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AI Order: Please No Reevaluation, As Demanded By A  
User currently offlineMrniji From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Posted (9 years 5 months 1 week 10 hours ago) and read 5104 times:

I am stating a new thread about the heavily discussed topic, under a different thematic angle...

This question was highly discussed in the media in India, and even abroad, as I was told. Today at lunch, we discussed the issue. Let me just add some of the conclusions:

- this issue is going on since about 1998, after XXX committees have reviewed, governments have changed, reevaluated

- in particular, it was not important for the airline anymore whom to order with, but it is important when to order. The sooner, the better

I was rather in favor of Airbus. But after this issue has been pending so long, after xxx reevaluations, inquiries, Question session in Parliaments, I don't care anymore.

The main argument of mine is: A reevaluation, as demanded by Airbus, is against the interest of the airline and the county - that is the conclusion we had in the end. Rather would it be beneficial for India and AI to proceed asap and place the order formally. People who think the possible order with Boeing is unfair, please get over it. It is against the interest of Indian aviation to reevaluate again. Airbus has to accept that AI did not want the A380, and that waiting for the A350 took too long. It is the autonomy and right of india and AI to decide whom to marry here, as they have received two proposals... it may choose the merits in accordance with its preferences, be it politics, economics, technics etc

I know it is a dirty game, but the dirtiest actors were probably A and B, and not India - most such deals are dirty. So, I hope we can agree that it is in the interest of AI to proceed asap - sorry for Airbus, but I, as someone who preferred them, hope that Boeing will get the contract now - I like them too and can vey happily cope with it

It was crazy to see how bad the people who favor Boeing reacted - many have proven to be really bad winners. And it was not nice to see how Airbus supporters blame AI of not taking the right decision.. I think it is in the interest of all that both companies stay strong and create adequate employment (very important nowadays) and cooperate more rather than blackmailing each other

Maybe countries like India (Hindustan Aeronautics) and Brazil (Embraer), as well as giants like China should ally and build a third manufacturer - more competition here can't harm...

Just some thoughts, since the question kept me busy.. but main message:

PLEASE NO REEVALUATION!!! Airbus, get over it, in the interest of Indian Aviation

66 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineBa777-236 From Canada, joined Oct 2001, 674 posts, RR: 4
Reply 1, posted (9 years 5 months 1 week 10 hours ago) and read 5041 times:

I concur.

I was looking at an old airline book I had the other day, dating from the late 80's or early 90's, and it showed AI's fleet numbers. I was surprisingly shocked to see that (before the recent expansion) AI's fleet had not grown in more then a decade!!

While India is one of the fastest growing countries in the world, it amazes me that Air India is one of the SLOWEST growing airlines of the world.  hissyfit 

Really, they should have placed an order for tons of widebody planes (regardless of A or B) years ago!

Instead they keep the markets so open, so that airlines such as BA and Emirates can have tons of flights into India daily!  banghead 

There, my rant for the day is done...

Carry on.  wave 



I like British Airways! I'm not sure why, but I do! ;-)
User currently offlineFriendlySkies From United States of America, joined Aug 2004, 4107 posts, RR: 5
Reply 2, posted (9 years 5 months 1 week 10 hours ago) and read 5031 times:

I don't think you have to worry about it. Honestly, I think the AI board takes insult to what Airbus is doing, and it sure as hell won't help Airbus' case.

User currently offlineN60659 From United States of America, joined Mar 2005, 654 posts, RR: 24
Reply 3, posted (9 years 5 months 1 week 10 hours ago) and read 5002 times:

Quoting FriendlySkies (Reply 2):
I don't think you have to worry about it. Honestly, I think the AI board takes insult to what Airbus is doing, and it sure as hell won't help Airbus' case.

And with 9W and S2 waiting in the wings to order aircraft, this definitely cannot be helping Airbus' case. Scare tactics can have the effect of warding off sales.

-N60659



Nec Dextrorsum Nec Sinistrorsum
User currently offlineJaysit From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 4, posted (9 years 5 months 1 week 10 hours ago) and read 4987 times:

All it takes is one Minister on some evaluation Ministry to realize that he can make $$$ by promising Airbus a delay on the AI order.

After all, paying some Minister Rs 1-5 crores is no big deal - its just $ 200,000 - 1 million. That's chump change in comparison to $ 6.5 billion.


User currently offlineAseem From India, joined Feb 2005, 2046 posts, RR: 10
Reply 5, posted (9 years 5 months 1 week 10 hours ago) and read 4953 times:

AFAIK!! once the announcement has been made, there is simply no going back. The reason being "diplomatic fallout". Both America and Europe have been applying political pressure, and what pleases me the most is the fact that AI succumbed to the best offer in terms of planes being offered.
absolutely no regrets, in spite of $$$s flying all over the place.
rgds
VT-ASJ



ala re ala, VT-ALA ala
User currently offlinePlanemannyc From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 1008 posts, RR: 8
Reply 6, posted (9 years 5 months 1 week 9 hours ago) and read 4915 times:
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Mrniji,

Concur 100%. I actually find it insulting that Airbus is going to this length to try to reopen the evaluation process. Why are they not doing the same with Air Canada? To a degree, the Indian Government is to be blamed. It needs to make clear statements saying that it trusts the board to make the right decision. A reevaluation at this point would only hurt Air India and the flying public. Like you, Subin, I thought that the A340 / 737 mix was quite good for AI (but I am no expert) and I am sure that the board took a lot of things into consideration. When the order was announced, I was happy that a decision was made. Airbus should be ashamed of trying to pressure the government into making the board reevaluate. It's an insult to the board, and to the government and particularly to Indian citizens.

Best,

Wasim / Planemannyc


User currently offlineNYC777 From United States of America, joined Jun 2004, 5774 posts, RR: 47
Reply 7, posted (9 years 5 months 1 week 9 hours ago) and read 4866 times:

Well it looks like that people on A.Net are the only ones that are insulted by Airbus' latest tactics:

http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/articleshow/1093452.cms

Even if Airbus is usccessful in getting AI to reopen the competition I can totally see AI going again with Boeing not only because it's the best deal but to also spite Airbus. I think Airbus is effectively locking itself out of the Ai/IA market if it persists in this tactic.



That which does not kill me makes me stronger.
User currently onlineKaran69 From India, joined Oct 2004, 2891 posts, RR: 18
Reply 8, posted (9 years 5 months 1 week 9 hours ago) and read 4828 times:

For heavensake just place the order asap---Boeing/Airbus/Embraber--i really dont care, all i want is a new look to AIs rising image.

IMHO--the Paris Airshow would be a perfect place to confirm their decision


User currently offlineNYC777 From United States of America, joined Jun 2004, 5774 posts, RR: 47
Reply 9, posted (9 years 5 months 1 week 9 hours ago) and read 4789 times:

Quoting Karan69 (Reply 8):
IMHO--the Paris Airshow would be a perfect place to confirm their decision

I hope that they can firm the order at Paris but with Airbus' latest move along with the GOI usual snail like pace to approve the purchase, I'm not optimistic about that happening. Even if Airbus' appeal is denied and the GOi fast-track the approval process (somepeople here on the forum said that this would happen) then I can see the final contact being signed by September. That's fast for India!



That which does not kill me makes me stronger.
User currently offlineBA777-236 From Canada, joined Oct 2001, 674 posts, RR: 4
Reply 10, posted (9 years 5 months 1 week 7 hours ago) and read 4687 times:

Well, I lied about my rant being over.. I have one more thing to say.

Being an airline controlled/owned by India's government, why is it that they don't care about AI's image?

Or is getting bribes and/or pay-offs more important then the National Carrer's well being?  no 



I like British Airways! I'm not sure why, but I do! ;-)
User currently offlineAseem From India, joined Feb 2005, 2046 posts, RR: 10
Reply 11, posted (9 years 5 months 1 week 5 hours ago) and read 4594 times:

Quoting BA777-236 (Reply 10):
Being an airline controlled/owned by India's government, why is it that they don't care about AI's image?

well!! you've already answered yourself. Because they are govt owned. Big grin
rgds
VT-ASJ



ala re ala, VT-ALA ala
User currently offlineSammyk From United States of America, joined Oct 1999, 1690 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (9 years 5 months 1 week 5 hours ago) and read 4593 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Quoting BA777-236 (Reply 10):
Being an airline controlled/owned by India's government, why is it that they don't care about AI's image?

Yep, being the only game in town for so long they didn't have to care about theie image.

Bribes are definitely more important. Gotta get them while they can, who knows when they'll be run out of office.


User currently offlineAirish From United Kingdom, joined Aug 2004, 259 posts, RR: 1
Reply 13, posted (9 years 5 months 1 week 4 hours ago) and read 4541 times:

Looks like Air India might file a suit against airbus.

http://www.financialexpress.com/fe_full_story.php?content_id=89596



Worlds Only Reputable Airline Air India! Some Of The Least: BA, Jet (9w), Kingfisher!
User currently offlineFriendlySkies From United States of America, joined Aug 2004, 4107 posts, RR: 5
Reply 14, posted (9 years 5 months 1 week 4 hours ago) and read 4533 times:

Haha...that would be sweet. Big grin

Maybe it would finally shut them up.


User currently offlineA340roy From Germany, joined May 2004, 50 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (9 years 5 months 1 week 4 hours ago) and read 4521 times:

Just HAD to say this!!!

AI is a Govt.airline....and the govt want to keep it that way....its the hen laying golden eggs. They love demanding things from AI. AI is the only airline in India having BIG acfts...who else can come in and fly the ministers around. Which airline in the world spares 2 B747-400's for A VIP flight??? NO ONE!!!!!

I agree with most of you, i dont care whom it goes to, as long as the acfts fly safely, it really doesnt matter what make it is. But sadly, there is money to be made in the whole acquisition, there is money to be made on its insurance (did you know that AI havent been able to find a insurer for themselves, therefore extending their current already expired insurance by a month....for the last 4 months!!) there is money to be made on spares, there is money to be made the money u see an AI aircraft!!!! Thats why AI is so "precioussssss" for the GOI! And....AI dont have the money....who pays....simple, TAX-PAYERZ!!!!

Isn't it a fool-proof way to make money, Yea GOI!!! Keep going!!! no 

g'nite boys!



AR-FRA
User currently offlineMIAMIx707 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 16, posted (9 years 5 months 1 week 4 hours ago) and read 4468 times:

Quoting Mrniji (Thread starter):
I was rather in favor of Airbus. But after this issue has been pending so long, after xxx reevaluations, inquiries, Question session in Parliaments, I don't care anymore.

Apparently you cared enough to post about 4 threads regarding your displeasure for the 777s which, beyond my comprehension got like 500 replies each. I swear I only read the first when it only had about 50 replies.. that was enough for me.

Quoting Mrniji (Thread starter):
I know it is a dirty game, but the dirtiest actors were probably A and B, and not India - most such deals are dirty

Be honest, the "dirtiest actors" are Boeing and the US govt, etc. Never India, and rarely Airbus  sarcastic 

Quoting Mrniji (Thread starter):
And it was not nice to see how Airbus supporters blame AI of not taking the right decision

Looks like MrNiji just needs to accept AI didn't want to go with his beloved Airbus.. and move on

 Wink


User currently offlineMrniji From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 17, posted (9 years 5 months 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 4341 times:

Quoting BA777-236 (Reply 10):
Being an airline controlled/owned by India's government, why is it that they don't care about AI's image?



Quoting A340roy (Reply 15):
AI is so "precioussssss" for the GOI!

As you already set yourself, BA777 (and others, too)! There was a gr8 post by someone who flew AI first (paid) and set next to a lady of an AI employee who complained that people like him make it more difficult for her to get her free tickets as to her needs... AI needs to be privatized now and be taken away from the GOI, who uses the taxpayers money for establishing an airline for itself, and not for the people..

The GOI does not care about its image but about how many benefits they get for themselves and their family members..

Quoting MIAMIx707 (Reply 16):
Apparently you cared enough to post about 4 threads regarding your displeasure for the 777s which, beyond my comprehension got like 500 replies each.

I have no idea about what you have been smoking (probably some self-grown wheat which was not properly grown) - but please show me the posts you referred to.. First, I said that I am extremely happy with the selection, but was pissed about (a) how B people reacted in the: "Look, we are Americans and sooo much better than you, (b) about A supporters demanding for reevaluation... etc.. read the thread-opener carefully, that might revoke some of your wrong claims you have made - you will see that I am extremely happy with the decision - the selective quotes do not display my full opinion... even better, the last quote you use, does just say the opposite and shows that you have no idea how to read properly:

Quoting MIAMIx707 (Reply 16):
Quoting Mrniji (Thread starter):
And it was not nice to see how Airbus supporters blame AI of not taking the right decision

Looks like MrNiji just needs to accept AI didn't want to go with his beloved Airbus.. and move on

Logical thinking is nothing you have subscribed to, right?  Smile


User currently offline777ER From New Zealand, joined Dec 2003, 12192 posts, RR: 18
Reply 18, posted (9 years 5 months 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 4324 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
FORUM MODERATOR

Quoting N60659 (Reply 3):
Quoting FriendlySkies (Reply 2):
I don't think you have to worry about it. Honestly, I think the AI board takes insult to what Airbus is doing, and it sure as hell won't help Airbus' case.

And with 9W and S2 waiting in the wings to order aircraft, this definitely cannot be helping Airbus' case. Scare tactics can have the effect of warding off sales.

And threatening IA about giving their delivery slots to other waiting airlines....yea that a real way of doing business


User currently offlineMonteycarlos From Australia, joined Mar 2005, 2107 posts, RR: 28
Reply 19, posted (9 years 5 months 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 4291 times:

Quoting Mrniji (Thread starter):
PLEASE NO REEVALUATION!!! Airbus, get over it, in the interest of Indian Aviation

Don't think for a minute that Airbus now cares about the interest of AI or Indian aviation and neither does Boeing, they care about their own bottom line. Airbus lost an order and AI are unlikely to ever place an Airbus order again. That is why Airbus is making sure that the "dirty" deals as you refer to are made public (if they are dirty and IMO they probably aren't) so that airlines realise that whatever happened was wrong.

To be honest I am pretty sick of the whole topic. The amount of posts on it now have made it into a massive issue (which it probably is) but comments like "Airbus need to get over it," are being said without thought. Would anyone here say the same thing if the money was going to their own company? Would AI say it if they were in Airbus' shoes? I can bet you that they would because they are a competitive business there to make money. And when you lose out on a big contract without your product even being fully considered (as was reported) then you want to know why!

I think we all need to take the blinders off and realise there is more at stake then just national pride, be it Indian, French, American, German, British or whatever! With rumours such as under the table money deals and unfair product consideration, who are we to say who should "get over it"?



It's a beautiful night to fly like a phoenix...
User currently offlineFlying-Tiger From Germany, joined Aug 1999, 4161 posts, RR: 36
Reply 20, posted (9 years 5 months 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 4225 times:

Let them reevaluate the order - Air India decided on a different ground that the official requriements were (delivery dates, aircraft size).


Flown: A319/320/321,A332/3,A380,AT4,AT7,B732/3/4/5/7/8,B742/4,B762/763,B772,CR2,CR7,ER4,E70,E75,F50/70,M11,L15,S20
User currently offlineLeskova From Germany, joined Oct 2003, 6075 posts, RR: 70
Reply 21, posted (9 years 5 months 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 4202 times:

Quoting 777ER (Reply 18):
And threatening IA about giving their delivery slots to other waiting airlines....yea that a real way of doing business

If you actually took the time to find out what you're talking about, you wouldn't post non-sensical things such as that comment...  Yeah sure

Quoting MIAMIx707 (Reply 16):
Apparently you cared enough to post about 4 threads regarding your displeasure for the 777s which, beyond my comprehension got like 500 replies each.

While I, too, have no idea what you're talking about... could it be that you've misinterpreted these points...
Indianguy = Roy
Mrniji = Subin
Subin != Roy ("!=" as in "not equal")

Aside from that, and from knowing Subin, I can also state that you clearly have no idea what you're talking about while referring to him.

Quoting Monteycarlos (Reply 19):
Don't think for a minute that Airbus now cares about the interest of AI or Indian aviation and neither does Boeing, they care about their own bottom line.

That's what it comes down to - nothing more, nothing less.


In summation - while I, too, would have preferred this order to go the other way, I, too, think that (a) it was not a smart move by Airbus to call for this re-evaluation in such a public way, because there are always better ways to do so and (b) I, too, think that it's time to move on.

AI has, for the second time, selected the planes they want to replace their fleet with - first it was A340s, now they've decided on B777/B787s... I seriously doubt that they're going to do yet another 180° turn.

Let AI move on and focus on winning the next competition.

Regards,
Frank



Smile - it confuses people!
User currently offlineHAWK21M From India, joined Jan 2001, 31684 posts, RR: 56
Reply 22, posted (9 years 5 months 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 4187 times:

Quoting Mrniji (Thread starter):
Maybe countries like India (Hindustan Aeronautics) and Brazil (Embraer), as well as giants like China should ally and build a third manufacturer - more competition here can't harm...

There was a plan to Build a Short-Medium Commercial Aircraft involving India,Russia,China.
I wonder where that thought went  Smile

Its Important to get the Aircraft in as soon as possible & not Delay typically of GOI style.
Most Indians want to see Indian Aviation Take off.Personally I cant wait to work on the New Birds,given the opportunity  bigthumbsup 
regds
MEL



Think of the brighter side!
User currently offlineDynkrisolo From United States of America, joined Feb 2001, 1866 posts, RR: 7
Reply 23, posted (9 years 5 months 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 4140 times:

Quoting Flying-Tiger (Reply 20):
Let them reevaluate the order - Air India decided on a different ground that the official requriements were (delivery dates, aircraft size).

To sastisfy the date requirement, the 332 would be the choice. But with the 350, the 332 will soon become obsolete. Why do you think Air India should order a soon-to-be obsolete plane? Then the choice would be between the 787 and 350. Tell me which one will be available sooner? That is, which one will satisfy the date requirement better? Sizewise, the 787 met the conditions specified by Air India.

Quoting Leskova (Reply 21):
AI has, for the second time, selected the planes they want to replace their fleet with - first it was A340s, now they've decided on B777/B787s... I seriously doubt that they're going to do yet another 180� turn.

You forgot that the technical committee did originally select the 777 not the 340, but the selection was overturned.


User currently offlineB707Stu From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 918 posts, RR: 4
Reply 24, posted (9 years 5 months 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 3931 times:

Quoting Airish (Reply 13):
Looks like Air India might file a suit against airbus.

http://www.financialexpress.com/fe_f...89596

Looks like Airbus may have stepped over the line and lost AI for many years to come as a result.


25 Ba777-236 : I don't think they are "without thought". For at least the last two years, Boeing has been busy LOOSING quite a few major deals to Airbus, and frankl
26 Jacobin777 : Interesting to note that a country with the largest or 2nd largest population in the world, and one of the fastest growing aviation markets in the wor
27 FLVILLA : Has anyone thought as to why Airbus is going through all of this re-evaluation and legal aspects for this order if there wasn't something already 'odd
28 Aither : Let them do the point to point then and abandon the core routes to foreign carriers. We will see the result...
29 Aither : FLVILLA, That's because of the way AI changed their mind and took the quick decision. I think Airbus is dead for one reason : Europe is weak, USA is s
30 Leskova : No, I didn't forget that - but you seem to have forgotten the fact that the technical committee is not the only one deciding on these deals - granted
31 Post contains images MIAMIx707 : Sorry but I'm not really into weed (and wheat doesn't grow well in my area I take it you do smoke good quality home-grown herbs huh? I guess I should
32 Post contains images Leskova : Since when has that ever stopped anyone on this forum from making a comment? And, even worse: here I go again... Ahh... you must be referring to the
33 Dynkrisolo : Frank, frankly, if you want to be anal about it, I can, too. The fact is the 340 deal didn't get the final approval. So, if you made a reference of a
34 Post contains links Aseem : guys!! putting all your curiosity to rest. This Boeing deal is going to be inked sooner than expected. The Chairman of GE Capital Aviation Services (G
35 Post contains images Mrniji : Oh yes! Frank gave you the appropriate response.. we tend to call them 'rustbuckets' for ironical reasons! You should continue your targeted research
36 Monteycarlos : Don't get me wrong, I completely agree with that, in this specific case. But I am also open to the fact that perhaps the deal was not done completely
37 Post contains images MIAMIx707 : You sound like a little kid, "Mr" Niji. but hey at least you seem to have the perfect nanny in Leskova who somehow foolishly offers to give excuses f
38 Post contains images Udo : Hmmm, not so to me... It seems you have no idea who you are talking about - how about checking their several thousands of posts before making a judge
39 Post contains images Mrniji : And you sound like someone whose mummy was so pissed of by that she didn't care about him - hence no wonder you are despartely seeking every bit of a
40 Leskova : You know, I actually had a rather long reply to all of your inane comments prepared, but I decided on skipping everything in your most recent post th
41 Post contains images HAWK21M : There was an Interview with PP with NDTVs Shrinivasan Jain on Mumbai Domestic Tarmec. When is that show. PP talks about the deal,partially. regds MEL
42 AirIndiaOne : I'll look out for this show...should be telecasted on NDTV profit or NDTV soon!
43 HAWK21M : Its to be Telecast on NDTV 24x7 on Friday night 2230 hrs. regds MEL
44 SM777 : Well, lots of arguments ! Lets not forget the following : 1. The order to Boeing has been approved by the AI board. 2. If I am not wrong, the next ste
45 Shawnnyc : I think the Airbus is making such a fuss because the AI order might make some airlines think twice that the point to point strategy is dead. Thus A is
46 Post contains links and images Aseem : guys!! it seems there are going to be some issues around purchase of aircraft for AI and IC. Some of the parliamentarians from the ruling coalitions h
47 Post contains images Mrniji : Maybe, but price has to be competitive.. many peoplke would rather choose a cheap 2-stop than an expansive nonstop.. but AIs prices have always been
48 HAWK21M : Whats the status on the CVC. regds MEL
49 Post contains images Mrniji : The best would be if Boeing bribed them to speed-up the process - this is in the interest of India!   [For those who do not know what CVC is: The C
50 Post contains links Aseem : nope!! it is "Central Vigilance Commission", although corruption is on top of its agenda. Here is the link http://cvc.nic.in/ rgds VT-ASJ[Edited 2005
51 Post contains links Aseem : http://www.hindustantimes.com/news/181_1348854,0002.htm guys!! read this article. It seems that Airbus, and France in particular have taken it to hear
52 Mrniji : I read the article in the morning, and it leaves me unimpressed.. they have already proven how dumb they are.. on the one hand they complain non-econo
53 DAYflyer : Well said.
54 Post contains links Aseem : now IC is burning hole in it's pocket by not honouring its commitment to send pilots for training, as new planes are nowhere in sight.Read http://econ
55 HAWK21M : When will this ever end......Or is it just starting. This only happens in India....Time wasting.Instead get the Aircraft. regds MEL
56 Mrniji : The French Ambassador has misbehaved in making statements in regard to the deal which by all means are inappropriate. As consequence, the newspapers a
57 Atmx2000 : I am amused by the fact that the Indian newspapers refer to Airbus as a French company and Airbus planes as French jets. Some people, here on this for
58 Eha : You are going a little bit overboard...Both Air India and Indian Airlines fleet selection have been heavily political, or would I say strongly influe
59 Mrniji : you got (as mostly) the point precisely. The French are the lobbying power for A Yes, agreed, but from both sides.. as France (along with Germany and
60 WestWing : We should note that the French Ambassador claims that he was misquoted and that the Indian diplomatic corps are exhibiting restraint in pursuing this
61 RedFlyer : I don't know why Airbus and the French got so bent out of shape on this deal. From what I've read on here and in the media, the manner in which the In
62 Jasepl : Yes, Airbus are being immature. And certainly the most important thing is for Air India to get new planes, no matter who the supplier is. But come on.
63 Atmx2000 : I'm sure Boeing would have complained loudly. But I don't think you would see Boeing be quite so obnoxious for an extended period of time. And I don'
64 Aerofan : B's got a nerve! if you ask me. Can they make anyline rescind their decision on what planes to order? AM I missing something?
65 Post contains images Mrniji : Of course.. bad media, goodd French ambi! - I have 'some access' to people of the French HC here and can tell you that they are quite arrogant and th
66 N79969 : I agree with Atmx2000 in reply 63 entirely. Airbus seems to be repeating the mistake it made when it lost the narrowbody sale to ANA a few years ago.
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