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AA To Fly LGA-ATL?  
User currently offlineWjcandee From United States of America, joined Jun 2000, 5130 posts, RR: 22
Posted (9 years 3 months 22 hours ago) and read 5730 times:

Heard a rumor tonight that AA will be soon starting 5 flights a day LGA-ATL with MD80s and ridiculously low fares, trying to punish Airtran.

I find this dubious or extremely stupid. Given the relatively-low volume of o/d versus conx traffic on this route, they're not likely to be very full. It's the same kind of idiotic thing they did out of JFK to LGB, SNA, etc. a two summers ago, abandoning it, of course, when they got creamed. They can't get their corporate culture past the old Crandall "punish them if they dare compete with us; hit them where it hurts" mentality. Unless they plan to offer scads of conx out of ATL, it's a useless effort. Probably will cannibalize their LGA-DFW traffic (i.e. folks connecting in ATL), on which they get an insanely HIGH price.

Good luck, AA. It'll be fun watching the trail of red ink behind those MD80s!

43 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineFLYYUL From Italy, joined Jun 2000, 4970 posts, RR: 51
Reply 1, posted (9 years 3 months 22 hours ago) and read 5677 times:

Do you honestly think that AA is going to waste valuable slots in LGA on a money-losing service?

Seriously, this rumour is very childish.


User currently offlineLambertMan From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 2070 posts, RR: 36
Reply 2, posted (9 years 3 months 22 hours ago) and read 5677 times:

Yeah, I think there was an over/under thread on how long this would last.

Ambitious, to say the least.  Smile


User currently offlineSrbmod From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 3, posted (9 years 3 months 21 hours ago) and read 5651 times:

It's true, starts on June 9th. It's a very very dumb move on the part of AA. They wouldn't just be starting a fare war with FL, they'd be starting one with DL as well, since DL offers similar fares on the route as well. Between DL and FL, there are currently 25 RTs a day on the route, using everything from 712s and 73Gs ( FL ) to MD-80s, 752s, 762s and 763s ( DL ). That's quite a number of seats on the route already. While American has a nice amount of cities in which to connect to out of LGA, DL and FL offer a lot more out of ATL. The only city AA/AE offers out LGA that doesn't currently have any NS service out of ATL is BGR; OH does flies to BGR out of BOS and CVG, so either way you'd have to connect in order to get there from ATL.

User currently offlineGroundStop From United States of America, joined Jun 2003, 611 posts, RR: 6
Reply 4, posted (9 years 3 months 21 hours ago) and read 5634 times:

Quoting FLYYUL (Reply 1):
Do you honestly think that AA is going to waste valuable slots in LGA on a money-losing service?

Yes, it starts next month.


User currently offlineHirnie From Germany, joined May 2004, 593 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (9 years 3 months 20 hours ago) and read 5554 times:

Just a guess and I´m sorry for this in advance, but could it be possible that AA wants to upgrade the NY-Area in it`s network?Are they planning to add some more destinations?
I don`t know enough about numbers of freuqeuncies and amount in this area, so take this as a guess from an "outsider"...

Regards


User currently offlineAA787 From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 610 posts, RR: 12
Reply 6, posted (9 years 3 months 20 hours ago) and read 5539 times:

They only have 130 or 131 slots at LGA. Even if they are mad at FL or DL, they would not waste valuable slots at LGA on money losers. They are launching ATL along with CLT, and they must have a certain amount of confidence that they can make money on these flights. And if they dont...what other routes could they possibly launch?

AA787



ET In NYC
User currently offlineFlyingTexan From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 7, posted (9 years 3 months 20 hours ago) and read 5519 times:

Quoting Wjcandee (Thread starter):
They can't get their corporate culture past the old Crandall "punish them if they dare compete with us; hit them where it hurts" mentality.

It’s a favorite pastime in the confines of Fort Worth’s Amon Carter Blvd, one that AA repeats ever so often. They call it the ‘American’ dream; their competitors call it the American ‘wet’ dream…


User currently offlineMAH4546 From Sweden, joined Jan 2001, 32624 posts, RR: 72
Reply 8, posted (9 years 3 months 20 hours ago) and read 5482 times:

It has The route is being launched for a few reasons (some AA won't admit too).

1) To combat Delta for Simplifares.
2) New York City is Atlanta's largest O&D market, with 6,144 passengers per day. That is almost 3,000 more daily passengers than Atlanta's 2nd largest O&D market, Miami. It is a huge market.
3) They are hoping that, with Delta's financial woes, they are in a better situation to lure passengers onto this key business route.
4) They have a huge passenger base in NYC, and Atlanta is a key domestic market from NYC.

That being said, I don't imagine this lasting that long, or at least not with mainline (it will launch as a combo of mainline and Eagle).



a.
User currently offlineShawnnyc From United States of America, joined Mar 2005, 241 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (9 years 3 months 20 hours ago) and read 5453 times:

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 8):
That being said, I don't imagine this lasting that long, or at least not with mainline (it will launch as a combo of mainline and Eagle).

If its Eagle does that mean smaller aircraft than MD80. Atlanta seems far to be in those cramped planes. I flew on of those small jets from LGE to LEB and thought it lasted for ever.


User currently offlineTinPusher007 From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 972 posts, RR: 1
Reply 10, posted (9 years 3 months 19 hours ago) and read 5388 times:

DL is going to take them to the cleaners..LGA is their number one domestic route from ATL...they will defend it at all costs...period.


"Flying isn't inherently dangerous...but very unforgiving of carelessness, incapacity or neglect."
User currently offlineAvek00 From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 4349 posts, RR: 19
Reply 11, posted (9 years 3 months 19 hours ago) and read 5377 times:

The flight is intended to serve as a costly nuisance for FL, in the hopes that FL scales back DFW service.


Live life to the fullest.
User currently offlinePSU.DTW.SCE From United States of America, joined Jan 2002, 7537 posts, RR: 28
Reply 12, posted (9 years 3 months 19 hours ago) and read 5356 times:

Its starting in June with 5 flights: 3 MD-80, 2 ERJ's.

User currently offlineKahala777 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 13, posted (9 years 3 months 19 hours ago) and read 5337 times:

Why dont they operate the route at least 2 x daily to connect with the banks of International flights from JFK?

Regards - Kahala777


User currently offlineCkfred From United States of America, joined Apr 2001, 5182 posts, RR: 1
Reply 14, posted (9 years 3 months 19 hours ago) and read 5321 times:

You have to remember that many companies have contracts with airlines. My wife's company is based in CVG and has a contract with DL. She must fly DL out of ORD if there is non-stop service, unless DL flights are full. So, she has to fly DL to CVG or ATL.

So, if a company in the New York area has a contract with AA and sends a lot of employees to ATL or CLT on business, there are instant passengers for AA's new service.

You also have to remember that not everyone likes DL. A friend of mine who used to fly DL a lot on LGA-ATL hates DL. He used to schedule trips to ATL and Chicago for the same week, just so he could fly AA from ATL to ORD and back to LGA, thus having to fly DL for only one leg.

If there are other New Yorkers with that mindset about DL or US, AA has more potential passengers for ATL and CLT.


User currently offlineWjcandee From United States of America, joined Jun 2000, 5130 posts, RR: 22
Reply 15, posted (9 years 3 months 17 hours ago) and read 5272 times:

Quoting Avek00 (Reply 11):
The flight is intended to serve as a costly nuisance for FL, in the hopes that FL scales back DFW service.

All these comments are interesting. I heard, however, what is quoted here -- it's retaliation against Airtran. I'm still trying to figure out how they figure that they will hurt FL badly enough to make them change their plans at DFW.

NYC may be a big destination market for passengers originating in ATL, but I'm not sure how big a destination market ATL is for pax originating in NYC that aren't associated with an Atlanta-based company. DL and FL clearly pull a huge number of pax through ATL from EWR and LGA (DL has hourly service to EWR with 732s and MD80s, and, as noted above, runs some of its biggest jets (including, depending upon the season, the 767-400) into LGA from ATL. However, it is my understanding that an inordinate amount of their origination traffic in NYC is connecting through ATL to somewhere else. That's been a tradition for decades: to get to the Southeast, other than major Florida markets (FLL, MCO, etc.), you used to take Eastern or DL from LGA through ATL. With slot restrictions at LGA, this is still the case, except Eastern is replaced to a limited extent by Airtran and by USAirways through CLT (except for RJ destinations). And AA has nowhere to connect to (but see below).

AA may indeed pick up some contract business that's originating in NYC to terminate in ATL, but it stands to reason that the ATL based companies have contracts with DL or FL, so the converse is less likely to be true. How often do I see Bill Hemmer from CNN waiting for a flight on DL from LGA-ATL? Or do I sit next to a Coca-Cola employee on DL? True, many companies also have policies that say that the travel department will assign you to the cheapest seat on whatever network carrier is available, and AA can try to get some of that business (they're talking about $169 round-trips on the route, although I don't know what restrictions they are discussing). Bottom line for me is that it seems that AA can get some bottom-of-the-barrel business, they can try to degrade the fares on the route by hoping that DL and FL will have to match them, and they can get some of the NY-based contract and DL-hater business. But that's pretty much it. And they're going to have to hit an awfully-high load factor on an MD80 to break even at the fares they are proposing. How this benefits them, or encourages Airtran to pull out of or limit its expansion in DFW, is beyond me. FL only has to fill 35-or-so seats on a 717 to break even flying to LGA. How bad is AA really going to hurt them?

One thing I did think about tonight (on a flight to ATL from LGA, by the way) was one route on which AA may recapture some business: LGA-DFW. I used to fly that city pair a lot, and AA and DL used to command $1200+ for a one-way coach seat bought within 3 days of departure. It had to be a gigantic moneymaker. The fares were so insane that I personally refused often to pay them, even when my firm's clients were getting the bill. I would take SunJet's Last Flight Out of Newark nonstop, or I would connect through MDW on ATA, for like $129. In the intervening years, I understand that many, many people began to do the same thing. The LGA-MDW-DFW and LGA-ATL-DFW routes apparently do get a significant number of pax. And why not? Coach one way on AA? Or round-trip in business on one of the discount carriers? Unless time is incredibly important, that's a lot of money to save for an extra hour-and-a-half of travel time. If AA enters LGA through ATL, it could recapture some of that traffic with low connecting fares without sacrificing the nonstop fares. Or, as I originally noted, they could end up hurting *themselves* on the DFW-LGA route, because now AA loyalists' companies may want to know why they spent a zillion $$ on a nonstop ticket when a connection on the same airline through ATL was so much cheaper. Guess we'll have to see about that one.

Maybe they are geniuses. Maybe they will crush FL by this bold move. Or maybe this will end up being LGB-JFK and SNA-JFK all over again.

I'm so glad that they "know why I fly". It's too bad that what they do at their company doesn't reflect this "knowledge".

Best,

Bill

[Edited 2005-05-04 07:34:17]

User currently offlineEjmmsu From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 1692 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (9 years 3 months 17 hours ago) and read 5241 times:

Before this service was started, I suggested to AA loaylists an easy and fun connection in BNA to fly from LGA to ATL. The BNA-ATL leg is on a J31, a fun little prop.

If the fare was similar, I would take this just because it is fun.



"If the facts do not conform to the theory, they will have to be disposed of"
User currently offlineWjcandee From United States of America, joined Jun 2000, 5130 posts, RR: 22
Reply 17, posted (9 years 3 months 17 hours ago) and read 5226 times:

PS Groundstop, if you would be so kind, please spank the Jetway Driver that left us (373) sitting at C18 for ten minutes at 11:10pm -- we were marshalled right in but just sat there while the Captain tried to make jokes through the open door and several radio calls to find someone. I would have done it myself, but he had wisely fled by the time I exited -- and I was about the fifth person off. As I'm sure you know, waiting for ten minutes to be marshalled in (as another airline did to me Monday) to an open gate that everyone can see has nobody around it, or pulling up to a dark jetway that stays that way for ten minutes, just makes otherwise-happy passengers insane. Everyone assumes that it happens because "the airline doesn't care", rather than because some individual, anonymous fatass wasn't paying attention. I usually bide my time thinking of some new creative torture that I will in my dreams inflict upon this miscreant; it seems to help.

Best,

Bill

[Edited 2005-05-04 07:53:19]

User currently offlineFleet Service From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 622 posts, RR: 2
Reply 18, posted (9 years 3 months 12 hours ago) and read 5168 times:

Sorry to disappoint you Bill, but from the checking I've been doing in SABRE, those LGA-ATL flights are already well booked.

The idea of flying direct LGA-ATL has some appeal to folks who prefer a nonstop as opposed to a connection through a hub station.

Another point you overlooked was the fact AA basically matched DL's "Simplifares" across much of the network, so its not like we're charging $1,200.00 on the route when DL and FL are charging $169.00.

It's been proven that when the prices are the same, people will fly AA.The AAdvantge program is a poweful addiction to overcome.



Yes, I actually *do* work for an airline,how about you?
User currently offlineLear35pilot From United States of America, joined Sep 2000, 41 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (9 years 3 months 10 hours ago) and read 5112 times:

Whatever AA's reasoning is for launching this new service pair, I for one will be flying them to ATL. Having just left the DL Medallion FFP for AAdvantage, I will definately be on one of the first LGA-ATL flights in early June.

User currently offlineJunction From United States of America, joined Mar 2005, 766 posts, RR: 0
Reply 20, posted (9 years 3 months 9 hours ago) and read 5043 times:

Quoting Wjcandee (Reply 17):
Jetway Driver that left us (373) sitting at C18 for ten minutes at 11:10pm

Just out of curiosity, did your flight happen to arrive early? I have noticed it basically doesn’t do any good to arrive early anymore, because you just have to sit and wait for a gate (or gate agent) until the scheduled time anyway. This is especially true at hubs. I would guess it's do to tight scheduling and staff shortages for the most part.


User currently offlineWjcandee From United States of America, joined Jun 2000, 5130 posts, RR: 22
Reply 21, posted (9 years 3 months 8 hours ago) and read 5004 times:

Junction: This flight was basically on-time, and the ground marshalls were right there (and the lav truck pulled up as soon as we parked at the gate). Only the jetway driver was absent. The captain said it happens *every night* on this route.

The DL flight where we sat in the alley staring at an open gate this week *was* early. In fact, the pilot dejectedly announced to the aircraft, "doesn't pay to be early any more". This is a real problem, given how heavily padded most schedules are these days (in an attempt to raise "on time" performance). If you fly down without waiting forever to take off, and the weather is clear, and the flight is uneventful, you *will* be early. For an airline then to force you to sit there in the a/c because the flight is "early" would suck beyond belief. At Delta, this is probably one of many ways in which layoffs/early retirements of experienced people have resulted in chinks in the system. This sure would have been a rarity in the old days.

Best,

Bill


User currently offlineCkfred From United States of America, joined Apr 2001, 5182 posts, RR: 1
Reply 22, posted (9 years 3 months 5 hours ago) and read 4848 times:

One other point, although a minor one. Several years ago, all DL flights out of ATL for BOS, LGA, EWR, DFW, and ORD departed from the T gates. I think that has changed.

I do remember that when B6 was flying ATL-LGB, all DL flights for LAX departed from T, but I know that flights for ORD often depart from A or B, and once in a while, E.

Since AA is located on Concourse T, it certainly offers a much easier departure procedure for those going to LGA by bypassing the main security checkpoint and the mob scene at the South Terminal ticketing area.


User currently offlineJrlander From United States of America, joined Aug 1999, 1104 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (9 years 3 months 4 hours ago) and read 4808 times:

Any guesses on Delta's response?

New York to Chicago flights, maybe? (other than the daily CRJ from JFK-ORD)


User currently offlineLGAtoIND From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 490 posts, RR: 1
Reply 24, posted (9 years 3 months 3 hours ago) and read 4763 times:

Why dosen't Delta start 3x Daily MD80s nonstop from LGA-DFW? Since they used to fly the route, they still probably have loyal customers in LGA and DFW. They could get back at AA and still make money with a route with virtually no competition. Also, maybe LGA-MIA on Song could work?

25 Post contains images SESGDL : Right , as if you were told by the billions of passengers in the country that if they could fly any airline that they would fly AA. DL's frequent fli
26 Jfkaua : Don't forget my favorite 764 one flight daily i believe.
27 AA767400 : Good for you Jeremy, and that is what makes the world turn. You like DL, and others like AA. Fact is that AAdvantage is the first and still has a lar
28 B4real : 'Cuz DFW didn't work for DL. DFW is AA territory and DAL has WN. I actually think AA will keep the flights, maybe not five of them, but some of them
29 TinPusher007 : This route will ultimately fail for AA IMHO...I hope DL does retaliate!
30 Ejmmsu : This is an overly siplistic analysis. DFW did not work for DL as a full hub for several reasons. There were, however, many individual routes that did
31 TinPusher007 : If this was the case, why didn't they simply add more mainline capacity? I never quite understood why they couldn't make DFW work. Thank God DL has A
32 Ejmmsu : They didn't add mainline capacity because they didn't have the equipment. This was due to their fleet stratagy and their strategy for DFW. They thoug
33 TinPusher007 : This is exactly what I mean about DL being a weak competitor. I think the idea of AA flying LGA-ATL is absurd...but at least they have the balls to C
34 SHUPirate1 : Let me run the destinations of the three largest carriers at LGA, and their O&D traffic ranking, by you people, as of July 6, 2005 (note that only dom
35 TinPusher007 : How can DCA be AA's number 1 destination when they only serve it with RJ's. Wouldn't ORD be AA's number 1.
36 SHUPirate1 : TinPusher-DCA is not AA's #1 destination from LGA. DCA is LGA's #1 destination period.
37 Thucydides : No, you can't tell that AA is most interested in O&D traffic by these numbers. Right, and the bulk of these passengers are carried by the DL and USAi
38 TinPusher007 : OK...I didn't quite understand what I was reading...thanx!
39 Wjcandee : I'm confused. Is ATL the number 2 destination from LGA for pax TERMINATING in ATL, or is it No. 2 for ALL pax going to or through ATL? Makes a big dif
40 Post contains links BigPhilNYC : http://www.nycaviation.com/news.html
41 SHUPirate1 : Yes, those are O&D traffic numbers for passengers going to LaGuardia Airport. A passenger flying ATL-IAD-LGA on United is counted as an ATL-LGA passen
42 Wjcandee : You know, I took this statement on faith, given the background stated by this member. But it gnawed at me. After all, the service doesn't start for a
43 N160LH : You are a 100% correct.... They will drop this in a matter of months. DL flights between LGA ATL are always cattle cars.... AA Messing with DL in ATL
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