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A380 - PAX Upstairs/packets Down Combi?  
User currently offlineArt From United Kingdom, joined Feb 2005, 3379 posts, RR: 0
Posted (9 years 3 months 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 2792 times:

I know nothing at all about this and therefore ask the question: would A380's be amenable to a PAX skywards / packets earthwards configuration? Would suit thin PAX, fat freight routes. There seems to be a convenient physical separation in the 2 floor design which might be open to this form of configuration.

19 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlineN1120A From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 26354 posts, RR: 76
Reply 1, posted (9 years 3 months 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 2782 times:

No, because you waste too much space compared to weight uplift


Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
User currently offlineArt From United Kingdom, joined Feb 2005, 3379 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (9 years 3 months 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 2773 times:

Quoting N1120A (Reply 1):
No, because you waste too much space compared to weight uplift

I don't understand. Could you explain a little, please?


User currently offlinePatroni From Luxembourg, joined Aug 1999, 1403 posts, RR: 14
Reply 3, posted (9 years 3 months 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 2740 times:

The flows of passenger and cargo often differ. You have many routes which have only cargo demand but no pax demand at all and vice versa. On top the cargo business is uni-directional. A passenger usually returns, the cargo stays at the destination. If you take e.g. the Europe-Asia market, you have lots of freight from Asia to Europe. In the other direction the demand is very low however. So if going nonstop you would carry a main deck ful with hot air. Cargo carriers can compensate for that by choosing different routings for the east- and westbound sectors, e.g by adding one or two commercial stops on the eastbound flight to fill at least some space, but this would of course be unpopular with the passengers. For most airlines the passengers side has the bigger influence, so cargo will be left with a suboptimal solution.

Cheers,
Tom


User currently offlineN1120A From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 26354 posts, RR: 76
Reply 4, posted (9 years 3 months 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 2724 times:

Quoting Art (Reply 2):
Quoting N1120A (Reply 1):
No, because you waste too much space compared to weight uplift

I don't understand. Could you explain a little, please?

The large of the two passenger cabins on the A380 is the lower deck. You waste a whole bunch of space putting cargo down there. Putting it upstairs would likely never be certified.



Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
User currently offlineArt From United Kingdom, joined Feb 2005, 3379 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (9 years 3 months 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 2709 times:

Patroni, N1120A thank you for your explanations.

[Edited 2005-04-23 02:14:33]

User currently offlineYUL332LX From Canada, joined Feb 2004, 820 posts, RR: 1
Reply 6, posted (9 years 3 months 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 2701 times:

Quoting Art (Thread starter):
There seems to be a convenient physical separation in the 2 floor design which might be open to this form of configuration.

It's probably doable (the certification might be an issue though).

However, I think this is a case where airlines will prefer the flexibility and simply send an A330/767/777 and MD11F/74F to do the job.



E volavo, volavo felice più in alto del sole, e ancora più su mentre il mondo pian piano spariva lontano laggiù ...
User currently offlineBoeing Nut From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 7, posted (9 years 3 months 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 2547 times:

Quoting N1120A (Reply 4):
The large of the two passenger cabins on the A380 is the lower deck. You waste a whole bunch of space putting cargo down there.

Airbus once had an interior configuration on thier website that showed a combi version of the A388. It indeed had passengers on the upper deck and cargo on the main deck.

N1120, I don't quite understand your statement saying that putting cargo on the main deck would be a waste of space. Whatever the configuration, airlines will find a way to pack in passeners and/or cargo in every possible inch. A lot of cargo will fit on the main deck of the A388F/Combi.

Regards


User currently offlineBoeing Nut From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 8, posted (9 years 3 months 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 2525 times:

Found a link, but not for the combi......

http://www.airbus.com/product/a380f_cabin_layouts.asp


User currently offlineArt From United Kingdom, joined Feb 2005, 3379 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (9 years 3 months 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 2465 times:

Quoting YUL332LX (Reply 6):
Quoting Art (Thread starter):
There seems to be a convenient physical separation in the 2 floor design which might be open to this form of configuration.

It's probably doable (the certification might be an issue though).

Why would the certification be an issue?


User currently offlineKL911 From Ireland, joined Jul 2003, 5119 posts, RR: 12
Reply 10, posted (9 years 3 months 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 2458 times:

Quoting Patroni (Reply 3):
The flows of passenger and cargo often differ. You have many routes which have only cargo demand but no pax demand at all and vice versa. On top the cargo business is uni-directional. A passenger usually returns, the cargo stays at the destination. If you take e.g. the Europe-Asia market, you have lots of freight from Asia to Europe. In the other direction the demand is very low however.

You better start talking to KLM, their Combi's are cashcows, in both directions... I can see KLM ordering the 380 Combi if they ever order one anyway..

KL911



Next trip : DUB-AUH-CGK-DPS-KUL-AUH-CDG-ORK :-)
User currently offlineStarlionblue From Greenland, joined Feb 2004, 16991 posts, RR: 67
Reply 11, posted (9 years 3 months 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 2431 times:

Quoting Art (Reply 9):

Why would the certification be an issue?

The FAA has been unwilling to certify new combis. They have refused to certify any combi with cargo and pax on the same floor. So perhaps they have issues with the whole combi on two decks idea.



"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots."
User currently offlineKL911 From Ireland, joined Jul 2003, 5119 posts, RR: 12
Reply 12, posted (9 years 3 months 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 2423 times:

Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 11):
They have refused to certify any combi with cargo and pax on the same floor.

Which wouldn't be the case for the A380... I don't see any problems.

KL911



Next trip : DUB-AUH-CGK-DPS-KUL-AUH-CDG-ORK :-)
User currently offlinePatroni From Luxembourg, joined Aug 1999, 1403 posts, RR: 14
Reply 13, posted (9 years 3 months 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 2285 times:

Quoting KL911 (Reply 10):
You better start talking to KLM, their Combi's are cashcows, in both directions...

IMHO this will only work for a very limited number of citypairs (probably AMS-SFO/LAX etc). But of course you can always fill freighter capacity by dropping the rates. Just check the market rates AMS-JFK vs. JFK-AMS or AMS-HKG vs. HKG-AMS...

Cheers,
Tom


User currently offline777STL From United States of America, joined Dec 2004, 3545 posts, RR: 3
Reply 14, posted (9 years 3 months 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 2219 times:

Quoting Boeing Nut (Reply 7):
N1120, I don't quite understand your statement saying that putting cargo on the main deck would be a waste of space. Whatever the configuration, airlines will find a way to pack in passeners and/or cargo in every possible inch. A lot of cargo will fit on the main deck of the A388F/Combi.


I think he's implying that the max gross weight would be maxed out long before the lower deck capacity would be maxed out.



PHX based
User currently offlineArt From United Kingdom, joined Feb 2005, 3379 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (9 years 3 months 14 hours ago) and read 2069 times:

Quoting 777STL (Reply 14):
A lot of cargo will fit on the main deck of the A388F/Combi.


I think he's implying that the max gross weight would be maxed out long before the lower deck capacity would be maxed out.

Don't understand this comment: if the weight of PAX upstairs results in the plane maxing out before the lower deck is fully utilised for freight, would it not also be the case that maximum gross weight would be reached before you could load a full complement of PAX downstairs instead of freight? ie normal all PAX configuration

[Edited 2005-04-24 13:08:05]

User currently offlineStarlionblue From Greenland, joined Feb 2004, 16991 posts, RR: 67
Reply 16, posted (9 years 3 months 11 hours ago) and read 1961 times:

Quoting Art (Reply 15):
Quoting 777STL (Reply 14):
A lot of cargo will fit on the main deck of the A388F/Combi.


I think he's implying that the max gross weight would be maxed out long before the lower deck capacity would be maxed out.

Don't understand this comment: if the weight of PAX upstairs results in the plane maxing out before the lower deck is fully utilised for freight, would it not also be the case that maximum gross weight would be reached before you could load a full complement of PAX downstairs instead of freight? ie normal all PAX configuration

No, because cargo is more dense than pax.



"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots."
User currently offlineJRadier From Netherlands, joined Sep 2004, 4670 posts, RR: 50
Reply 17, posted (9 years 3 months 11 hours ago) and read 1935 times:

Quoting N1120A (Reply 4):
Putting it upstairs would likely never be certified.

why not? Full freighters will also have freight on the upper deck, so floorstrenght isn't an issue.

Quoting Patroni (Reply 13):
IMHO this will only work for a very limited number of citypairs (probably AMS-SFO/LAX etc

So that is why KLM around 10 combi's. So your humble opinion isn't correct. KL911 is correct, the 744M's are very profitable for KLM.



For once you have tasted flight you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards, for there you have been and ther
User currently offlinePatroni From Luxembourg, joined Aug 1999, 1403 posts, RR: 14
Reply 18, posted (9 years 3 months 2 hours ago) and read 1784 times:

Quoting JRadier (Reply 17):
So that is why KLM around 10 combi's. So your humble opinion isn't correct. KL911 is correct, the 744M's are very profitable for KLM.

Show me where KLM says that their 74M is profitable for them. Your or KL911's opinion is no measure. And did you check the freight yields on the routes I mentioned?

Cheers,
Tom

[Edited 2005-04-25 00:22:52]

User currently offlinePrebennorholm From Denmark, joined Mar 2000, 6384 posts, RR: 54
Reply 19, posted (9 years 3 months 1 hour ago) and read 1742 times:

An A380 Combi could be made, but it's not in the tube today, and will probably never be.

There are two rather different A380 versions being produced. The pax A380 and the A380F freighter.

The pax version is a long range plane with a modest payload - say 60 tonnes or so.

The freighter version is a medium range plane with a payload capability up to 150 tonnes.

To fly a pax A380 long distance with, say 30 tonnes pax load and 30 tonnes cargo would not make sense. A pax A340 plus a dedicated cargo plane (say B-757PF) accepting a fuel stop would be much more economical and be much more flexible in operation.



Always keep your number of landings equal to your number of take-offs, Preben Norholm
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