hurt due to operating Airbus A32X family aircraft for many years? Get over it. And the Embraers are intended to fly to smaller airports, so can you please explain how exactly they "could help them out"??? And help them out from where? The A320s are not falling apart. *yawn*


Regards
Udo


User currently offlineAerofan From United States of America, joined Aug 2004, 1517 posts, RR: 2
Reply 6, posted (9 years 4 months 1 week 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 7551 times:

UDO, yes they have been hurt. One is in bankruptcy, two are on the verge of going there.  Smile

User currently offlineAsteriskceo From United States of America, joined May 2004, 455 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (9 years 4 months 1 week 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 7537 times:

Udo-*yawn* too tired to read the post??I'm not saying they're falling apart, I'm saying that they are much heavier than the 737. UA, HP, and NW aren't utilizing ONLY the A320. UA and HP are using the 737, hun.

User currently offlineUdo From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 8, posted (9 years 4 months 1 week 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 7467 times:

Quoting Aerofan (Reply 7):
UDO, yes they have been hurt. One is in bankruptcy, two are on the verge of going there.

And that happened because of the A320, I see...
Btw, NW and HP close to bankruptcy? Who told you that - Donald Duck?

Quoting Asteriskceo (Reply 8):
Udo-*yawn* too tired to read the post??I'm not saying they're falling apart

No you didn't, but it sounded as if the A320 would cause major trouble and the E190 is their only hope ...

Quoting Asteriskceo (Reply 8):
UA, HP, and NW aren't utilizing ONLY the A320.

But they are extremely satiesfied with the A32X series. That's the reason why they have permanently increased their orders.

Quoting Asteriskceo (Reply 8):
UA and HP are using the 737, hun.

Yeah, just strange that they have been sending masses of B737s to the desert or back to the lessor while the heavy A320s remain in service...

Btw, what's a "hun"?


Regards
Udo

[Edited 2005-04-22 21:51:50]

User currently offlinePropilotJW From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 589 posts, RR: 7
Reply 9, posted (9 years 4 months 1 week 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 7452 times:

Quoting Aerofan (Reply 7):
UDO, yes they have been hurt. One is in bankruptcy, two are on the verge of going there.



Oh! Why didn't you tell us? Finally, we know the reason that airlines go into bankruptcy, they are operating the A320. haha thats a good one. JetBlue better start getting the papers ready HAHAHA


User currently offlineNorCal From United States of America, joined Mar 2005, 2459 posts, RR: 5
Reply 10, posted (9 years 4 months 1 week 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 7426 times:

The 737NG wasn't available to UA when they wanted to buy it. Needless to say you can't blame the 32x on UAs or HPs bankruptcy, management is to blame there. Likewise you can't say that jetBlue or Frontier are succesful b/c they operate the 32x. There is an advantage to only operating one a/c type, but they are succesful b/c they have a very good buisness plan and offer great service on thier flights. Both jetBlue and Frontier were considering the 737NG (along with the 32x), but Airbus simply offered them a better deal and they took it.

User currently offlineN1120A From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 26444 posts, RR: 75
Reply 11, posted (9 years 4 months 1 week 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 7421 times:

Quoting Asteriskceo (Thread starter):
Would jetBlue have been more prosperous if they had used 737-700/800 instead of the A320?

Well, B6 has stated the desire for what has been termed an A320.5, which would be about 738 sized. Also, they would likely have fewer issues with fuel stopping on BOS-LGB and the like

Quoting Asteriskceo (Thread starter):
The 737 is much lighter and would have had better for some airport pairs, and airports with shorter runways (I.e-Burbank).

It is not MUCH lighter, just lighter. Take off performance is similar for the aircraft

Quoting Asteriskceo (Thread starter):
I'm just curious why they didn't use the NG.

Well, David Neelman himself was shocked with their selection of Airbus. He had run 2 airlines that had all 737 fleets and he planned on 738s for B6 as well. It was a matter of Airbus coming to them with an excellent offer (yes, they still pay for the planes) and Boeing ignoring to a point. It was not as bad as what Boeing did with Frontier, but the combination of factors led them to going Airbus.

Quoting Asteriskceo (Thread starter):
It seems to me that airlines that utilize 737's as their primary plane (I.e.-Southwest, Alaska) are flourishing.input?

B6 and F9 are doing just fine as primarily A32S operators. Oh, and up until recently, AS has had a rather evenly split 737/MD-80 fleet

Quoting Udo (Reply 6):
Have HP, NW or UA been hurt due to operating Airbus A32X family aircraft for many years?

Well, I wont say it is due to A32S operation, but all 3 airlines have had more than their fair share of financial trouble

Quoting Udo (Reply 9):
Btw, NW and HP close to bankruptcy? Who told you that - Donald Duck?

No, but Daffy Duck told me that HP will be in deep trouble if they go ahead with anything more than an alliance with US.

Quoting Udo (Reply 9):
Yeah, just strange that they have been sending masses of B737s to the desert or back to the lessor while the heavy A320s remain in service...

Well, might have to do something with HP's 737 fleet being quite old and UA not having enough money to cover leasing costs and the need for the greater range of their A32S as compares to their 737Classics. HP has stated that the 733s are not going anywhere for quite a while.



Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
User currently offlineAsteriskceo From United States of America, joined May 2004, 455 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (9 years 4 months 1 week 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 7319 times:

Udo-You're misreading what I say. I am not saying the A320 hurts airlines, but running the A320 on every possible route (I.e-short, long haul) in MY opinion, there are different types of aircraft for a reason, to be utilized on different routes.Different versions of the 737 have proved useful on different routes, southwest ding ding ding.

User currently offlineRichierich From United States of America, joined Nov 2000, 4248 posts, RR: 6
Reply 13, posted (9 years 4 months 1 week 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 7279 times:

Different versions of the 737 have proved useful on different routes, southwest ding ding ding

Not really, Asterisk. Southwest has different versions primarily because of the time they were purchased. They have -300s alongside -700s because so much of their fleet was comprised of -300s. Southwest would be thrilled if they could magically exchange all of their -300s for -700s but that is not the way it works. Obviously they have routes for the NG aircraft only (transcon, etc.) but ideally WN would love to have a single 737 fleet type.

As such, the A320 is also a very versatile aircraft. JetBlue has a mix of short-haul, medium-haul, and transcon routes, and the same A320 that comes off a BTV-JFK run can, in theory, load up with fuel and passengers and do a JFK-LGB flight. I realize there are limitations to what the A320 can do and certainly BOS-OAK is a stretch but it is my understanding that it is done routinely without any problems.

The E190 will allow JetBlue to tap into markets that are currently too small for a 150-seat A320. Some people think that adding a separate fleet type will sink JetBlue, others feel it will benefit the airline greatly by allowing it tap into markets not currently flown by its main competitors. As with the A320, I would expect JetBlue to operate the E190 on short, medium, and , well, longer routes. Certainly just about anywhere in Texas is within the E190's range from NYC.



None shall pass!!!!
User currently offlineScottB From United States of America, joined Jul 2000, 6751 posts, RR: 32
Reply 14, posted (9 years 4 months 1 week 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 7148 times:

Quoting Udo (Reply 9):
Btw, NW and HP close to bankruptcy?

Actually, America West came very close to a bankruptcy filing immediately after September 11. Three weeks afterwards (as of 9/30/01), they were down to $145 million in cash and short-term investments with $127 million in current (due in the subsequent 90 days) debt -- and this is even after having received $60 million in compensation from the government for the airspace shutdown. America West made the following statement in its 3Q01 report: "If AWA is unsuccessful with its efforts to obtain additional financing and restructure its existing obligations, AWA’s liquidity position will be inadequate in the short term and the Company may be forced to file for bankruptcy protection."

If they hadn't received their guaranteed loans as quicky as they did (in January, 2002), America West would have been the first U.S. major to enter bankruptcy reorganization post-9/11.

As for Northwest, while they currently have adequate liquidity, the company's debt burden remains extremely high, with nearly $18 billion in long-term debt and lease obligations.


User currently offlineTedEx From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 149 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (9 years 4 months 1 week 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 7117 times:

How is AS doing - are they really flourishing? Don't get me wrong, I'm a huge AS fan - but I believe they're still losing money and running into some labor issues as they explore cost reductions and options such as using an outsourced ramp service vendor.

User currently offlineN1120A From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 26444 posts, RR: 75
Reply 16, posted (9 years 4 months 1 week 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 7054 times:

Quoting Udo (Reply 9):
Btw, what's a "hun"?

That is a shortening for hunny, which is a coloquial spelling for honey.

Quoting Asteriskceo (Reply 13):
I am not saying the A320 hurts airlines, but running the A320 on every possible route (I.e-short, long haul) in MY opinion, there are different types of aircraft for a reason, to be utilized on different routes.

There are various versions of the A320 that are smaller. B6 felt that the A319 was too close in capacity and the A318 too heavy, so they chose the E190

Quoting Richierich (Reply 14):
Southwest has different versions primarily because of the time they were purchased. They have -300s alongside -700s because so much of their fleet was comprised of -300s. Southwest would be thrilled if they could magically exchange all of their -300s for -700s but that is not the way it works. Obviously they have routes for the NG aircraft only (transcon, etc.) but ideally WN would love to have a single 737 fleet type.

WN also has the 735, and just retired the 732.

Quoting Richierich (Reply 14):
I realize there are limitations to what the A320 can do and certainly BOS-OAK is a stretch but it is my understanding that it is done routinely without any problems.

They do BOS-LGB, though they have had problems with the westbound

Quoting TedEx (Reply 16):
How is AS doing - are they really flourishing?

They are actually making money

Quoting TedEx (Reply 16):
running into some labor issues as they explore cost reductions and options such as using an outsourced ramp service vendor.

Yeah, and outsourced MX, which really is a bad idea for them



Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
User currently offlinePetazulu From United States of America, joined Jan 2003, 701 posts, RR: 1
Reply 17, posted (9 years 4 months 1 week 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 7021 times:

This forum is soooo predictable! Wow. It gets so personal when it comes to critiquing other planes. The thread starter is just asking a question about airplanes- he is not attacking Airbus, the EU etc.!

Get over it.


User currently offlineN60659 From United States of America, joined Mar 2005, 654 posts, RR: 24
Reply 18, posted (9 years 4 months 1 week 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 6997 times:

Quoting N1120A (Reply 17):
They do BOS-LGB, though they have had problems with the westbound

Did you mean eastbound?



Nec Dextrorsum Nec Sinistrorsum
User currently offlineTedEx From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 149 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (9 years 4 months 1 week 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 6869 times:

Quoting N1120A
They are actually making money

(Sorry, this workstation has an old browser and I can't use the 'click to quote' function..)

Here's a quote from today's Seattle P-I:

Alaska Air Group Inc., operator of Alaska Airlines and Horizon Air, pledging to work toward trimming its expenses, said yesterday that its quarterly loss nearly doubled to $80.5 million.

The full text is available at:
http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/business/221147_alaska22.html


User currently offlineDutchjet From Netherlands, joined Oct 2000, 7864 posts, RR: 57
Reply 20, posted (9 years 4 months 1 week 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 6756 times:

Its simple, Airbus offered JetBlue a fantastic deal and could accommodate JetBlue's delivery requirement, so JetBlue went with the A320 over the 738. Nothing more, nothing less, JetBlue's decision to go with Airbus was strictly a business decision, and a good one at that, and JetBlue did not make a mistake with the A320.

Somtimes members here at a.net make things far more complicated than they really are: the 738 and A320 offer just about the same capacity and offer just about the same performance, so although JetBlue originally intended to go with the 738, a great deal on the A320 was impossible for JetBlue to pass up.

And, the rumors that JetBlue did not, or has not paid for the A320s are simply not true......but JetBlue did get a great deal from Airbus.


User currently offlineBoeing7E7 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 21, posted (9 years 4 months 1 week 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 6748 times:

Quoting LUV4JFK (Reply 4):
I've heard that Boeing, at least at that time, did not usually take advantage of start-up airlines looking to buy aircraft. Maybe they felt that the airline would not have last long and payments might not be received. Can't confirm if that's true or not, but it was a rumor.

It's not rumor. Boeing didn't deal with new entrants until recently. The purpose was to protect the aircraft and their established customers from being devalued.


User currently offlineN1120A From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 26444 posts, RR: 75
Reply 22, posted (9 years 4 months 1 week 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 6743 times:

Quoting N60659 (Reply 18):
Quoting N1120A (Reply 17):
They do BOS-LGB, though they have had problems with the westbound

Did you mean eastbound?

No, I meant the westbound. The jet stream goes west to east.

Quoting TedEx (Reply 19):
Here's a quote from today's Seattle P-I:

Alaska Air Group Inc., operator of Alaska Airlines and Horizon Air, pledging to work toward trimming its expenses, said yesterday that its quarterly loss nearly doubled to $80.5 million.

I believe they did make money last year. Winter is often a down time for AS

Quoting Dutchjet (Reply 20):
the 738 and A320 offer just about the same capacity and offer just about the same performance

10 seats makes a major difference, especially considering what B6 has said they want. They specifically said the A321 was too big and that they wanted something inbetween the A320 and A321. That would be a plane similar in size to the 738.

Also, the 738 does not have the same trouble as the A320 in doing transcons



Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
User currently offlineTango-Bravo From United States of America, joined Jun 2001, 3805 posts, RR: 29
Reply 23, posted (9 years 4 months 1 week 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 6721 times:

Quoting Asteriskceo (Thread starter):
It seems to me that airlines that utilize 737's as their primary plane (I.e.-Southwest, Alaska) are flourishing.input?

Alaska "flourishing?" In spite of record 1Q 2005 pax numbers and load factor, they reported a loss of a "mere" $80 million for the quarter. Moreover, while they have more 737s than any other type, their current fleet also consists of 26 MD-80s.


User currently offline777WT From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 875 posts, RR: 1
Reply 24, posted (9 years 4 months 1 week 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 6677 times:

Have you read the book Flying High?

It says how B6 ended up with Airbus A320's.

David Needleman hired an CFO from Southwest and they went to Boeing, the CFO he hired told Boeing "This is the price we're willing to pay for the 737's, do you accept?" Boeing was hesitant and refused the price citing it was too low.

Then David and the hired CFO went to Airbus to try to leverage Boeing, They looked around the A320 while Airbus was razzing about it to them. Then the CFO asked Airbus if they will honor the price which they offered Boeing, Airbus was kinda hesitant but then asked what their airline is gonna be and etc.
Then David and the CFO said to Airbus "Have you ever sold an aircraft to an airline you question it's sucess?
Airbus said yes they have. The CFO said "well see, we're in the same position"
Airbus said they will accept their price and throw in one year free maintenance.

[Edited 2005-04-23 02:35:07]

25 Post contains links TedEx : This should answer the question about how much Alaska has been making or losing: http://finance.yahoo.com/q/is?s=ALK&annual
26 Musapapaya : How much heavier is a 320 compared to a 738? I wonder...
27 N1120A : That is actually on a thread right now. A 738 is marginally heavier because it has more seats. It is something like 11kg lighter per seat than the A3
28 SuperDash : Is the 320 a mistake? No. It's a great New York-Florida airplane. Is JetBlue using it right? No. It's a terrible trans-con plane. Fuel stops are the f
29 Post contains images Udo : True, but the previous poster I replied to had suggested a relation between A320s and "hurt" airlines. Again, I agree. But please check what the prev
30 Post contains images NIKV69 : Udo! I wish I could find you in other threads beside A vs B! B6 used Airbus because of the price. Boeing doesn't dropt their pants and Airbus would ha
31 EA CO AS : Quoting N1120A They are actually making money (Sorry, this workstation has an old browser and I can't use the 'click to quote' function..) Here's a qu
32 Post contains images ATLFlyer323 : Who knows if the 737 would have been better suited for them, all we do know is they are doing perfectly fine with the A320's. With that said I don't t
33 JAM747 : There are other factors apart from aircraft type which affects the profitablity of a airline. Maybe Jetblue's problem has more to do with other factor
34 Post contains images CORULEZ05 : Considering the similarities between the airplanes, it comes down to who gave the better deal. And of course it looks like Airbus won! When an airline
35 Tango-Bravo : Neeleman himself has said that he has bet jetBlue on the 190s. Once the 190s are delivered and in service, it probably won't take long to see which w
36 Luv2fly : Problem is the 190 is considered a mainline jet and not a regional! You can not be serious saying they are running out of places to fly? Have you eve
37 Funflyer : Yeah so would that mean that Airbus could, not would, need to make some cut-backs in making the airplane, right? I think so.
38 Post contains images N1120A : That depends on whether TWFirst says the same to you. Except that it really doesn't. First, you lose economies of scale. Second, the groups they have
39 Trident2e : So don't they fly Boeing aircraft?
40 Tango-Bravo : Is this to say that jetBlue has had to make occasional unscheduled fuel stops on their non-stop transcon routes? If so, do not airlines who fly 737NG
41 Post contains images Scbriml : Yes, unlike DL, CO and AA who operate all Boeing fleets and are making such big profits.
42 AirframeAS : I'll second that! The last I checked, HP is doing ok, NW is on the edge and UA is in bankruptcy. Dude......relax.... Take a deep breath, this is not
43 Asteriskceo : Actually, I was wondering what jetBlue would have been like with the 737NG, would they be in the financial trouble they are in now? I love Airbus and
44 Leskova : Jetblue in "financial trouble"? Last I heard was that their profits had dropped - but that they were still profitable: how's that "financial trouble"
45 Udo : Since when is a profit financial trouble? Were these employees managers, pilots or who? Regards Udo
46 AirframeAS : My guess is we will never know, that is until (If ever..) B6 does make a firm order for some 737NGs then we will see how it racks up. But then again,
47 AirWillie6475 : Sorry but I have to say this A320s are better for 4 to 5 hour routes than 73G/8s. The A320s are very quiet and cabin environment is better.
48 Galapagapop : AA is making money with that all-Boeing fleet funny guy....
49 Post contains links Asteriskceo : Try some research Pilots and some supervisors
50 Asteriskceo : I believe a 54% decrease in profits to be a financial concern. Plus, did you get the release in which they said they ordered 100 Embraer 190 jets? Je
51 N1120A : There is no difference. It all depends on the person. Ops, sure, still a big loss on the net end. Still, it is not their fleet choice that really mak
52 Post contains links Havaloc : Interesting entry by Boeing's Randy in his blog about 737 vs A320. http://www.boeing.com/randy/archives/2005/02/ Having recently flown a A320, it is n
53 Leskova : Yes, a 54% drop in profits is nothing to be proud of - but "financial trouble" would be caused by a drop in profits of more than 100% and staying the
54 Luv2fly : Really so the A300's are made by who again?????????????
55 AADC10 : The A320 has a slight passenger advantage over the 737 in that the A320 is wider at the armrest level allowing for slightly wider seats and a wider ai
56 Asteriskceo : I believe it's runway 8 that you're thinking of.
57 N1120A : But the westbound stops have happened more than B6 has wanted. No, he is thinking 15. 8 is the landing runway. 15 is very rarely used, so that is not
58 Asteriskceo : 15 is often used, and 33 is very rarely used. In regards to what the jetBlue employees told me: -The 737 would have allowed for much quicker turn aro
59 N1120A : Yep, you got me. I checked Airnav and reversed them Not much quicker, but quicker none the less because of the hand loading Since the 733 came out th
60 Asteriskceo : 99.4% DR? What's that?
61 N1120A : Dispatch Reliability.
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