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WN And Canada  
User currently offlineChrisNH From United States of America, joined Jun 1999, 4164 posts, RR: 2
Posted (9 years 7 months 3 weeks 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 5524 times:

If Southwest Airlines were to expand to Canada, would they need approval from the Canadian government or is there an 'Open Skies' agreement in place between the U.S. and Canada? I've thought that the Canadian Maritimes would be great for Southwest; other cities in Canada, too. If Southwest wants to grow in the lower 48, they will bump into competition almost anywhere. Places like Halifax and St. John may seem 'too small,' but there are plenty of 'too small' cities in the U.S. that Southwest serves quite successfully. How easy is it for someone in Halifax or St. John to get to, say, Nashville or Orlando? Seems like a natural to give people up there access to the lower 48 that Southwest can provide.

I just didn't know whether the Canadian government would 'prevent' Southwest from entering their country because of the potential damage it might cause to Air Canada.

Chris in NH

47 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineFLYYUL From Italy, joined Jun 2000, 5010 posts, RR: 51
Reply 1, posted (9 years 7 months 3 weeks 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 5500 times:

Dear Chris in NH,

There is an open skies agreement.

Southwest would not suceed in small Canadian cities. This is not a function of under-service, its a simple function of market size.

Southwest would, and could never suceed in Halifax/St-John's/Winnipeg etc.


User currently offlineN1120A From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 26812 posts, RR: 75
Reply 2, posted (9 years 7 months 3 weeks 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 5504 times:

Quoting FLYYUL (Reply 1):
Southwest would, and could never suceed in Halifax/St-John's/Winnipeg etc.

Would you say the same thing about HRL, JAN, GEG, MHT, AMA, BOI, BUF, BDL?



Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
User currently offlineFLYYUL From Italy, joined Jun 2000, 5010 posts, RR: 51
Reply 3, posted (9 years 7 months 3 weeks 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 5490 times:

Sir,

As you may or may not have noticed, Canada is different country. It has a different culture, even though its closely linked to American culture. Canadians do not travel to the United States, at nearly the same rate as Americans travel within their borders. So your point of comparison is not quite applicable.

That being said, I am willing bet you my life savings that BUF-BWI or BUF-Midway market size and potential is much higher, exactly for the reasons stated above.

Further to this, Southwest's fares would need to below cost, given the fact that there is a 60-70% fees and surcharge rates imposed on US/Canada tickets. Thats right, go to www.aircanada and price a Halifax-Boston, and wait till you see the end result  Wink

Again, if Southwest came to Canada, it would be to Montreal, TOronto, Calgary, Vancouver.

Even then, if there was such a high demand for the LCC phenomenon, why are carriers like WestJet/Canjet sticking to your usual high-leisure US markets like PHX/FLL/MCO/SFO/LAX etc... safe for LGA.


User currently offlineN1120A From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 26812 posts, RR: 75
Reply 4, posted (9 years 7 months 3 weeks 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 5429 times:

Quoting FLYYUL (Reply 3):
r usual high-leisure US markets like PHX/FLL/MCO/SFO/LAX etc...

2 of those are among the largest BUSINESS destinations in the world.

Quoting FLYYUL (Reply 3):
As you may or may not have noticed, Canada is different country.

Really? Is that why they call it Canada?  crazy 

Quoting FLYYUL (Reply 3):
It has a different culture, even though its closely linked to American culture.

I am very well aware of that as well

Quoting FLYYUL (Reply 3):
So your point of comparison is not quite applicable.

Yes, it is. Halifax and Winnipeg are larger cities than many of the ones I mentioned. Add to that, Winnipeg is also a business destination and is close to the border. WN would not dismiss those cities as quickly as you would think. The same can be said with AC, which flies to many smaller US cities



Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
User currently offlineAC345YYZ From United States of America, joined Jan 2005, 55 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (9 years 7 months 3 weeks 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 5401 times:

FLYYUL, says who that Canadians do not travel to the United States, the main gateway for Canadians on Vacation is the United States, Try YYZ at 5am in the middle of march, the majority of flights are leaving to the U.S.


AC345YYZ
User currently offlineBOSPMV From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 305 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (9 years 7 months 3 weeks 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 5396 times:

I just priced a flight, for example, June 10-17, there are 3 n/s, all 3 were less than $150, not to bad at all. In fact, I am surprised at how low these fares are, $99 roundtrip to Montreal, Toronto is only $122. Vancouver is only $252.

User currently offlineFlyingTexan From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 7, posted (9 years 7 months 3 weeks 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 5398 times:

Quoting ChrisNH (Thread starter):
Places like Halifax and St. John may seem 'too small,' but there are plenty of 'too small' cities in the U.S. that Southwest serves quite successfully

Saint John, NB or St. John’s, NF?

Quoting ChrisNH (Thread starter):
How easy is it for someone in Halifax or St. John to get to, say, Nashville or Orlando?

Easy enough. One stop service thru BOS. Price is another thing - its hit or miss.

My parents live in their homeland - New Brunswick, 3 hours Fredericton, and 2 hours to Bangor, Maine. Comair offers 2 daily CRJs to YFC from Logan. I’ve been able to score some excellent deals on Delta from Las Vegas. But, YFC is a bit of a quagmire to get to as it requires a ferry from their place – which is unpunctual at best and seasonal - or crossing the international border twice (Campobello is unique as it is connected to the US Maineland but not to mainland Canada).

Traveling around the Maritimes/Atlantic Provinces is not the bargain traveling in the States is. Given the size and remoteness of some cities, it’s still an OK deal with what I consider sufficient service from Air Canada and WestJet.

Bangor can sometimes be lethal with fares, so I find myself taking the Concord Trailways from Bangor to Boston, where there is an overabundance of competition (read: low fares) or going to MHT where I find my beloved Southwest. Coex will be flying to BGR this summer 2x daily ERJs to EWR, reduced to 1x daily in the fall.

Portland is getting better with the advent of FlyI.

Keep in mind, setting up an international station is very expensive and commencing international service brings a whole host of other factors into the picture.


User currently offlineSrbmod From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 8, posted (9 years 7 months 3 weeks 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 5350 times:

Southwest will never start service into Canada as it does not fit their operations. Even with the ease of clearing customs on US-Canada flights, delays are common due to Customs issues. Then you have to add another currency for paying rent, parking and landing fees, fuel, payroll, and currency conversion adds to the costs as well. And then you throw YUL in the mix and then you have to have French-speaking employees in addition to English speaking employees. Plus having to do dual language signs, tickets, etc.

User currently offlineFLYYUL From Italy, joined Jun 2000, 5010 posts, RR: 51
Reply 9, posted (9 years 7 months 3 weeks 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 5222 times:

AC345.

Says me.

Of the 28 million pax that travelled through pearson last year, only 8 mil were Transborder.

Of the 10.5 million at YUL, only 2.7 million were transborder.

Of the 14.5 million at YVR, only 4 million were transborder.

So no, Canadians dont travel with the same propensity, or dont travel as nearly per capita within the USA as Americans do.

So even if Halifax is a travel market of 2 or 3 million pax, only a good 4/500,000-600,000 are transborder (Canada-USA).


User currently offlineYyz717 From Canada, joined Sep 2001, 16367 posts, RR: 56
Reply 10, posted (9 years 7 months 3 weeks 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 5158 times:

WN is very well known in Canada. I'm sure that if they added YYZ, YHM, YYC or YVR, Cdns would flock to them.

WN is known for creating addl pax demand when they add markets and routes. I'm sure the same would happen if they added Cdn markets. '



Panam, TWA, Ansett, Eastern.......AC next? Might be good for Canada.
User currently offlineCkfred From United States of America, joined Apr 2001, 5310 posts, RR: 1
Reply 11, posted (9 years 7 months 3 weeks 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 5106 times:

A friend of mine who flies for AA has discussed this issue with WN pilots riding in the jumpseats. Here are the common reasons why WN has no interest in Canada:

1. While Canada and the U.S. have an open-skies agreement, there is still a process for new entrants into the transborder market. WN management feels the time and expense for getting cleared by Washington and Ottawa to fly transborder are too great.

2. Since WN works on a business model that has low fares, it doesn't want to deal with fluctuations between the U.S. dollar and the Canadian dollar. It makes pricing tickets sold in Canada too complicated.

3. Fuel, landing fees, gate rental, catering, crew hotels and transportation, ground handling, salaries for airport personnel, etc., have to be paid in Canadian dollars. This makes pricing tickets tricky, since Canadian costs are going to fluctuate some.

4. Since Canada has a federal sales tax, that also throws WN's pricing out of whack. For the most part, trips of similar distances have similar fares. Because of Canadian taxes, a flight between the U.S. and Canada might be more expensive than a domestic flight of similar distance.

I have no way of knowing how valid these reasons are, but since WN has stuck to the business model that has made it so successful, I don't see them starting transborder service anytime soon.

If they did, however, I do think they would give AC, WestJet, CanJet, and the U.S. carriers a lot of competition.


User currently offlineScottB From United States of America, joined Jul 2000, 6826 posts, RR: 32
Reply 12, posted (9 years 7 months 3 weeks 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 5090 times:

Quoting BOSPMV (Reply 6):
Toronto is only $122

I'm pretty sure that is US $122 each way, and the various taxes and fees add an extra $65 on top of that for a total of $310 round-trip.

While Halifax is a reasonably-sized city, the overall demand for travel to the U.S. from there is limited. While there certainly is some demand for transborder business and leisure travel, it's nothing like the demand for domestic Canadian or domestic U.S. demand.


User currently offlineBOSPMV From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 305 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (9 years 7 months 3 weeks 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 5053 times:

chris, do you choose to fly out of mht over bos?

User currently offlineCXYYZ From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 14, posted (9 years 7 months 3 weeks 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 4884 times:

Quoting Yyz717 (Reply 10):
WN is very well known in Canada. I'm sure that if they added YYZ, YHM, YYC or YVR, Cdns would flock to them.

WN is known for creating addl pax demand when they add markets and routes. I'm sure the same would happen if they added Cdn markets. '

Why would we "flock" to WN? We have WestJet and it has, arguably, a superior inflight product to WN and it's a home grown name that we hear of far more often than Southwest and already has an established positive image.

WestJet and Canjet are already creating new demand, I don't know what WN would be able to do that would manage to create any further demand than the incumbent LCCs could if they were to decide to serve more transborder routes.

I would welcome Southwest to Canada but I don't think it makes as much sense for them to enter the market here as some seem to think it does.


User currently offlineOlympus69 From Canada, joined Jun 2002, 1737 posts, RR: 7
Reply 15, posted (9 years 7 months 3 weeks 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 4792 times:

Quoting FLYYUL (Reply 9):
Of the 28 million pax that travelled through Pearson last year, only 8 mil were Transborder.

That 'only 8 million' works out to nearly 22,000 transborder passengers a day. That sounds like a pretty significant number to me.


User currently offlineYyz717 From Canada, joined Sep 2001, 16367 posts, RR: 56
Reply 16, posted (9 years 7 months 3 weeks 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 4789 times:

Quoting CXYYZ (Reply 14):
Quoting Yyz717 (Reply 10):
WN is very well known in Canada. I'm sure that if they added YYZ, YHM, YYC or YVR, Cdns would flock to them.

WN is known for creating addl pax demand when they add markets and routes. I'm sure the same would happen if they added Cdn markets. '

Why would we "flock" to WN? We have WestJet and it has, arguably, a superior inflight product to WN and it's a home grown name that we hear of far more often than Southwest and already has an established positive image.

We would flock to them because they (would) offer cheap fares and frequencies, and the brand is well-known and respected. Many Cdns already drive to BUF daily to fly AirTran and WN.

Quoting CXYYZ (Reply 14):
I don't know what WN would be able to do that would manage to create any further demand than the incumbent LCCs could if they were to decide to serve more transborder routes.

WN increases the size of any market they enter into. There is alot of oppty for addl demand to US cities if prices were lower. The largest player on US-Canada routes is AC which continues to maintain a high cost structure which keeps fares high.



Panam, TWA, Ansett, Eastern.......AC next? Might be good for Canada.
User currently offlineStirling From Italy, joined Jun 2004, 3943 posts, RR: 21
Reply 17, posted (9 years 7 months 3 weeks 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 4750 times:

Quoting Olympus69 (Reply 15):
That 'only 8 million' works out to nearly 22,000 transborder passengers a day. That sounds like a pretty significant number to me.

Or 28% of the market....I would say 1 out 4 passengers using Pearson to travel to U.S. points is significant indeed.



Delete this User
User currently offlineEMBQA From United States of America, joined Oct 2003, 9364 posts, RR: 11
Reply 18, posted (9 years 7 months 3 weeks 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 4677 times:

We can talk about WN and Canada all we want, but you'll never see them they international. First, there operating certificate doesn't allow them to fly international....and second, it doesn't fit into their quick turn model. They clearly have something that is not broken, and they will not change it.


"It's not the size of the dog in the fight, but the size of the fight in the dog"
User currently offlineJacobin777 From United States of America, joined Sep 2004, 14968 posts, RR: 59
Reply 19, posted (9 years 7 months 3 weeks 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 4582 times:

Quoting EMBQA (Reply 18):
First, there operating certificate doesn't allow them to fly international...

that can be changed without too much of a problem...

Quoting EMBQA (Reply 18):
it doesn't fit into their quick turn model. They clearly have something that is not broken, and they will not change it.

depends.. PHL-YYZ-PHL is certainly going to be much shorter flight than MDW-OAK-MDW route by a few hours....I also wouldn't be surprised that they would be able to have a quick operational turnaround too.



"Up the Irons!"
User currently offlineAC787 From Canada, joined Mar 2005, 337 posts, RR: 1
Reply 20, posted (9 years 7 months 3 weeks 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 4534 times:

Quoting Yyz717 (Reply 16):
AC which continues to maintain a high cost structure which keeps fares high.

There cost structure has improved greatly since exiting bk and there prices to the states have actually been reasonably priced from my own experience. Throw in there new embraers and CRJ700's and theyll open up new routes and make the ones they operate transborder even more profitable. AC's operations into the states seem to be on the right track.

AC787


User currently offlineRogerThat From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 566 posts, RR: 0
Reply 21, posted (9 years 7 months 3 weeks 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 4484 times:

I seem to remember hearing about lots of Montreal Canadians driving to Burlington, VT to pick up PeoplExpress flights. If the price is right anything could happen.

At one time or another, you could say Southwest was:

1. A small intra-state Texas carrier
2. Expanding but keeping out of the way of the big dogs
3. Never going to fly into the congested Northeast

How about: DAL - YYZ, LAX - YVR or even DAL - MEX.


User currently offlineAtmx2000 From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 4576 posts, RR: 37
Reply 22, posted (9 years 7 months 3 weeks 3 days ago) and read 4431 times:

DAL - YYZ or DAL - MEX

Wouldn't the Wright Amendment prevent this, or at least the lack of customs at DAL?



ConcordeBoy is a twin supremacist!! He supports quadicide!!
User currently offlineSHUPirate1 From United States of America, joined Sep 2003, 3670 posts, RR: 16
Reply 23, posted (9 years 7 months 3 weeks 3 days ago) and read 4391 times:

Quoting Atmx2000 (Reply 22):
Wouldn't the Wright Amendment prevent this, or at least the lack of customs at DAL?

The lack of customs would not prevent that, simply on the basis that there ARE customs at Love Field. I am not sure if it is a large enough presence for a 737-700 on an international flight from Mexico City, but there is certainly a presence. My question, actually, would be why doesn't Air Canada fly their CRJ's to Toronto from Love Field rather than the monster at Dallas-Fort Worth?



Burma's constitutional referendum options: A. Yes, B. Go to Insein Prison!
User currently offlineEMBQA From United States of America, joined Oct 2003, 9364 posts, RR: 11
Reply 24, posted (9 years 7 months 3 weeks 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 3591 times:

....I also wouldn't be surprised that they would be able to have a quick operational turnaround too.

The Southwest model is a 20 minute ground time....you will NEVER get that flying international. The time required just to clear Customs is much longer then that, plus the added fee's and requirements to fly international just do not work for Southwest. This topic has been brought up before and the consensus of those in the industry is a firm no-never.



"It's not the size of the dog in the fight, but the size of the fight in the dog"
25 Sebring : A 20-minute turnaround at YYZ? It's more like a 20-minute taxi between the runway and the terminal. I kid you not. The fact is, about two-thirds of al
26 DfwRevolution : WN hasn't been doing 20 minute turns for a long time. While capable of 20 minute turns at some stations, WN schedules about 28 minutes for a turn, al
27 EMBQA : WN hasn't been doing 20 minute turns for a long time. While capable of 20 minute turns at some stations, WN schedules about 28 minutes for a turn, all
28 DfwRevolution : That's 40% more time than you cared to admit Why not? First, unless there is some rule that I'm unaware of, immigration doesn't happen at the L1 door
29 FlyingTexan : Chicago? Besides, WN doesn’t rely on hub and spoke entirely for their operations. Burlington has no Southwest but low fares compliments of B6. DFW,
30 MKEdude : WN has never pursued any international routes, however that is not to say that someday they might. (The ATA deal proves their willingness to think bey
31 Byrdluvs747 : God no. In fact, WN nowhere outside us borders. The last thing I want to see is WN dumping it's hoards in CUN.
32 Yyz717 : All this "analysis" about why WN would "never" fly to Canada or Mexico is fine, but things can change quickly in the airline industry. If the mandarin
33 SCCutler : ??? What does this mean?
34 RogerThat : I think SCCutler is trying to say that Southwest's clientele is trailer park trash and has no bidness going to the upper crust resorts of Cancun.
35 CXH : Whenever I've flown out of yyz it seems to take at least 5~10 minutes to taxi + wait, and 20 minutes during peak hours sounds typical. (I'm flying YV
36 AussieItaliano : One reason why WN is not going to fly to Canada anytime soon is because they still see other cities in the US that are in need of the "Southwest Effec
37 Post contains images Goose : Yes, we can't have those unwashed masses going on vacation in Mexico. .... if they have the money to pay for it, then let 'em spend it. I'm sure ther
38 Sccutler : No, SCCutler was confused by the prior post, knowing not what it meant. SCCutler thinks WN's clientele are among the best-heeled and most discriminat
39 RogerThat : RogerThat once told his dad how the passengers waiting to board Southwest's Burbank to Las Vegas flight looked like convicts waiting for the next bus
40 Avek00 : Yes it does, actually - the aircraft itself can be required to undergo Customs and security inspections, and the crew subjected to Immigration checks
41 Dacman : As a Southwest employee I have learned to say "Never say Never" about our airline. I'm not saying we are going to start service to Canada tomorrow, bu
42 OzarkD9S : Southwest has ATA for any and ALL international ventures. Southwest has literally hundreds, maybe thousands of domestic opportunities. There is always
43 CanadaEH : We just did a review of our OTP and have adjusted the block times to more acurately reflect flight performance, adjusted block times in Tier 1 bases
44 AirplanePeanut : 122+65=187 187x2=374 64 dollars is a big difference to budget people.
45 ScottB : $65 TOTAL, not each way. $122+$122+$65 = $309. Actually, it was closer to $311 because the taxes were something like $66.70 but $65 was close enough.
46 DesertJets : I am glad that somebody mentioned that, finally. But at times it seems that some here think that Moses himself came down from Mt. Sinai with Southwes
47 CanadaEH : When you operate in a country the size of Canada (population 32M'ish) you run out of growth opportunities within the border fairly quick. A Canadian
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