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AC Orders 777 And 787 (Part 2)  
User currently offlineRootsAir From Costa Rica, joined Feb 2005, 4186 posts, RR: 40
Posted (9 years 4 months 1 week 5 days ago) and read 16618 times:

This is a record ! The thread on AC getting 777 and 787 has been on for less than 24 hours that it already has 309 replies. In other words, for slower modems, its just hell to load up to the last replies and thus having people not be able to reply if they'd like to. I would like to open a second AC thread so as to allow the thread to be read equally well by all

Regards

BM


A man without the knowledge of his past history,culture and origins is like a tree without roots
200 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineRedFlyer From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 4319 posts, RR: 28
Reply 1, posted (9 years 4 months 1 week 5 days ago) and read 16516 times:

Personally, from reading the last several posts I think the topic is spent. But I'd love to see it continue. It's definitely had some of the most intelligent (if sometimes heated) discussions I've seen since I've joined this forum.


I'm not a racist...I hate Biden, too.
User currently offlineRj111 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 2, posted (9 years 4 months 1 week 5 days ago) and read 16495 times:

Well why we're here (and i'm still gutted), how long do they plan to keep the A343's and A333's?

User currently offlineNYC777 From United States of America, joined Jun 2004, 5753 posts, RR: 47
Reply 3, posted (9 years 4 months 1 week 5 days ago) and read 16478 times:

I heard on the conference call that the A340s and A330s will be the first to be retired so I think that by 2010 there won't be any Airbus widebodies in the AC fleet.


That which does not kill me makes me stronger.
User currently offlineKaran69 From India, joined Oct 2004, 2887 posts, RR: 18
Reply 4, posted (9 years 4 months 1 week 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 16445 times:

Would there be plans to operate YYZ-BOM once their new aircrafts arrive

User currently offlineNYC777 From United States of America, joined Jun 2004, 5753 posts, RR: 47
Reply 5, posted (9 years 4 months 1 week 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 16417 times:

Yes, they do plan to operate yyz-bom with the 772LR.


That which does not kill me makes me stronger.
User currently offlineGlom From United Kingdom, joined Apr 2005, 2815 posts, RR: 10
Reply 6, posted (9 years 4 months 1 week 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 16376 times:

So what the 772LR order book like? I remember that when the 772LR, the order book was a bigger joke than the A350's.

User currently offlineFriendlySkies From United States of America, joined Aug 2004, 4105 posts, RR: 5
Reply 7, posted (9 years 4 months 1 week 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 16352 times:

There's a HUGE difference between the 772LR and the A350.

The 777LR is a derivative of the 777 family, and has the 772ER and 773ER to support it.

The A350 is its own family...if it doesn't sell, Airbus is in some serious trouble.


User currently offlineLightsaber From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 13047 posts, RR: 100
Reply 8, posted (9 years 4 months 1 week 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 16261 times:
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Engines!

Have they been selected? GE? RR? (I didn't see in the Press release nor prior thread.)

217 of the 787's are on firm order. Wow! Boeing has a new product and some with these orders!

And may I ask the question that I didn't see the answer in part 1: Who else is left in the a350/787 market who will order in the next 5 years? My guesses: NW, AA, UA, DL, LH, AF?... I think the battle still has legs.

Congrats AC.
Lightsaber



Societies that achieve a critical mass of ideas achieve self sustaining growth; others stagnate.
User currently offlineMark_D. From Canada, joined Aug 2001, 1447 posts, RR: 5
Reply 9, posted (9 years 4 months 1 week 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 16248 times:

FriendlySkies-- The A350 is its own family...if it doesn't sell, Airbus is in some serious trouble.

The 3fitty or whatever it may morph into will sell, it hath been decreed just for domestic economy/political reasons alone among EU member states, and maybe a number of key foreign trading partners worldwide as well. Kind of just like with the major 787 launch customers themselves Smile

Having said that though, they still gotta come up with a (presumably ever-more-composite-hulled-than-before) product to actually put out there. No matter what may or may not happen technically or saleswise with the 787 from the 'other guys'.


User currently offlineAC7E7 From Canada, joined Oct 2004, 644 posts, RR: 22
Reply 10, posted (9 years 4 months 1 week 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 16244 times:

Engines to be chosen in the next 90 days.


Strategy without tactics is the slowest route to victory. Tactics without strategy is the noise before defeat.
User currently offlineAirbusCanada From Canada, joined Nov 2004, 326 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (9 years 4 months 1 week 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 16241 times:

Quoting FriendlySkies (Reply 7):
The A350 is its own family...if it doesn't sell, Airbus is in some serious trouble.

350 is not a new disign and has lot in common with boh 330 and 340 family.


User currently offlineDfwRevolution From United States of America, joined Jan 2010, 972 posts, RR: 51
Reply 12, posted (9 years 4 months 1 week 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 16203 times:

Quoting Lightsaber (Reply 8):
Have they been selected? GE? RR? (I didn't see in the Press release nor prior thread.)

Ge90-110/115 is an obvious for the 777 family.

AC doesn't have any "loyalty" I'm aware of, and the Ge90 might help the GeNX case

Quoting Lightsaber (Reply 8):
And may I ask the question that I didn't see the answer in part 1: Who else is left in the a350/787 market who will order in the next 5 years? My guesses: NW, AA, UA, DL, LH, AF?... I think the battle still has legs.

NW is rumored to be leaning heavily toward Boeing

AA, UA, DL are not in any stage of seeking to aquire new 200-300 seaters. AA would probably be the first to act, and I believe they just said they won't analyize either aircraft until 2007

LH and AF are also in no hurry to replace their A330s, but if when such an order is tendered, I don't forsee either OEM having an automatic "in"

In terms of major customers that are ordering in the near term, QR has a tender for 69 787/A350, China will likely buy A350, and ILFC orders are all likely in the future.


User currently offlineN60659 From United States of America, joined Mar 2005, 654 posts, RR: 24
Reply 13, posted (9 years 4 months 1 week 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 16150 times:

Quoting Lightsaber (Reply 8):
And may I ask the question that I didn't see the answer in part 1: Who else is left in the a350/787 market who will order in the next 5 years?

Lightsaber, there is a lot of speculation about this going on here. Hope this helps.
-N60659



Nec Dextrorsum Nec Sinistrorsum
User currently offlineGlom From United Kingdom, joined Apr 2005, 2815 posts, RR: 10
Reply 14, posted (9 years 4 months 1 week 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 16147 times:

Quoting FriendlySkies (Reply 7):

So what is the order book like?

I'm not bashing the 772LR. The 777 is my favourite, but I remember that it wasn't selling that well at first and this was often used as a retort to the A350's poor order book.


User currently offlineNASCARAirforce From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 3178 posts, RR: 4
Reply 15, posted (9 years 4 months 1 week 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 16073 times:

Quoting RootsAir (Thread starter):
This is a record ! The thread on AC getting 777 and 787 has been on for less than 24 hours that it already has 309 replies. In other words, for slower modems, its just hell to load up to the last replies and thus having people not be able to reply if they'd like to. I would like to open a second AC thread so as to allow the thread to be read equally well by all

Wait until Northwest finally announces the official DC-9 replacement, you will see an even longer thread.


User currently offlineRedFlyer From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 4319 posts, RR: 28
Reply 16, posted (9 years 4 months 1 week 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 16061 times:

Quoting DfwRevolution (Reply 12):
AA, UA, DL are not in any stage of seeking to aquire new 200-300 seaters. AA would probably be the first to act, and I believe they just said they won't analyize either aircraft until 2007

Interesting dynamics here but with the 787's production slots tied up through 2010 and stretching out further with each new order, wouldn't it be interesting if these three U.S. carriers actually end up ordering the 350 since they'll be able to get their hands on a copy before they could the 787? Imagine the boon that would be for Airbus to have three marquee clients like that on their 350 order book.



I'm not a racist...I hate Biden, too.
User currently offlineN1120A From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 26450 posts, RR: 75
Reply 17, posted (9 years 4 months 1 week 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 16049 times:

Quoting from the old thread
>Both the A345 and 772LR surpass the 787 in range and that title actually belongs to the former.<

Actually, the title belongs to the 772LR, not the A345 (even in higher gross weight form).

Quoting Glom (Reply 14):
I'm not bashing the 772LR. The 777 is my favourite, but I remember that it wasn't selling that well at first and this was often used as a retort to the A350's poor order book.

There is a major difference between what is meant to be a niche aircraft (the 772LR) that is more than covered by much more popular siblings (772ER and 773ER) and an aircraft that is meant to compete for a market of something like 2000 aircraft (A350 v. 787). The A350's order book is of serious concern to Airbus, because it represents competition for the bulk of widebody orders over the next 20 years.



Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
User currently offlineCommavia From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 11563 posts, RR: 62
Reply 18, posted (9 years 4 months 1 week 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 15995 times:

Quoting RedFlyer (Reply 16):
Interesting dynamics here but with the 787's production slots tied up through 2010 and stretching out further with each new order, wouldn't it be interesting if these three U.S. carriers actually end up ordering the 350 since they'll be able to get their hands on a copy before they could the 787?

AA will never order the A350. AA's primary objective post-9/11 is simplification, moving from 14 aircraft fleets in 2001 down to six today. AA is not going to take on a non-standard Airbus fleet and have to incur the increased maintenance, training and staffing costs. It just won't happen.

As for DL and UA, if either was going to order the A350, it would probably be UA. But, honestly, I doubt either one will ever order the A350. DL and UA are both exceedingly loyal to Boeing long-haul widebodies and the A350 would be completely non-standard with anything in the DL/UA fleet.

Quoting DfwRevolution (Reply 12):
AA would probably be the first to act, and I believe they just said they won't analyize either aircraft until 2007.

I agree that AA will probably be the next US carrier to order the 787, but I am not sure it is going to take until 2007. AA would love to offload their non-standard, maintenance-intensive A300 fleet. But, yes, I agree that regardless of when they order them, the 787 probably won't fly in bare silver metal until 2012-2013, at the earliest.


User currently offlineCommavia From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 11563 posts, RR: 62
Reply 19, posted (9 years 4 months 1 week 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 15971 times:

Just heard on the conference call: AC won't be taking delivery of their remaining A340-600 orders. Another blow to Airbus.

User currently offlinePA110 From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 2003 posts, RR: 23
Reply 20, posted (9 years 4 months 1 week 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 15926 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Has anyone checked Solnabo to see if he's still breathing?
This kind of news could give the poor guy a stroke!  eyepopping 



It's been swell, but the swelling has gone down.
User currently offlineRedFlyer From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 4319 posts, RR: 28
Reply 21, posted (9 years 4 months 1 week 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 15916 times:

Quoting Commavia (Reply 18):
DL and UA are both exceedingly loyal to Boeing long-haul widebodies and the A350 would be completely non-standard with anything in the DL/UA fleet.

Those same words were spoken with the same confidence and bravado about UA and their narrow bodies...just before they ordered 50 320's from Airbus in 1995.

With regards to the commonality issue, I think it has been over-played. Simply look at the number of carriers willing to mix the 787 with their existing fleets. The commonality argument plays well as a differentiator (think value-add), not as the primary selling point.

In any event, my original comment was made not as a definitive statement but, rather, as a what-if.

Best regards



I'm not a racist...I hate Biden, too.
User currently offlineGlom From United Kingdom, joined Apr 2005, 2815 posts, RR: 10
Reply 22, posted (9 years 4 months 1 week 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 15902 times:

So is the 772LR sales going well considering it's niche status?

User currently offlineN1120A From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 26450 posts, RR: 75
Reply 23, posted (9 years 4 months 1 week 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 15877 times:

Quoting Commavia (Reply 18):
the 787 probably won't fly in bare silver metal until 2012-2013, at the earliest.

Actually, it will never fly in bare silver metal. The fusealge will be composite, and likely black.



Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
User currently offlineCommavia From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 11563 posts, RR: 62
Reply 24, posted (9 years 4 months 1 week 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 15867 times:

Quoting RedFlyer (Reply 21):
Those same words were spoken with the same confidence and bravado about UA and their narrow bodies...just before they ordered 50 320's from Airbus in 1995.

Too true, however, I just can't see an A330/A340/A350 in United colors (let alone Delta colors). I simply don't see it happening.

Quoting RedFlyer (Reply 21):
With regards to the commonality issue, I think it has been over-played.

I don't think so. AA has done exceptionally well by simplifying their fleet and their operations. I know, I know, they are still losing money. But at least they are not in bankruptcy and their operations are actually generating positive cash flow. That is due in large part to millions in annual savings from fleet and fleet-related simplification.


25 DfwRevolution : First, at the absolute peak of 777-200ER orders/deliveries, the backlog for an order was never more than 2.5 years. The 787 will have more production
26 ComeAndGo : hold your horses !! this order doesn't mean anything. many airlines including emirates, cathay, air france and others fly both 777 and A340. emirates
27 MidnightMike : I think the person meant to say was that the A350 is a new program, based on the A330.
28 Wingman : Seems to me that Boeing doesn't need a new full time CEO. They're doing much better without one.
29 Boeing7E7 : Also Quoting from the old thread: Both the A345 and 772LR surpass the 787 in range and that title actually belongs to the former. The 340 has 7,450 (2
30 Commavia : You can paint composites. See AA's A300s before the mid-1990s. The bare metal of AA is one of the airline's most distinctive brand eliments. I am sur
31 Post contains images Lightsaber : Thanks! Wow! Prepare for a big round on this. This could be HUGE for the A350 and thus the "new Boeing" will be ready. Thanks. Wow, the 787 generates
32 N1120A : I realize that, I was just pointing out that AA would actually have to paint the planes. I personally think they are brilliant in keeping that scheme
33 Commavia : In that case, thank you. I'm sorry I was not more clear in my original post. And yes, I too think that AA's commitment to that livery (since 1968!) i
34 Post contains images Boeing7E7 : That was my point. His post in the other thread claimed the 340 smoked the 787 in range.
35 FriendlySkies : And I suppose you have some magical proof to support this claim? Because based on what I see, the A350 has sold only 10 airplanes, and no other airli
36 Post contains links ContinentalFan : In case the original thread falls off the main page: AC Orders 777 (18/18) And 787 (18/42) (by Boeing7E7 Apr 25 2005 in Civil Aviation)
37 PlanesNTrains : Thanks for your reasoned responses. Always appreciate the black and white of it. I'm pretty weak in the tech area, and I couldn't tell you the exact
38 Boeing7E7 : The 350 was made larger to offset fuel efficiency by balancing pax load and projected fuel burn. With a direct 332/333 capacity replacement they can't
39 N60659 : I guess EK is the exception as they have been pressing Boeing to increase seating for the 789 closer to 300 pax. Other than that one example, I agree
40 PanAm330 : Apparently you have not a clue in regards to AA's operations. The A300 is an absolute cash cow ex-NYC and MIA, to LatAm and the Caribbean. The 767 is
41 B707Stu : Quite true. And the 787/777 program is equivalent to the B707 coming onto the marketplace. The early signs are in, huge sales, a shift from Airbus to
42 Boeing7E7 : EK has lost their minds trying to push both Airbus and Boeing into a specific aircraft for them. Neither has matched said demands and neither should.
43 BWIA330 : I still cant believe air canada went with Boeing. Not saying that is bad or anything, but i thought they were going with Airbus all the way. I still t
44 RedFlyer : I think this is why this thread and the preceding one that was closed has generated so many (heated) responses. I don't believe anyone predicted AC w
45 Boeing7E7 : The other was closed due to bandwidth limitations of some of the members.
46 Galapagapop : AA just said their interested in the 787 after no talk from those mAAd men. They have the contract with Boeing and have 400+ deliveries left on it an
47 Gigneil : The only one of those numbers that's correct is for the 342/3. Um, the A340-500 holds 80 more passengers in a standard 3 class config than the 787-8,
48 N328KF : I think the 767-400 was profitable in and of itself. Certainly it was created for specific carriers, so why not price it accordingly? Anyhow, the USA
49 TinPusher007 : I delfinately see it as a given that AA/DL/UA/CO will order the 787 when (IF) they regain financial health. If for no other than the prestige of opera
50 Commavia : I do "have a clue" about AA. I was not discussing the revenue-generating potential of the A300, but rather the costs of the plane. It does not fit wi
51 Post contains images Accargo : There is a lot of that here today. For months now, Milton and AC have been saying that both A and B were in the running, and that AC would go with wh
52 Commavia : Me either. Don't get me wrong, I am glad that AC chose the 777/787 combo -- I think they made the right choice. I just thought that the preexisting A
53 Aa777jr : Excellent choice for AC. They are trying to limit their fleet types and purchasing the new 787 will prove very economical to their route structure. Ca
54 Post contains images Lockheed1011 : Wow!!!!!!!! That is great....................... Congrats Boeing!
55 Columbia107 : "Oh dear the Udos and Sonalbos are being hit for six in cricket terms. Just joking." "I somehow get the impression you haven't really read carefully m
56 Post contains links STT757 : CO has already ordered 10 787-800s. http://www.newairplane.com/en-US/News/ContinentalAirlinesOrder.htm[Edited 2005-04-26 02:42:31]
57 Columbia107 : "Oh dear the Udos and Sonalbos are being hit for six in cricket terms. Just joking." "I somehow get the impression you haven't really read carefully m
58 PA201 : Can anyone confirm just quick in case been brought up already, the 777 & 787 have a comonn cockpit, yes ?
59 Gigneil : No. It won't. They will be DRASTICALLY different. N
60 QFA001 : So why would AC go to the trouble of pointing out that they'll have one pilot pool for both the B777 and B787? You can't have that and be drastically
61 Gigneil : The announcements thus far from Boeing involve a cockpit with 55% more display space and a new approach to navigation... and the FBW system has additi
62 PA201 : Gagneil, Any commonality at all ? Does Bng pitch quick transition 777 787 ?
63 TexasLonghorn : A bold statement! I tend to think the 777 and 787 are a continuation of what the 707 started. The 707 revolutionized how people traveled. The 787 onl
64 PA201 : Gagneil, Thanks dude, answers my question...
65 Post contains images Gigneil : Well, assuming I'm right it does. N
66 Post contains links Mark_D. : Well here's a Boeing and Seattle-area journalist's take on the issue from a couple weeks ago, anyway: The Boeing Co. plans a 787 flight deck so simila
67 AA777 : I think Emirates is a grand exception to all the rules. Remember, they have access to cheap cheap fuel, they are state-owned, and, well, all I should
68 Gigneil : I can believe there will be a quick transition time... just not the same type rating. N
69 PA201 : Mark_D., Very relevent article - - thank you
70 Mark_D. : Yeah I don't know if it's close enough for common-type rating either. I suspect probably not that close.
71 Leelaw : They used to the say the same thing about the Japanese equity markets, look what happened to them.
72 Post contains images Lfutia : Congratulations for AC!
73 PA201 : Def not common type, but more likely 4-5 day sim conversion...better than 2-to-3 week for type-non-type conversion...think this was a big bet Boeing m
74 Sebring : Milton said in the conference call that he was certain AC got the best deal any airline has received for these aircraft. Even allowing for a little h
75 Cruiser : Are you trying to maintain that the A345 is superior to the 772LR and that it can fly further, with a heavier payload?
76 Monteycarlos : So whats to happen to the 2 A345's? They just get dumped in the desert or will AC bite the bullet and keep operating them? In that case why wouldn't
77 Commavia : Robert Milton indicated in the conference call that by the 2010-2015 timeframe, all Airbus widebodies would begin leaving the AC fleet.
78 Gigneil : What? N
79 Sebring : Air Canada's long-term debt is $4 billion, mainly comprised of aircraft leasing obligations, a good chunk of which are associated with the Airbus fle
80 NW7E7 : Good choice Air Canada!! This is very big news for the 777LR and 787 programs. I really wasn't expecting this order. I expect NW to jump on the 787 ba
81 Leelaw : According to ACE Aviation's '04 Annual Report, only the 2 A345s are owned and are 100% financed under conditional sales agreements. The 8 A333s and 8
82 Boeing7E7 : Because he's been arguing this issue for months, even though Boeing states themselves there will be a 3-5 day transition between the two. The hardwar
83 Cruiser : If Boeing is going to announce roughly $13 Billion worth of orders in the week that the A380 will fly for the first time, I wonder what they have up t
84 Boeing7E7 : Better tell Airbus. It's from their data sheets.
85 QFA001 : ... Without a common-ish type rating, AC wouldn't really be able to do a common pilot pool for the B777/787. So, despite the differences between the
86 Rp tpa : Does anyone know what the difference is between a "capital" lease and an "operating" lease?
87 DarthRandall : I don't know, bare black composite might be a pretty sweet look if they can do it so it won't look too much like USAir.
88 Cruiser : I am certainly surprised by the number of people who did not see this order going to Boeing. It has been strongly rumored (esp. around here) that Boei
89 Post contains images NYC777 : That QR, EK, SQ, and QF are all ordering 50 787s each!
90 Boeing7E7 : I think the difference is rumor vs. reality setting in.
91 CaptainCanuck : Howdy All, I've been reading the A.net forums for over a year now, and this is finally something that got me off my duff and signed up! I've imagined
92 Post contains images Mark_D. : NYC777-- That QR, EK, SQ, and QF are all ordering 50 787s each! For delivery in the 2012-2015 timeframe?! Maybe best get some used 767s sitting in the
93 2H4 : Doesn't the composite material have to be painted to protect it from UV light? 2H4
94 AC787 : Anyone know where I can get a picture of the 777 and 787 in AC colors(computer generated) thats big enough to be my wallpaper on my laptop. The one on
95 Lawgman : Air Transat transitioning to a Boeing fleet? I bet we all can't wait for 10 abreast 777 seating and 9 abreast 787 seating.
96 Post contains images FriendlySkies : Man, would that be something....literally doubling the order books for the 787 in a time span of a few days. If that didn't set off Airbus, I don't k
97 ContnlEliteCMH : Yeah, but what does Geddy Lee have to say about all this?
98 Aerobalance : An amazing order, never saw it coming...
99 Post contains images Mark_D. : FriendlySkies-- Man, would that be something....literally doubling the order books for the 787 in a time span of a few days. It's not going to happen
100 TinPusher007 : I thought they cxld that order b/c they couldn't afford it w/o concessions from employees?
101 Post contains images Jacobin777 : CaptainCanuck...welcome to the forum.. ............"in the highschool halls, in the shopping malls, be cool or be cast out"
102 Commavia : Nope. There was some talk that they might cancel the order if they didn't get the concessions from their union work groups. Apparently, those agreeme
103 Post contains images GalvanAir777 : Yes im a late arrival to this thread, but this is awesome news!!! Also the 773ER becomes the first 777-300 series for a North American carrier! Maybe
104 AirFrnt : Actually failure of either is a bad thing. This is partially because the A380 has not even made up the development costs. [blockquote] "If we fix the
105 Post contains images GQfluffy : How about a clearcoat? fluffy
106 Post contains links Mdsh00 : AC Orders 777 (18/18) And 787 (18/42) (by Boeing7E7 Apr 25 2005 in Civil Aviation) Scroll down to reply #55. Someone else posted it earlier in the ot
107 Post contains images Mark_D. : AirFrnt--So the real question is how long does Airbus have before outside vendors come back and ask for there original money back? If the A350 continu
108 AirFrnt : I dislike Miller, but thats beside the point. My point is not that Airbus is going to shut down, it is that they have a real liquidity issue. I don't
109 Post contains links YOWguy : You can listen to Miltons annoucement to the media...all 45 minutes of it. Best to use IE to listen to the webcast... Click on here... http://events.s
110 GQfluffy : Depends on how the 380 performs. The 747 almost killed Boeing. IMO the only reason Boeing stayed afloat in the early 70's was the 727. If the 380 goe
111 Sanjet : This is indeed great news. Was expected that Boeing was going to win this order ever since Milton said said he does not want a 1 manufacturer fleet la
112 AirFrnt : That's not completly true. The 747, 727 and 737 at the same time almost killed Boeing. Boeing had enough orders at first flight to pay for the progra
113 Mark_D. : AirFrnt-- My point is not that Airbus is going to shut down, it is that they have a real liquidity issue. I don't think it's anything that they can't
114 Gkpetery : Congrats to Boeing and AC!!!! I can't wait to get on the 787!
115 Post contains images AA777 : Yeah its kinda off topic, but, I agree. The A300, however old and whethered, are absolutely great for generating revenue for AA's Latin American rout
116 GQfluffy : The 727-200 flew in '67. By the time the 747 flew, the 727-200 was well into production. It was the money maker at the time. The 737 was most likely
117 Post contains images Mark_D. : AA777-- I dont think anyone really did....thats why we are all kinda stunned by it. Not all When Milty went with the Embraers last year and then in re
118 4holer : As a result of this order, does anyone else imagine a scene in a boardroom with grinning NW execs on one side of the table and sweating Airbus salesme
119 Columba : SQ773 From Spain, joined Apr 2005, 6 posts, RR: 0 Reply 309, posted Mon Apr 25 2005 23:00:22 UTC+2 and read 4780 times: Quoting Udo (Reply 304): Wait
120 Post contains links NAV20 : AA777, it 'rolled out' in February, had its maiden flight on 8 March, and is now well into the test programme. Good video on here. http://www.boeing.
121 Mark_D. : Columba, I can't see LH ordering 787s anytime soon, at least not unless say two years go by and Airbus somehow still doesn't have anything credible to
122 A330Jamaica : Interesting order from Air Canada. As I have mentioned before, it will be interesting to see how all these large aircraft orders A380, 787 etc. from a
123 United Airline : Any chance for the B 747 Advanced Combi? Or A 380? Wonder if they will replace their entire A 330/340 fleet.
124 Post contains images GQfluffy : Highly doubt it. IIRC, think I read somewhere that the FAA/JAA banned new combi's. Or I could just be blowing hot air.... fluffy
125 IMatAMS : Air Canada doesn't seem used to the idea of getting T7's yet.....Take a look at that artist impression of the 772LR.... If thats not a 340 nose... IM
126 B707Stu : You're right. What the 707 started the 777er/7E7 will take to the next level. But I think it's more than efficiencies that will be gained. It will al
127 Leelaw : A capital lease is a contract that transfers ownership of property (title) to the lessee at the end of the lease term, generally it covers a period o
128 Post contains links Keesje : Airbus: He attributed the Air Canada loss to aggressive pricing by Boeing and what he characterized as a conservative decision by the airline to go wi
129 Joni : Oh, get real. Airbus doesn't have a "liquidity issue" since they have a huge backlog of orders (I haven't checked but they may have more than Boeing)
130 Post contains links NAV20 : About the 'new technology' of the 787, people may find this article interesting.Apparently a lot of the improvements derive from work carried out on t
131 Atmx2000 : Except many of those planes were sold when the exchange rate was favorable to Airbus. The actual cost upon delivery will be higher than what Airbus p
132 Greaser : Everyone hates America, Lest we forget. From the 1950s to the -80s, Damned if we do, damned if we don't. Non-issue IMO, maybe to the rogue nations ye
133 Joni : "Of course", indeed. If you look at how large the US current account deficit (and, indeed, fiscal deficit) is relative to US exports, you can imagine
134 Post contains images Udo : Nice idea, but YYZ, DEL and MIA are all hubs already, plus YYZ-DEL is already sevred nonstop by AC. Talk about YYC-LED and will agree...but you won't
135 Leskova : Ahm... you do realise that the B7E7/B787 and B777 are just aircraft, don't you? While I love your optimism - I think you do need to get back in touch
136 Post contains images Monteycarlos : I'm not going to touch the rest of that quote other than to say that the Airbus A380 has not even flown yet, is a very large commercial venture unlik
137 Post contains images Columba : Since you are from Canada, wasn´t your "home carrier" rumored to become all Airbus ? Wasn´t there any rumors that AC will wait untill the Paris air
138 Cruiser : In my opinion, a one-manufacturer fleet could be interpreted to mean Airbus. However, Air Canada did order the Embraers, so that would negate that ar
139 A350 : They are not, or not strongly committed to Airbus. It's just, Airbus tailored what LH needed. They need a 100-200 seater narrowbody family, a regiona
140 Jet-lagged : Yeah, yeah. Only the first one or two. After a few they all taste the same. Very interesting thoughts. I'm not sure how many constraints they really
141 NAV20 : About 'liquidity', I looked up EADS, Airbus' parent company. Apparently their defence side only more or less breaks even - from the Chairman's report,
142 Monteycarlos : Are you sure that 1.030 Billion Euro profit is the profit of EADS as a whole (including the subsidiaries such as Airbus and Eurocopter) or just the p
143 Post contains links Monteycarlos : It's all available here is someone can disect it for me... EADS Financial Statements 2004 (Requires Adobe Acrobat)
144 NYC777 : I didn't know Air Transat is in the market for new airplanes? Is this true?
145 Post contains images NAV20 : Bottom of the table on page 2, Montey - 'Net Income E1,030M.' It's actually quite a low figure for a company with such huge assets, and such a high gr
146 Monteycarlos : LOL... Accounting sucks! I was about to say that I knew that the profit was 1.030 but what are the revenues on page 11 I think it was? Nevermind... i
147 NAV20 : Gross revenues are at the top of the same table - E31,761M.
148 Cruiser : so, 1030/31761 is roughly a 3.3% Return on Investment (ROI) considering the amount of capital being consumed and the enormous size of their operation.
149 Monteycarlos : Hmmm, can you do my accounting homework?
150 USAF336TFS : Thank you for your typically European Anti-American blather Joni, as I'm starting to suspect you may work for the EU trade commission. The bottom lin
151 Post contains images AirFrnt : Joni, at this point they may out delivery Boeing this year, but Boeing looks set to squish them in sales. As far as liquidity goes, as it was noted a
152 Post contains images Monteycarlos : If the oil market goes... then we may as well not worry about who is ordering what because the fuel will be more expensive than the plane! Yeah, a fa
153 NAV20 : Airfrnt, I don't think Boeing are expecting to make their fortunes out of the 747ADV. IMO they are just playing 'hardball' - what the 747ADV WILL do
154 NAV20 : Huh! Air India to order 27x787, 15x777-200ER, 8x777-200LR. This is getting ridiculous.........
155 Post contains images Cruiser : I am minoring in Accounting at University even if I am not going to be one. I must say that this is not bad to upstage the first flight of the A380.
156 Glom : So does anyone know 787 breakeven?
157 Post contains images Bmacleod : AC has shown true North American solidarity with this decision!!! I believe AC's last Boeing order was for the 767-300ER back in 1989. This order was
158 USAF336TFS : I too applaud them for that. Of course, being the better product makes that decision much easier. AC will have one of the most technologically advanc
159 Joni : Of course, since they picked Boeing's planes, they picked the better planes. Had they gone with Airbus, it would all have been a conspiracy. But they
160 Joni : Of course, since they picked Boeing's planes, they picked the better planes. Had they gone with Airbus, it would all have been a conspiracy. But they
161 Boeing7E7 : Boeing has been smart enough not to say, but the best guesses are at 350.
162 AirFrnt : That's true, but I still view even the small development cost of the 747ADV as something that would be better targetted at a 737E. I think Airbus fac
163 Post contains images UAMAYBACH1239 : The A300 is far from a cash cow for American. It can be best compared with DL and the L1011. Constant breakdowns and costly maint. AA can easily plac
164 USAF336TFS : Joni, can't bring yourself to admit that finally Airbus has an inferior or, more aptly, Boeing has a better, product, huh?[Edited 2005-04-26 19:46:51
165 Commavia : A bit off topic, but I have to take issue with this comment. While I agree that the A300s are more of a maintenance cost than a cargo revenue issue f
166 Joni : You're talking about the A380 here? However I don't think Airbus will be delivering any of them this year, or even if they are the lion's share of th
167 Post contains images Mark_D. : Bmacleod--AC has shown true North American solidarity with this decision!!!  That's why it's really politically-stinky!!! USAF336TFS--Airbus has an i
168 Accargo : Joni, AirFmt and all those other A vs B folks, did you ever actually read the title of this thread????????????? AC orders 777 and 787 Go find another
169 M27 : They can take all the time they want Mark!!!
170 Post contains images Mark_D. : M27-- They can take all the time they want Mark!!! Heh, M27!!! A year --two at the most-- oughtta about do it though
171 Post contains images USAF336TFS : Thank you Accargo!
172 TeamREGAL : Sorry, I meant to say "latter." Anyhow, I was definitely referring to the 777....and yes fellas, I know my stuff! REGAL[Edited 2005-04-26 20:52:07]
173 Post contains links TeamREGAL : The A345 has a 9,000 nm range: http://www.airbus.com/product/a340_a500_introduction.asp REGAL
174 Post contains images Glideslope : Can you imagine what this thread would be like if airlines had a 3rd choice in the 200-300 range!! I shake at the thought!!!
175 TeamREGAL : I say bring the ruckus!!
176 NYC777 : I heard around 350 units for breakeven. They can do that by 2010 easily assuming the first production aircraft is delivered in mid 2008.
177 Post contains images Boeing7E7 : Yeah, that's holding true with all the orders. Not full it doesn't.
178 VSJetstreamer : I wanna know what AC is gonna do with those new A345's they just got?!
179 AirFrnt : AC is going to try and sell them off itself. Anyone that they can't sell, Boeing is going to take off their hands.
180 TeamREGAL : Of course not...but I have to go by Airbus's published figures and not my own. REGAL
181 Post contains images Cruiser : And we all know how accurate those are Cruiser
182 CANADA05 : Hello everyone i am new to Airliners.net this is my first post i know i am a little late on this topic. First off i am sad to hear that AC went with B
183 AC777233LR : I don't know if this is just a coincidence or not but has anyone noticed that AC's order for 18 777s completely replaces all A330/340 aircraft in the
184 AC7E7 : Good god man. Airbus has a serious problem right now. They have lost out on a huge order (and I guarantee that AC will take all of its options). Had
185 Post contains images NAV20 : Welcome, CANADA05. No, you won't make any enemies just expressing your personal preference for Airbuses. You might have got some flak if you'd said t
186 Post contains images AC777233LR : Even if you were Robert Milton himself you would not be able to guarantee anything. Five years from now any number of scenarios could have played out
187 9V-SVC : I am looking forward to see the new Boeing jets in AC colours. Comparing with the A330/A340 , I feel that the 777s are good replacement jets. I wonder
188 AC777233LR : You can hedge over any period of time you like, all you have to do is find a counterparty, usually a bank, and then negotiate the terms, the bank wil
189 Pictues : That is not correct, Air Canada tried to cancell the order however Boeing did NOT let AC so they took delivery of the 6 B767-300's.
190 Hardkor : Even though I like Airbus products, I can't wait to fly the 777! Hardkor
191 GuyBetsy1 : So what are the EXACT number of aircraft and which types did AC order? I know of the 3 777-300ERs, but what about types did AC order (besides the 787s
192 USAF336TFS : I wouldn't be surprised to see Boeing, buying every available (Read: Slightly used!) 767 airframe, rebuild them to brand new condition, modify them,
193 Cruiser : Sorry, you are right. Right now, the ROI would be in the negatives buy huge amounts. In fact, it wouldn't be computable seeing as the A380 has receiv
194 AirFrnt : Hmm. That's like going over to someone elses house, knocking a bee-hive off of a tree and starting a small war, and then saying "don't hate me becaus
195 CANADA05 : I am very surprised that nobodys has responed to my coment 7U7 ( U satnds for ugly ) which means one of two things. First you agree its not much to lo
196 Cruiser : Most of us didn't reply because it is just a nickname. As well, it has officially been renamed the 787, so even when you referred to it as the 7E7, y
197 AC7E7 : I disagree. Look at the 787 order. They initially ordered 14 aircraft. They have 42 767s. If the 787 is meant to replace the 767s, it is common sense
198 Ac777233lr : My point is, anything's possible, they could replace those 42 763s with A350s if they want to as for 45 A380s that was a bit of a joke, you know AC a
199 N77014 : How about some speculation as to where the aircraft are going to be deployed? Assuming all options are exercised, my guess... From YYZ/YUL: B777-300's
200 Post contains images USAF336TFS : Beauty is truly in the eyes of the beholder. No one on this forum knows what the final shape will look like when it's frozen. But until then, I think
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