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Air-India Mulls Legal Action Against Airbus  
User currently offlineMrComet From Ireland, joined Mar 2005, 505 posts, RR: 8
Posted (8 years 12 months 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 7032 times:

Not a very good marketing strategy for Airbus:

Air-India mulls legal action against Airbus
Sunday May 1 2005 00:19 IST
IANS

DUBAI: State-run international carrier Air-India (AI) on Saturday said it is considering legal action against Airbus Industrie for its statement against a $7 billion order by AI to buy 43 planes from its US rival, Boeing.

Air-India chairman and managing director V. Thulasidas, who is in Dubai for the inaugural services of Air-India Express, the budget airline started by Air India, criticised Airbus Industrie's demand for a probe into its decision to opt for Boeing planes, saying Airbus had no right to complain about the move.


The dude abides
39 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineDfwRevolution From United States of America, joined Jan 2010, 915 posts, RR: 51
Reply 1, posted (8 years 12 months 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 7019 times:




I think it's fair to say this order is now safely Boeing's

I can understand how a bridge may have been burned, but how can AI possibly press legal action for demanding a re-evaluation? Wouldn't AI simply say no?


User currently offlineMrComet From Ireland, joined Mar 2005, 505 posts, RR: 8
Reply 2, posted (8 years 12 months 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 6981 times:

Well, Airbus has implied there was corruption by saying they were denied equal treatment. That could be libelous if in fact the decision was made legitimately on cost issues. That could be grounds for a civil suit and could even be criminal in some countries. It all depends on exactly what was said and how it was said.


The dude abides
User currently offlineAtmx2000 From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 4576 posts, RR: 38
Reply 3, posted (8 years 12 months 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 6980 times:

Quoting DfwRevolution (Reply 1):
I think it's fair to say this order is now safely Boeing's

I can understand how a bridge may have been burned, but how can AI possibly press legal action for demanding a re-evaluation? Wouldn't AI simply say no?

No order is safe until there is a contract, least of all in India. The history of AI 777/A340 competition is a testament to that fact.

Airbus (and the EU and particularly France) seems to be really bitter because they thought they had snatched the deal from Boeing the last time around with their wheeling and dealing.

Did AI get more slots at CDG as a result of that round?



ConcordeBoy is a twin supremacist!! He supports quadicide!!
User currently offlineAseem From India, joined Feb 2005, 2045 posts, RR: 10
Reply 4, posted (8 years 12 months 1 day ago) and read 6893 times:

whichever way, all this haggling has spoilt the whole atmosphere. I don`t think Airbus can go anywhere with this. With so much bitterness in the air, I doubt AI can turn in favour if Airbus even if it wants to.
rgds
VT-ASJ



ala re ala, VT-ALA ala
User currently offlineTheBigOne From United Kingdom, joined Sep 2004, 240 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (8 years 12 months 22 hours ago) and read 6750 times:

I would just love to see AI take Airbus to court for libel. The truth about the decision making process would then be apparent for all to see. I for one wouldn't be surprised if personal economics far outweigh the benefits the airline will enjoy from ordering Boeing! Let battle commence!

p.s. If the order had gone Airbus' way I would be saying the same thing.



Reach for the stars - they are closer than you think!
User currently offlineGlideslope From United States of America, joined May 2004, 1595 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (8 years 12 months 22 hours ago) and read 6727 times:

Quoting TheBigOne (Reply 5):
p.s. If the order had gone Airbus' way I would be saying the same thing.

Sure you would.  Yeah sure



To know your Enemy, you must become your Enemy.” Sun Tzu
User currently offlineLehpron From United States of America, joined Jul 2001, 7028 posts, RR: 21
Reply 7, posted (8 years 12 months 22 hours ago) and read 6687 times:

Quoting MrComet (Thread starter):
legal action against Airbus Industrie for its statement against a $7 billion order

Uh...so because Airbus said something was supposedly unfair and AI could not have just told Airbus to shove it?

Quoting MrComet (Thread starter):
saying Airbus had no right to complain about the
move.

 irked 

Unless Airbus was harassing AI, I do not see the point for this pending lawsuit.



The meaning of life is curiosity; we were put on this planet to explore opportunities.
User currently offlineTheBigOne From United Kingdom, joined Sep 2004, 240 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (8 years 12 months 22 hours ago) and read 6675 times:

Quoting Glideslope (Reply 6):
Sure you would.

Glidescope - I think you have misunderstood my post. I couldn't care less as to whether AI orders A or B, as I have enjoyed many years of flying on AIs 747s and A300s/310s. However I am aware that most orders associated with AI be that Aircraft / IFE / Engines / Finance or just about anything tend to bring an amount of 'personal benefits' to the committees / individuals involved in the ordering process. In fact for years, applicants trying to join AI as cabin crew were required to 'compensate' those responsible for hiring them. The reason I suggest it would be good if AI took legal action against Airbus, is so that the true economics of any order would become far more transparent to the tax payers of India!



Reach for the stars - they are closer than you think!
User currently offlineDfwRevolution From United States of America, joined Jan 2010, 915 posts, RR: 51
Reply 9, posted (8 years 12 months 22 hours ago) and read 6665 times:

Quoting TheBigOne (Reply 5):
Let battle commence!

How about: give it a rest and let AI buy the aircraft they have been trying to buy for 15 years.

Did you know this fleet aquistion began with the MD-11?

Quoting TheBigOne (Reply 5):
I would just love to see AI take Airbus to court for libel

This wouldn't fit any definition of libel I'm aware of...


User currently offlineAseem From India, joined Feb 2005, 2045 posts, RR: 10
Reply 10, posted (8 years 12 months 22 hours ago) and read 6648 times:

Quoting DfwRevolution (Reply 9):

the news is that GE Capital's aircraft leasing Chair is heading to India to finalize lease for AI..so it is all done
enjoy
VT-ASJ



ala re ala, VT-ALA ala
User currently offlineTheBigOne From United Kingdom, joined Sep 2004, 240 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (8 years 12 months 22 hours ago) and read 6641 times:

DfwRevolution

Please see the comments I posted in reply to Glidescope's comments. With regards to the MD11 order - I still secretly wish that deal had gone ahead! That would have been great  Smile



Reach for the stars - they are closer than you think!
User currently offlineCo7772wuh From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 12, posted (8 years 12 months 22 hours ago) and read 6601 times:

Please forgive me for not knowing this .  confused 

Wasn't there an Airbus order for aproximately 43 a/c still pending from years ago ??? Or was that for another Indian Airline ?

If so , does this mean that the 40+ a/c order to Airbus is dead ?

 tombstone 


User currently offlineDfwRevolution From United States of America, joined Jan 2010, 915 posts, RR: 51
Reply 13, posted (8 years 12 months 21 hours ago) and read 6589 times:

Quoting Co7772wuh (Reply 12):
If so , does this mean that the 40+ a/c order to Airbus is dead ?

Those are for A32X and are not connected to this deal. I don't see why the 787/777 order would change anything.

If you want some irony... I think Boeing is appealing that order. Hold the lawyers, I don't think there is any threat of litigation yet.


User currently offlineMrniji From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 14, posted (8 years 12 months 18 hours ago) and read 6424 times:

Quoting MrComet (Reply 2):
That could be libelous if in fact the decision was made legitimately on cost issues. That could be grounds for a civil suit and could even be criminal in some countries. It all depends on exactly what was said and how it was said.

I agree.. but I wonder: what is the legal basis, and which countries' law is relevant?? I like the India of AI suing Airbus for the shamefull comments, but I do not see any legal basis - The case could not be in India, as Airbus is not registred here (???) - it could probably be in Europe.. but which country (France, Germany, European Law)? Or in front of an arbitray court of the WTO??

If someone has some idea about this, please post it.. if I have some time, I will do some legal research.. interesting question!


User currently offlineJet-lagged From United States of America, joined Mar 2002, 868 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (8 years 12 months 18 hours ago) and read 6364 times:

I'm not a lawyer, but my understanding is that if you cause someone harm, then you may be liable for damages. So, if AI could show that Airbus's comments and requests are unfounded and have caused harm (e.g. lost reputation to individuals, time and cost from managers and their airline required to deal with their whining) then the argument would be that Airbus should re-imburse.

I'm sure AI would not actually sue, they are just talking back big like when a little dog barks at you, you might raise a stick and shout. Airbus is being less than rational, less than gracious, even rude, and they are getting a response worthy of their actions. India is an independent country, and they have their own airlines not influenced by European governments. Why should Airbus feel they can push India and AI around?


User currently offlineMrComet From Ireland, joined Mar 2005, 505 posts, RR: 8
Reply 16, posted (8 years 12 months 16 hours ago) and read 6256 times:

Libel/slander is different in each country but it usually must meet these criteria:

1) It must be a statement that is false
2) That statement must be published
3) The statement must cause proveable harm or damages

In some countries, politicians and government agencies can not sue for libel because it is considered fair comment.

I suspect Jet-lagged is right -- this is just big words to scare off Airbus. I doubt in any country Airbus' comments would be considered libelous although they do not seem very smart. Airbus is acting more like a branch of a government agency than a business. Boeing may be doing some behind the scenes complaining about past awards but they are not publicly embarrassing AI or any other airline.

I am sure Boeing is not above similar tactics and I feel for any company that has to deal with a non-transparent bidding process. This is something I am sure both companies are used to. However, Airbus is failing from a public relations standpoint and looks terrible.



The dude abides
User currently offlineTrident2e From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 17, posted (8 years 12 months 15 hours ago) and read 6219 times:

Quoting DfwRevolution (Reply 1):
I think it's fair to say this order is now safely Boeing's

Airbus' strategy is based on the fact that AI doesn't actually make the decision - the Indian government does. Put enough pressure on the government and AI will do as it is told.


User currently offlineMrniji From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 18, posted (8 years 12 months 15 hours ago) and read 6202 times:

Quoting Trident2e (Reply 17):
Put enough pressure on the government and AI will do as it is told.

That might be their strategy, but I doubt that the Indian Government can be forced by Europe to do sth they won't want..! "Better piss of Europe than the US" might be what they think

I doubt too that AI will sue Airbus.. but indeed, not the best PR move


User currently offlineLeskova From Germany, joined Oct 2003, 6075 posts, RR: 70
Reply 19, posted (8 years 12 months 15 hours ago) and read 6148 times:

Quoting DfwRevolution (Reply 13):
Quoting Co7772wuh (Reply 12):
If so , does this mean that the 40+ a/c order to Airbus is dead ?

Those are for A32X and are not connected to this deal. I don't see why the 787/777 order would change anything.

They're actually also for another airline - they're for Indian Airlines, not Air India.


But in this case, somehow I am really starting to get the feeling that something is strange: first of all, I've never seen Airbus act this strange after losing a contest; being disappointed is one thing, actually issuing a statement that you were disappointed already something else (remember Boeing/Iberia); but publicly - essentially - accusing the airline of corruption? Looking back at the allegations made about some Airbus deals in the past, I'd say that if you're sitting in a glasshouse, you should undress in the dark...

But if things weren't strange enough with Airbus' behavior, now Air India actually publicly states that they're contemplating legal action against Airbus? I really don't see where both sides are trying to go with this, but - as always in situations like this one - I don't see either side coming out unscathed...

Strange times we live in...

Regards,
Frank



Smile - it confuses people!
User currently offlineACVitale From United States of America, joined Aug 2001, 922 posts, RR: 11
Reply 20, posted (8 years 12 months 14 hours ago) and read 6107 times:

I just want to know how long before we see an Indian aircraft manufacturer.

The real way to thumb the nose is to drop both and build your own.  Smile


User currently onlineDIJKKIJK From France, joined Jul 2003, 1747 posts, RR: 5
Reply 21, posted (8 years 12 months 10 hours ago) and read 5957 times:

Quoting Aseem (Reply 4):
With so much bitterness in the air, I doubt AI can turn in favour if Airbus even if it wants to.

Oh yes, of course it can. Remember that this is something like $ 6 Bn deal and Airbus will do anything for the money, bitterness or not.



Never argue with idiots. They will bring you down to their level, and beat you with experience.
User currently offlineUSAF336TFS From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 1445 posts, RR: 52
Reply 22, posted (8 years 12 months 7 hours ago) and read 5343 times:

Quoting Glideslope (Reply 6):
Quoting TheBigOne (Reply 5):
p.s. If the order had gone Airbus' way I would be saying the same thing.

Sure you would.

Ditto... Sour grapes. Just doesn't make the management at Airbus look very good. If you're in management, of any company, taking the high road is always the best way of dealing with your customers.



336th Tactical Fighter Squadron, 4th Fighter Wing, Seymour Johnson AFB
User currently offlineB742 From United Kingdom, joined Mar 2005, 3762 posts, RR: 19
Reply 23, posted (8 years 12 months 7 hours ago) and read 5301 times:

Serves Airbus right!

Rob!


User currently offlineSimProgrammer From France, joined Aug 2004, 192 posts, RR: 0
Reply 24, posted (8 years 12 months 7 hours ago) and read 5186 times:

Some might see this as a 'seves airbus right' topic, but the risk is very much with AI. Airbus's indemnity is underwritten by EC so A has very little or nothing to lose either way it goes.

This will also be on the Eurpoean financial scale and if AI loses the costs are catastrophiclly higher than it would for an A win.

I wouldnt want to be AI's Public Indemnity insurer right now... it is quite likely that AI wont get any legal case against A off the ground due to the enormous financial risk involved, AI's PI insurer would never let this go ahead unless AI itself underwrites the risk.

Afforded with a newly commited aircraft order - it's simply wont happen.



Drive a bus, an Airbus, easier than a London bus!
25 Theredbaron : If you buy a very high ticket item, you always get freebies, for example you but a Ferrari (or two heheh) and just before you put down the cash you ma
26 Commavia : I've said it before and I'll say it again: Airbus -- just let it go already!
27 KL808 : And this I think is the MAIN REASON. Why wouldn't you be pissed when a government owned airline who of course does a fair big amount of trade with bo
28 MidnightMike : Right now both parties are speaking to each other through the media & press releases. There is going to be no lawsuit, this is just a way of telling A
29 Aseem : if you look from Govt of India's perspective, the order is split, with AI (Air India) going for 50 Boeings and IC (Indian Airlines) about to place or
30 Mrniji : HAL - Hindustan Aeronatics.. google them out. Sometimes, I think that the doctrine of swadeshi (Self-sufficiency) is not that bad.. this is one of th
31 USAF336TFS : Good point... Sounds to me that some of our Airbus fans think in terms of a "I want the whole cake" mentality. Childish.
32 Post contains images Leskova : The mentality which, of course, the Boeing fans crying for a re-evaluation of Indian Airlines' Airbus order couldn't be sharing, right? In the end, I
33 USAF336TFS : I stand by what I said... I agree wholeheartedly. And I believe both airlines did just that.
34 RyanAFAMSP : I think Air India has every right to publicly condemn Airbus's actions. The accusations made by Airbus have been deeply insulting as they have been co
35 Commavia : I doubt that the US trades Boeing aircraft orders for slots at LGA and ORD.
36 Aseem : Moreover, giving slots at CDG won't tilt multi-billion dollar order in favour of Airbus. At the most AF can demand similar rights to India. The bottom
37 Mrniji : A bottle of champagne for you! Great said, I fully agree!
38 Post contains images HAWK21M : There goes our Desire of one day seeing Fresh Airbus Aircraft in AI Colours. regds MEL
39 Post contains links Airish : It looks like Airbus will have to take things further if they want to with the Indian government. http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/articleshow/10910
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