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Who Will Be The First to Cancel An A380 Order?  
User currently offlineDhefty From United States of America, joined May 2005, 599 posts, RR: 3
Posted (9 years 7 months 3 weeks 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 20608 times:

It's only my second post, but to awaken all you slumbering aviation aficionados, I propose the following scenario:

1. Who will be the first A380 customer to cancel their order?

2. When will Airbus admit that they have offered no-penalty cancellations within 12 months of delivery?

3. Who will be the first A380 customer to purchase a unit at higher than the cost of production (approximately $200 million)?

So, get up and get typing!

183 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineLeskova From Germany, joined Oct 2003, 6075 posts, RR: 70
Reply 1, posted (9 years 7 months 3 weeks 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 20540 times:

For only your second post here, you're really starting out in the worst possible way...

1) Why should any airline cancel? Aside from some people's moronic wishes that the project, and Airbus along with it, fail?
2) If you could, and I sincerely doubt you can, offer even the slightest bit of proof to that ridiculous statement (aside from "I heard that somewhere")... then, maybe - just maybe, someone might actually take the time to reply to it...
3)  rotfl   rotfl   rotfl  Are you participating in the competition to be anti-Airbus-cheerleader of the month???

Sorry, but if you want to be taken seriously, you'd better come up with questions that are worth answering.

Regards,
Frank



Smile - it confuses people!
User currently offlineMonteycarlos From Australia, joined Mar 2005, 2107 posts, RR: 28
Reply 2, posted (9 years 7 months 3 weeks 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 20464 times:

Quoting Dhefty (Thread starter):
1. Who will be the first A380 customer to cancel their order?

Probably the first US Airline that thinks they can operate this plane.

Quoting Dhefty (Thread starter):
2. When will Airbus admit that they have offered no-penalty cancellations within 12 months of delivery?

Probably when you admit that posting this was a bad idea!

Quoting Dhefty (Thread starter):
3. Who will be the first A380 customer to purchase a unit at higher than the cost of production (approximately $200 million)?

How do you know any of them haven't? Do you have an in-depth knowledge of each of the airlines fiancial deals?



It's a beautiful night to fly like a phoenix...
User currently offlineBill142 From Australia, joined Aug 2004, 8466 posts, RR: 8
Reply 3, posted (9 years 7 months 3 weeks 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 20414 times:

Quoting Dhefty (Thread starter):
3. Who will be the first A380 customer to purchase a unit at higher than the cost of production (approximately $200 million)?

I would bet that only SQ, QF and EK are paying ridiculosly cheap prices as these were the first three airlines to order


User currently offlineNAV20 From Australia, joined Nov 2003, 9909 posts, RR: 35
Reply 4, posted (9 years 7 months 3 weeks 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 20364 times:

No layman, working on press reports, could answer your questions in respect of the A380, Dhefty.

Nor answer the same questions in connection with any other manufacturer or aircraft.

Looking forward to your third post - which will hopefully contain some evidence. Otherwise, there's no future in kicking all your possible scenarios around.



"Once you have flown, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards.." - Leonardo da Vinci
User currently offlineDhefty From United States of America, joined May 2005, 599 posts, RR: 3
Reply 5, posted (9 years 7 months 3 weeks 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 20354 times:

Well, if I'm starting out in the worst possible way, then I can only improve or stay the same.

I think I'll choose the latter.

1. As far as why any airline might cancel, well, I suppose there might be many reasons, logical and illogical, but I don't really care about their reasons. I just want to know who the first might be. Concorde, 747, 1011, etc., all had their rejection slips. Who will be the first for the A380?

2. According to the Gellman, Weber, Hamlin and Aboulafia report, www.speednews.com/A380-CPA.pdf, unusual terms of cancellation have been offered to prospective buyers. Perhaps one or more of them may exercise such an option if deteriorating conditions subsequent to purchase occur.

3. Well, perhaps commercial aircraft manufacturing is a "Sporting Game", but I'm not sure cheerleaders are required. However, if you insist, I am happy to volunteer. (Pay no attention to the hairy legs.)

Me, taken seriously? More or less, kova?


User currently offlineLehpron From United States of America, joined Jul 2001, 7028 posts, RR: 21
Reply 6, posted (9 years 7 months 3 weeks 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 20299 times:

Quoting Dhefty (Thread starter):
1. Who will be the first A380 customer to cancel their order?

Look first to whomever postpones their delivery date then those who simply have not purchased yet.

Quoting Dhefty (Thread starter):
3. Who will be the first A380 customer to purchase a unit at higher than the cost of production (approximately $200 million)?

More like when, I think it is difficult to tell who, probably after these initial orders get rolled out, I donno. Try circa 2017.



The meaning of life is curiosity; we were put on this planet to explore opportunities.
User currently offlineNAV20 From Australia, joined Nov 2003, 9909 posts, RR: 35
Reply 7, posted (9 years 7 months 3 weeks 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 20276 times:

Thanks for the link, DHefty! I'd very much like to read the Gellman Report, if that is what it contains - especially about the cancellation clauses, which is a new point. All I've seen so far are the press reports.

Trouble is, though, the link doesn't work   Can you please check it, and re-post it if possible?

[Edited 2005-05-02 09:09:53]


"Once you have flown, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards.." - Leonardo da Vinci
User currently offlineDhefty From United States of America, joined May 2005, 599 posts, RR: 3
Reply 8, posted (9 years 7 months 3 weeks 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 20235 times:

Quoting Bill142 (Reply 3):
I would bet that only SQ, QF and EK are paying ridiculosly cheap prices as these were the first three airlines to order

Many insiders might take that bet. There are sheep to be shorn.

According to Gellman, et al (cited above), there are now over 110 A380's sold below cost, and very few new buyers willing to pay more than the launch customers paid.


User currently offlineAeroWesty From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 20822 posts, RR: 62
Reply 9, posted (9 years 7 months 3 weeks 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 20187 times:

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 7):
Trouble is, though, the link doesn't work

The hyperlink contained an extraneous comma at the end. This should work:

http://www.speednews.com/A380-CPA.pdf



International Homo of Mystery
User currently offlineDhefty From United States of America, joined May 2005, 599 posts, RR: 3
Reply 10, posted (9 years 7 months 3 weeks 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 20168 times:

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 7):
Trouble is, though, the link doesn't work Can you please check it, and re-post it if possible?

Try http://www.speednews.com/A380-CPA.pdf


User currently offlineNAV20 From Australia, joined Nov 2003, 9909 posts, RR: 35
Reply 11, posted (9 years 7 months 3 weeks 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 20126 times:

Thanks guys, looks like it's working now, I'll get back to you!  Smile

Welcome to A.net, DHefty. Though you may find that asking awkward questions about Airbus can be dangerous to your health! The old basic military advice tends to apply - "Whatever else yer does, keep yer bloody 'ead down......"



"Once you have flown, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards.." - Leonardo da Vinci
User currently offlineDhefty From United States of America, joined May 2005, 599 posts, RR: 3
Reply 12, posted (9 years 7 months 3 weeks 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 20026 times:

Quoting Lehpron (Reply 6):
Look first to whomever postpones their delivery date then those who simply have not purchased yet.

Are you suggesting that Sir Richard, virgin though he's not, will be the first to cancel?


User currently offlineUdo From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 13, posted (9 years 7 months 3 weeks 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 19965 times:

Quoting Dhefty (Thread starter):
1. Who will be the first A380 customer to cancel their order?

Togo Airlines, after they decided to purchase a Dragon Wings model via ILFC.  liar 

Quoting Dhefty (Thread starter):
2. When will Airbus admit that they have offered no-penalty cancellations within 12 months of delivery?

In 2067 maybe?  idea 

Quoting Dhefty (Thread starter):
3. Who will be the first A380 customer to purchase a unit at higher than the cost of production (approximately $200 million)?

The French government?  scratchchin 

Quoting Dhefty (Reply 5):
1. As far as why any airline might cancel, well, I suppose there might be many reasons, logical and illogical, but I don't really care about their reasons. I just want to know who the first might be. Concorde, 747, 1011, etc., all had their rejection slips. Who will be the first for the A380?

Try to call Nostradamus' office... sarcastic 

Quoting Dhefty (Reply 8):
According to Gellman, et al (cited above), there are now over 110 A380's sold below cost, and very few new buyers willing to pay more than the launch customers paid.

Then the end is near and Airbus will finally follow MDD, Dornier and Fokker...  crying 


Regards
Udo


User currently offlineDhefty From United States of America, joined May 2005, 599 posts, RR: 3
Reply 14, posted (9 years 7 months 3 weeks 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 19878 times:

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 11):
Welcome to A.net, DHefty. Though you may find that asking awkward questions about Airbus can be dangerous to your health

Yes, and it can be dangerous to a nation's health to risk $16 billion on a dicey project. Last year the world's automobile manufacturers produced over 65 million cars, but less than a thousand commercial airliners were made. It's a long cycle, high risk business, something that probably few politicians realize. If EADS/Airbus bets wrongly, it could impact the future of the EU itself. The "National Champion" strategy as stated by many EU advocates hasn't really been examined. If they (EU enthusiasts) don't ask the awkward questions, then its their health, not mine, that may suffer.


User currently offlineUdo From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 15, posted (9 years 7 months 3 weeks 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 19845 times:

Quoting Dhefty (Reply 14):
If EADS/Airbus bets wrongly, it could impact the future of the EU itself.

Yeah, we're on a highway to hell...  crazy 

The A380 subsidies are an investment into the future. The project has created and secured dozens of thousands of new jobs in hightech industries, at Airbus and at suppliers all over Europe. The R&D invested into the A380 by Airbus and their suppliers will help to create many new projects in aviation and other sectors.
It's better to invest some billions into future technologie than wasting billions for coal subsidies or for starting and paying senseless wars.


Regards
Udo


User currently offlineBackfire From Germany, joined Oct 2006, 0 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (9 years 7 months 3 weeks 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 19822 times:

Quoting Dhefty (Reply 12):
Are you suggesting that Sir Richard, virgin though he's not, will be the first to cancel?

There's been plenty of talk and speculation and conjecture that Virgin will cancel its A380s. As yet it hasn't and I've no evidence that it would. Although if there is such thing as a no-penalty cancellation, then I can well imagine Branson ordering the A380 for publicity purposes then dropping out of it later.


User currently offlineDhefty From United States of America, joined May 2005, 599 posts, RR: 3
Reply 17, posted (9 years 7 months 3 weeks 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 19796 times:

Quoting Udo (Reply 13):
Then the end is near and Airbus will finally follow MDD, Dornier and Fokker...

Udo, I have followed your posts for some time, but maybe tonight you're a little disjointed. Too many schnapps?

I don't have any idea who the first to cancel might be, I just want to check back in a couple of years and find out who was correct in predicting it. Since you have so many posts, I would expect you to have an expert opinion.

Actually, I called Nostrodamus in January. He assured me that the A380 would fly in March and that Air Canada, Air India and Air France would renew their fleets with Toulisian glee.


User currently offlineDhefty From United States of America, joined May 2005, 599 posts, RR: 3
Reply 18, posted (9 years 7 months 3 weeks 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 19728 times:

Quoting Udo (Reply 15):
Yeah, we're on a highway to hell...

But still, it's a long way to go, if you want to rock and roll.

Has the A380 investment done anything more than raise unrealistic
expectations on the part of the EU advocates? Blair, Chirac et al, made themselves very visible at the "Reveal". When was the last time an American president appeared at the unveiling of a Boeing jetliner? It (the reveal) gives the impression of desperation. Better to have small projects fail and be under the radar for a politician.

Wars are not really the subject, but if my father's generation could have stopped Hitler early on, would the world have been a better place?


User currently offlineUdo From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 19, posted (9 years 7 months 3 weeks 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 19710 times:

Quoting Dhefty (Reply 17):
Udo, I have followed your posts for some time, but maybe tonight you're a little disjointed. Too many schnapps?

Probably it's the heat over here, makes me sensible to..."what if" & "who will"-questions about the A380...  Wink

Quoting Dhefty (Reply 17):
I don't have any idea who the first to cancel might be, I just want to check back in a couple of years and find out who was correct in predicting it. Since you have so many posts, I would expect you to have an expert opinion.

It's just impossible to make a reliable guess. Making a guess is like gambling, totally up to luck. All airlines with A380s on order are stabile and have the busy routes to deploy it.

Quoting Dhefty (Reply 17):
Actually, I called Nostrodamus in January. He assured me that the A380 would fly in March and that Air Canada, Air India and Air France would renew their fleets with Toulisian glee.

Wow, seems he was wrong...  Wink


Regards
Udo


User currently offlineUdo From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 20, posted (9 years 7 months 3 weeks 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 19665 times:

Quoting Dhefty (Reply 18):
Has the A380 investment done anything more than raise unrealistic
expectations on the part of the EU advocates?

Yes, it has. Thousands of jobs have already been created and secured. Many suppliers, even small companies, are enthusiastic about their future. As I explained earlier, all the development and research will also be used for other projects, even apart from aviation. Synergies is the magic word.

Quoting Dhefty (Reply 18):
Blair, Chirac et al, made themselves very visible at the "Reveal". When was the last time an American president appeared at the unveiling of a Boeing jetliner? It (the reveal) gives the impression of desperation. Better to have small projects fail and be under the radar for a politician.

It's not uncommon in Europe that politicians show up when industrial projects are unveiled or started. Desperation? Definitely not the case - it was more like the opposite.

Quoting Dhefty (Reply 18):
Wars are not really the subject, but if my father's generation could have stopped Hitler early on, would the world have been a better place?

I talked about senseless wars. America's entry into WWII was necessary - a totally different case than what I meant.


Regards
Udo


User currently offlineMariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 25690 posts, RR: 85
Reply 21, posted (9 years 7 months 3 weeks 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 19669 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

I have been involved in civil aviation since the day of my birth - literally.

I was born at an Imperial Airways flying boat station. During his career, my father was Chief Engineer for two airlines.

Before I was thirteen, I had flown by myself all over Africa and the Middle East. I got to fly on the Comet 1.

In those travels, I, as a boy, depended on the kindness of aviation people, and that kindess was unfailing. As was the sense of family among all airline people.

When the two Comets crashed, none of the Pan Am or TWA station staff at Cairo or Beirut were dancing in the streets.

But I get the feeling that if the A380 had crashed on its first flight, half the posters on this website would be cheering.

I am now 64 and I have never encountered so many people so desperate for an aircraft to fail.

I find it rather sickening.

mariner



aeternum nauta
User currently offlineDhefty From United States of America, joined May 2005, 599 posts, RR: 3
Reply 22, posted (9 years 7 months 3 weeks 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 19622 times:

Quoting Udo (Reply 15):
The R&D invested into the A380 by Airbus and their suppliers will help to create many new projects in aviation and other sectors.


If the A380 project and its investment should not recoup its costs, then there is the possibility that European voters would become disillusioned about investing in aviation, and that would be a tragedy for Europe and for the US, too.


User currently offlineNomad From United Kingdom, joined Mar 2005, 56 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (9 years 7 months 3 weeks 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 19583 times:

I heard only yesterday from an employee of VS that they are looking at reducing there order from 6 aircraft with 6 options to 3 with 3 options. So maybe VS will be the first ?
Nomad  Cool


User currently offlineQANTASforever From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 24, posted (9 years 7 months 3 weeks 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 19563 times:

Mariner,

You are a bloody fantastic fellow. I could not agree more with everything you have said.

If ever there was some way I could have a "REALLY respected user" list - you would be on it.

If people here support aviation, then surely they must support the A380.
God knows people support and love aircraft that aren't always the prettiest or the biggest financial successes. Not to say Airbus is or is not either of those things - but it is a significant extension to our hobby, and we should be relishing this time in aviation history.

QFF


25 Udo : Unfortunately, in today's politics voters cannot follow the way of taxmoney anymore. So if the billions for the A380 were invested in farm subsidies
26 Dhefty : I don't agree that most a.netters want the A380 to fail. Most seem to agree that it is a fantastic accomplishment in engineering. What does come to t
27 Post contains images DRAIGONAIR : Hmm all this A380 stuff that its not going to sell etc is getting a bit old...its not even on the market..Come on guys lets just enjoy the fact that t
28 Monteycarlos : Mariner, words can't express how much I agree with you on this. Sad some people just can't get over the fact that another continent in the world can
29 Mariner : You can agree or not, it is meaningless to me. I know what I have read here on this site. The very fact that you would start a thread like this sugge
30 Dhefty : I've read and re-read your post, and I must say that you seem to contradict yourself in regards to the astuteness of the EU taxpayer. On the one hand
31 EmiratesUK : O.K O.K........ I suppose someone will cancel an order eventually, just like many airlines have done with most other aircraft. If and I mean if anyone
32 MrComet : I don't think this is an aviation issue anymore. All those airplanes you talked about and that we all loved through the ages were built by pioneers w
33 EmmenezMoi : Dhefty, you are being greedy!!
34 Mariner : When did I even raise the matter of the A350? If you are anti-Airbus, fine, although is is hard to imagine why Airbus should get less support than al
35 Joni : You guys shouldn't pay too much attention to the "report" linked to earlier in this thread. Aboulafia has been against the A380 (and most all things A
36 Udo : Ok, misunderstanding. Fact is EU taxpayers are disillusioned by the trashing of money in general. In most cases they don't know where it's going. And
37 Dhefty : You may be right in regard to "altruistic feelings", but I started this post for very different reasons, specifically to call into question the busin
38 Monteycarlos : What I find funny is this: Three years ago, people were saying it wouldn't get off the ground. Two years ago they were saying it would never be built.
39 Mariner : Oh, please, don't come holier-than-thou. At no stage have I suggested that you should not have started the thread or that the thread should be delete
40 Glom : Since you're new, we'll cut you some slack, but be advised that this is the 1,232th thread discussing what if the A380 tanks. It's getting to be very
41 Pelican : Do you have an idea about the size of the European GDP and the combined GDPs of all participating nations respectively? I guess not. It seems to me y
42 Dhefty : Perhaps you should read the Gellman, et al, report as cited above and comment on its projections. They may be way off. They may be right on. Or they
43 Post contains links Keesje : Dhefty, are you aware this Gellman A380 research report was funded by Boeing? http://technology.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,20410-1572218,00.html
44 Mariner : To what end? What shall you achieve - that Airbus will cancel the A380 program, stop making the planes and give everyone their money back? Yeh, right
45 Dhefty : Conversely, since you are not new, no slack need be supplied. But I am somewhat amazed that otherwise reasonable people don't seem to grasp that unex
46 SWISSER : i've just read the first post in "furious anger" so; *1 who will be the first to cancel 787 order? *2 Has Boeing got a decent cancellation procedure f
47 HaanZ : I've been around these forums as a lurker for years, with the odd post, and I've learnt tremendous amounts from them. At the same time, there have bee
48 Skippy777 : Qatar has put the data back to 2009. This because of the new airport that will be opened in that year. They are currently building a brand new one4 km
49 OE-LDA : I have not participated in the "why we need" - "why we do not need" the A380 so far, but now it is time to state my opinion. Of course everyone is fre
50 Glom : It would have worked better if you hadn't started this thread with the implication that the A380 is doomed to failure. If you'd started it from a more
51 Col : I will answer your questions: 1) Can't see anyone cancelling. 2) Same as Boeing accepting 787 commitments with no money down. Airbus policy is their o
52 Post contains images Monteycarlos : He sounds like Scott Carson himself!
53 Dhefty : Yes, I am well aware that a "shadow Critical Project Analysis" was funded by Boeing. Now let me ask you a related question- Are you aware that under
54 Dhefty : I am trying to stick to just the business case, and I just don't see it being a success. It seems to me that many a.netters are desperately trying to
55 Columba : This was one of the best posts ever I have read on airliners.net. No real aviation enthusiast could hope that the the A380 will become a failure. Reg
56 MrComet : I don't think ANY industry should get support. That's my point. Companies that do not fear losses are dangerous for all free trade and open competiti
57 EmmenezMoi : I've heard this point (that Airbus supposedly wouldn't be allowed to fail) several times already. But do you guys seriously think that Boeing would b
58 Post contains images Alasdaironeil : After reading most of the forums on this website since the A380 was conceived, particularly since its first flight, I can't believe the percentage of
59 RayChuang : I think the biggest concern about the A380 right now is the fact that the plane will be seriously late in deliveries. The original goal was sometime i
60 Post contains images Avek00 : Be patient folks. This question will be answered based on the A380s ability (or lack thereof) to meet its initial performance targets. The plane simpl
61 Monteycarlos : Indeed it will, at or within 5% is it? Well they could do that at great financial loss due to the contracts they have signed. A fair waste of money o
62 Revelation : It's up to each of us to decide what any of this means, so you're entitled to come to that conclusion. To me, we're really just talking about whether
63 Columba : What is wrong with these planes ? Okay maybe the A340-300 is underpowered but it is a safe plane that makes a lot of money for the airlines who fly t
64 Mrocktor : The irony: they harp about "787 technology", the game changer, as if Boeing had developed the technology for commercially viable composites over the l
65 Luisde8cd : Hmm I think many airbus fans here are playing being the "victims". If anyone dares to question anything regarding the A380 project, then you are label
66 Monteycarlos : I disagree luis, I don't think anyone is playing victim here. What you say is certainly true of most people in that when they make a comment on their
67 Schipholjfk : There have been many cancellation in the history of airliner manufacturing... so why is it not possible that for some unforseen reason one day an air
68 Avek00 : With the partial exception of the A332, NONE of those planes met their initial performance targets, being either too heavy, too short-ranged, too pay
69 Monteycarlos : Yeah actually in regards to this, I believe it will occur eventually. I was actually under the belief also that VS had postponed the delivery of thei
70 Avek00 : Unlike the other mark-missers, the margin of error is EXTREMELY small for the A380 - a miss of just a few hundred miles in range or a few thousand po
71 Bill142 : Is the Gellman report out of the USA?. Everything that comes out about the A380 from the US is bashing it and saying it will fail and will never repay
72 Art : Wasn't that because one of the airports (LAX?) was going to be late getting ready for the Fat Lady?
73 Monteycarlos : Is it 3 or 5% of each figure that they must achieve? Honestly though, it won't affect QF to dramatically. The longest non-stop route it is planned to
74 Post contains images Monteycarlos : I don't know? Maybe they thought that operating the A380 into the US would be bad publicity for the airline, so they're waiting for other routes to g
75 Bill142 : VS delayed because they needed more time for the interiors to be developed. VS being VS is probably going to something that no other airline has. Mayb
76 ChrisNH : It seems to me the first airline to cancel might well be one of the earliest to order, and also one that ordered the most: Emirates. They can cancel a
77 Mdundon : "If the US don't care about other countries' opinion on issues like the international court of justice, international weapons treaties, human rights o
78 Keesje : Mantra Definition : A sacred verbal formula repeated in prayer, meditation, or incantation, such as an invocation of a god, a magic spell, or a syllab
79 Post contains links Revelation : A little googling shows that decades of R&D paid for by EU taxpayers went towards composites research and development for Typhoon. This link says "70
80 Glom : You didn't read it very well. The release said that at this point in the development phase, the 787 was over its target weight, which is the case for
81 NorCal : Can you provide this list, I'm interested. All I have ever heard about on here is Arbus' failings and nothing of Boeing's.
82 Avek00 : The 8000nm range figure provided by Airbus is HIGHLY misleading, since it only includes pax + bags (i.e., NO cargo). Airbus did not release a range f
83 Avek00 : ...yes, in part because the A380 requires lighter cabin furnishings.
84 NAV20 : Art - you said this about Virgin delaying delivery for its A380s Oddly enough, Branson's excuse is 'blown' in, of all places, the Gellman Report. To q
85 Daedaeg : The A380 victims are out in force today. If we can't asked these sorts of topics then why even have a forum like this? Are we only allowed to discuss
86 LTBEWR : I think the initial posters asked, in a somewhat clumsy way, some interesting questions. How many of us here love/loved the L-1011 but realize that it
87 OE-LDA : That is exactly what I meant. Then, why should we not do everything to protect our interests ... Regards, OE-LDA
88 Leelaw : Amen. However, remain mindful that once you've taken the vow of unyielding boosterism (for either Airbus or Boeing) you must always wear rose colored
89 Bennett123 : I get tired of hearing the same old lines; Airbus gets non commercial funding, which Boeing does not, (oh yes). That Airbus only sell aircraft by bein
90 Glom : True enough, but like with the 787 bashing threads, they do come as just that: bashing threads. When threads start with loaded questions, they engend
91 Mdundon : I don't understand the comparison. The aforementioned decision of the US to withdraw from the ABM Treaty was made for national security reasons. How
92 NAV20 : Bennett123, I have the opposite worry. That recent and current Airbus mis-management - combined with EU support for 'pride projects' regardless of co
93 Bennett123 : I think that the main issue/problem is that the US government is happy for Boeing to dominate Military Aviation and Defence Aviation, because the US i
94 Revelation : But they don't, Lockheed (F16, F22, F35) does!
95 Burnsie28 : My hope would be EK to cancel at least some, seeing how they cant even fill up the small fleet they have now, and then they order 65-105 A380's. c'mon
96 FRAspotter : I am predicting that EK might cancel some of their 40+ A380's in the future if they find out that not so many are needed. Personally I see 40+ A380's
97 OE-LDA : Hope? Regards, OE-LDA
98 Art : At what point do people's human rights get violated in your opinion? In my opinion it is a basic tenet of any society embracing the notion of law tha
99 Post contains images Jaysit : Emirates will cancel because they will determine that the A389 is too small. They will then order 100 ex-Soviet Mriyas to ferry 1500 passengers in sty
100 Mdundon : If you would like to IM me to discuss this non-aviation topic, I will gladly do so. Having lived in the UK and France, I am well aware of the controv
101 Art : Agreed. Regards, Art
102 Alessandro : Thank you for your concern about the A380 and EU economics, but with US getting itself into a deep crisis by losing 2 Billion US$ in additional debt e
103 RkFast : I see no reason why as an aviaton enthusiast I am REQUIRED to root for the A380 to succeed. Right now the A380 is run and funded by countries and peop
104 Mdundon : Have you checked comparable EU stats? Probably not, so I did it for you: As per Eurostat, in 2003 the EU25 had a combined government debt of Euro6.17
105 Mrocktor : Blah blah blah. Are you admiting that Boeing gets government aid and countering that Airbus receives the same? It would be an extraordinary display o
106 Post contains images Solnabo : Bring on the pom-poms and miniskirts, cheerleaders from Everett! Jeeeeehhhhh.......zuz!!! Micke//SE
107 Adria : Nothing but thinking and saying "we're the best and the rest is nothing" is wrong. 80% of A380 posts are about how this aircraft is going to fail and
108 Glom : There have been a couple of bashing posts, but certainly not in the quantity wth regard to the A380. I agree that in order for discussion on this for
109 M27 : Usually try to stay out of these kind of threads, but when I see one that hits the "nail on the head" as yours does, I must commend you for it. Absol
110 Adria : ...and I'm not anti-US
111 EmiratesUK : I don't see EK cancelling any.......EK need the capacity, o.k maybe not 40+ but they could easily use them now on their India/Pakistan Europe & Austra
112 NW727251ADV : I cancelled my subscription to A.net a few weeks ago because I wasn't finding anything of real substance when I read these forums. However, I felt com
113 Post contains images Solnabo : A380 got over 150 on order and how many 744 are on the production line today I wonder? Couple of 744Freighters? It ain over til its over, my friends.
114 Post contains images Burnsie28 : yeah wouldnt want a great airline to shut down because they got too high headed
115 Solnabo : Cuz Dubai will be the largest hub in near future east-west, west-east. Just my 0,02 Micke//SE
116 Columba : Well I am happy for every Boeing and Airbus I see because I love airliners since I am 4 years old. I don´t mind if it is a American, Brazilian, Cana
117 Magyar : Dhefty, nice start, your topic is a virtual "middle finger" to the Airbii side of the crowd! It should not only be deleted, but you should also be exc
118 FriendlySkies : It's not about the airplane. It's about the company who makes the airplane. Go ask someone who builds cars for GM if they dance around and are happy
119 USAF336TFS : I fully agree FriendlySkies, and please, do not apologize for having some national pride. As a fellow American, and fellow Boeing fan, I agree with y
120 Revelation : I'm saying that it's normal for airplane makers to have both government and commercial customers. It's been that way from the days of the Wright Brot
121 Dhefty : Many a.netters like yourself, in my view, seem to confuse the engineering achievement, which is notable, with the financial risk, which is also notab
122 Post contains links Mariner : FriendlySkies: Of course, it is not wrong. The debate has never been about that. But do you want Boeing to succeed because Boeing is good - or because
123 OE-LDA : Ha, now I know what I have been missing in this thread: 9-11 !! And this is exactly what we do not need: We are Americans, that's why we are Boeing f
124 OE-LDA : The weather forecast for the weekend is lousy anyway ... Regards, OE-LDA[Edited 2005-05-03 00:02:39]
125 MIAMIx707 : Dhefty, Just be warned that whenever anybody asks any relevant questions, the perennial Airbus cheerleaders will come to the rescue. You can expect le
126 Dhefty : Well, if I'm a provocateur, then so what? It's a free discussion. And I'm not holding up my middle finger, I'm holding up my palm to say, "Slow down,
127 Mark777300 : I think that it would be impossible to figure out who would be the first airline to cancel out orders, and do agree that every new aircraft might have
128 Mariner : Well, gee, I am fascinated. At what point did I become an Airbus defender? I have never given an opinion of Airbus the company, or Airbus products. I
129 USAF336TFS : I didn't say they where mutually inclusive terms... Notice the "AND" between American and Boeing. And I'm not apologizing for either. All I'm saying
130 Post contains images MissedApproach : An interesting observation. Might this apply to Virgin Galactic as well? Dhefty, I think the questions in your post were quite neutral. I wouldn't ev
131 Braybuddy : All you A380 knockers get over it! The plane is here to stay and there's no getting away from it. . . no matter how much you hate it!!!
132 SimProgrammer : The thread title says it all. Its American wishful thinking. Can you imagine the carnage if someone non american starting a thread called 'Who will be
133 Magyar : I believe the problem with this topic is the way it expresses a certain opinion. Everyone can believe whatever s/he wants and is entitled to any opini
134 USAF336TFS : I doubt anyone wishes to get into either Euro or America bashing... I certainly do not, and I'd appreciate it if we all could avoid that. I couldn't
135 Post contains links FriendlySkies : Primaris Airlines I want Boeing to succeed because I believe they make fantasic aircraft. A quote from my last post answers your question: That is tr
136 Mariner : What can I tell you? That thread was started by NAV20, who has stated, openly and often, that the A380 will fail and that he wants it to fail quickly
137 FriendlySkies : @Mariner: That's not my point. My point is that many Airbus supporters are ripping anyone who says something negative about the A380 a new one. This i
138 Mariner : FriendlySkies: You should note that that I did not respond to anyone after post #44 until you turned up - my response to you post #122 - because I tho
139 Jet-lagged : Sorry Mariner but I must disagree as Thread Starter for that one. This thread is not (or at least was not intended) to be about the failure of the A3
140 Monteycarlos : Would it? How can you be sure of that? I'd sure like to see your information. (note that I'm not doubting it, I would simply just like to see it)
141 Mariner : However it was intended, I believe it became something else. mariner
142 LAS757300 : I've never met a European who would behave in such a disgusting manner. Personally, I like any product in NWA's silver livery, Boeing (757300!) and A
143 Jafa39 : Good on yer mariner, I totally agree, are a.netters fans of flying or a bunch of kids? lets have an a.net poll on who wants the whole A vs B mudsling
144 BuckFifty : The problem with a thread like this is that no one has any idea. Even the Gellman people are throwing out numbers that cannot be substantiated, just
145 Post contains images Udo : Care to explain why you included the A332 in the list? So that it looks longer? Smells like contradiction... That's up to interpretation... First of
146 Jet-lagged : Well I disagree with that. I think we have some idea, or we can have some idea. We are human being with minds that can look into the future and creat
147 787 : Some of you have no class in welcoming this person on his first post. What are you, so thin skinned that one can't talk about business reality and pos
148 Post contains images Iwok : At least we all agree that they got subsidies.. Yes, I remember the "this represents the EU" speech. Well said. I think most 380 bashers are upset to
149 Columba : We could discuss that, but it depends on how are the question are asked. If you can see the intention of some post here only to make one product look
150 Revelation : Maybe you can share with us your views on what the actions of airlines and airplane manufacturers have to do with the action of their governments. Yo
151 Udo : I just said that both Dubai and Emirates are run by wise guys who know what they're doing. They try to secure their future and therefore have no inte
152 Post contains images Leelaw : Until they purchase a stake in AZ? [Edited 2005-05-03 14:45:05]
153 BuckFifty : I am myself a pilot for an oft discussed airline in this forum. Some of the 'facts' I hear coming out of these annals regarding my workplace can be q
154 Toulouse : What a LOAD of ignorant rubbish. I'm so fed up listening to all this kind of stuff coming from some Americans over the past few years. If you don't k
155 Post contains images Monteycarlos : Yeah I agree. I took the time to read it and honestly, the time would have been better spent watching grass grow. Its just so easy to see through to
156 USAF336TFS : A CLASS statement from a truly classy member of this forum. I can assure you, that generally speaking, I think this is the sentiment on both sides of
157 N754PR : What a stupid topic, if this is not A vs B I dont know what is!!
158 Daedaeg : Dhefty I don't think your post was ill-intended. Too bad you received such hyper sensitive and overly emotional responses. Working for an aerospace co
159 M27 : Not to worry RKFast, you get more proof all the time that you hit the nail on the head. Thanks Toulouse for your help. Regards
160 Mrocktor : Thank you for reinforcing the point I intended to make in the first place. mrocktor
161 Dhefty : Are you saying that my post caused you to become less politically correct and less diplomatic? If that is the case, then perhaps your convictions are
162 FriendlySkies : If you read my reply, you'll see that I said many Airbus supporters. Now, I believe you stated that you either support or don't support both major ma
163 ContnlEliteCMH : Oh please. Very few people here were saying it would never fly. The vast majority of us know better because airplanes are hardly unknown technology,
164 FriendlySkies : Exactly. As a Boeing representative said, "Of course it will fly. That's what airplanes are designed to do."
165 MrComet : I don't know of too many European leaders who would agree with you. You are right that Boeing will not "fail" but they could go the route of so many
166 Mariner : It has every bearing on the A380 project. The finances of the A380 are inextricably linked with evolving Europe. The EU may be a "peculiar institutio
167 Mrocktor : Since Boeing is the last commercial airliner maker in the USA, your argument does not address the merit of the question presented. As the last commer
168 Monteycarlos : But some indeed did! I never said a majority, I said "people," and indeed as you said, "very few," people actually believed/hoped it would not fly. I
169 MrComet : That is not accurate. The poster said: I agree that the US government would likely help out a defense contractor by giving them research contracts bu
170 Shankly : So that's what 169 posts and still no evidence of a deferment, cancellation or even a murmured "bugger" from an embarrassed airline FD. Dhefty, at lea
171 Dhefty : The business case, that is, whether or not the project will provide a good return to its stakeholders really is an economic decision. When you add in
172 ContnlEliteCMH : Man, what rock do you live under? Sssshh.... Don't tell anybody that Apple's new, fine O/S hit the shelves last Friday. Or that Microsoft is struggli
173 Mariner : Um - prevailed because of a civil war, not despite a civil war. By many of the nations that were communist. Nor do I think you are aware of how close
174 Dhefty : I wonder if you may be missing the big picture (the context) yourself. First of all it is in the best interests of aviation aficionados, and more imp
175 Mariner : That is completely possible. mariner
176 Post contains images Mrniji : I am more than ever glad that we have someone of you who can tell us about all the specs, secrets etc of aviation.. what would anet be without you? A
177 Toulouse : Mariner, well done on your interesting posts. Dhefty: Thanks for your response, and don't get too big headed 'just yet anyway'... I'm sure you haven't
178 Mrocktor : I stand corrected. mrocktor
179 Dhefty : I'm sure you are correct, but at least it was the most popular in the past two days. We all get our 15 minutes of fame. Maybe mine pushed the envelop
180 Aerofan : I think this is a valid question. Right now the PR machines is trying to drum up excitement and hype the lumbering whale. But only time will tell My m
181 Hmmmm... : Any Airbus A380 thread created with a title like that, is not a thread with good intentions in heart. It is not designed to stimulate "intellectual de
182 Dhefty : Hey, why don't you read all the posts I've made in this thread, including the reasoning behind the original idea for it. Also check out reply #'s 6,7
183 NAV20 : EADS, Airbus' parent company, has its AGM next Wednesday. EADS is expected to announce sales of around E33 billion and a profit of about E2.4 billion,
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